The Reason The LTD Isn't Selling...

csv8 · 21-01-2007, 09:08 PM

LTD RRP from $75,525*Barra 230 - 5.4L V8 engine

Select an engine/transmission type:

Caprice 3.6L 5 speed automatic High Output Alloytec V6 $65,990.00 RRP*
Caprice 6.0L 6 speed automatic Generation 4 Alloy V8 $69,990.00 RRP*

For starters, there is a $5500 price advantage to the Caprice. Then the equipment levels are higher in the Caprice.
So, if buying a LWB car, you choose the Caprice over the LTD.
Ford needs to adjust pricing and equipment levels, if they want the LTD to sell..

ltd · 21-01-2007, 09:39 PM

Well, my company owns a few and to be perfectly honest, you're quite correct.
The AU2 I have still has a much nicer and fancier interior than the BF, BA mk2 and the BA is resultantly for sale.
I have noticed the BF2 Fairmont Ghia has a beautiful interior in the cream leather and that should be applied to the LTD especially in areas where they can cover over some of the plastic.
As for the engines, I agree there too but I think the car would look silly with a bonnet bulge to accomodate the 260 boss motor. Perhaps they could upgrade the power on the LTD to 240 or 250. Furthermore, they could offer the 6 turbo engine as an option on all of their LWB cars as that would really blow some smoke up the generals proverbial.
The cars are generally lacking in bling and whilst they may have the chrome mirror scalps, giving them the same wheels as a fairlane ghia is a big no for differentiation.
Firstly, what ford should do is give them the upgraded front end of the BF mk2 and then find some chrome wheels to put on LTD. Also, spend the extra $5.00 and make the interior command console woodgrain as well instead of that onyx garbage they have now. The message is supposed to be opulence whereas now holden have gone sport. Limo drivers want something that says "Hey, I'm big, brash and outrageously full of elegance that luxuriates around you - and I aint no falcon".
Xenon lights would be a good start, the kits cost around $300.00, and for gods sake, put the bonnet emblem back on instead of that cheap, easily chipped strip of plastic chrome crap.

If ford have trouble understanding what people want out of their luxury LWB cars then they should look at the W220 S class interior and work their way down from there.
Then they should look at an AU2 LTD and an AU forte and spot the differences. That might help a bit. If not, give up and get the damn Lincoln town cars over here before they too become extinct. If they do, I'll order 3 Ultimates tomorrow, and Alf up the road will put an order in for 16.
My 2cents anyway.

peterban · 21-01-2007, 09:45 PM

I agree except that instead of having a seperate radio/cd player and GPS they should have combined it into a double din touch screen to do both in the AU

chevypower · 21-01-2007, 09:49 PM

this is what i posted in the "Fairlanes future" thread about a week or so ago

I have read some good theories about why the Fairlane isnt doing so well, and some shocking theories to improve sales. I dont think sticking some garnish is going to make it a better car, or even a better selling car. Sticking a Boss 260/290 in it won't make it more appealing to the general public either, might in fact work against it (although it will appeal to a few Ford fans, i dont think sales will go up). Putting a 5 inch digital speedo is not the answer either. (these are answers of the past)
I believe people are moving away from this segment in general for a few reasons. People used to buy these things because they had that little bit more in them, the comfort levels were exceptional and unmatched power. These days, with high fuel prices, people dont want the highest litreage engines possible, they want good performance with a balance of fuel economy. They want to feel unlimited with their vehicles, and versatile so a lot of sales goes towards SUVs and cross-overs. Imports are taking away sales also, with less sales tax on them these days. This is a good thing, they shouldnt be forced to buy a Fairlane which might not suit them as much. Cars that are dedicated luxury cars dont have much over any other car these days. Any feature you want in a car, you can just about have in any car you want. You can get performance in any other car segment too.

For the Fairlane to really work now, it has to match the European cars in looks and quality, should have rear heated and cooled reclining seats, have world class direct injection, diesel and hybrid power, air suspension, resemble an S-Class, 7 Series, A8 or Maybach basically for a lot less money. If it's nothing special like that. It wont really work.

ltd · 21-01-2007, 10:16 PM

chevy I take your point, but for a completely different look that will set it apart from the falcons Ford would have to invest in new tooling for what you have correctly identified as a shrinking market.
Don't get me wrong, the BA upwards was infinitely better than the AU2 in terms of the drive, ride and power, but it just doesn't look the part of its older sibling. Also, one fundamental flaw with the BA up is the rear seat. The AU2 rear seat inspired passengers to sleep with its ultra comfortable cushioning, the BA on the other hand is like a corolla rear seat in leather.
They can make the car look fancier than the existing car for no tooling costs, as they already produce the front end for BF2.
What is needed though is that extra special feel you get when you get into the AU2 and the ridiculous lavishness that ensues.
I don't think a massive motor would sell more, I was looking at it from the point of view of keeping at least within an earshot of Holden.

jimmy_c · 21-01-2007, 10:32 PM

I will be blatantly rude here. After owning my BA and driving Various things such as BA Fairlane Ghia and an LTD.

I was most uninpressed, for the features and costs and the power these things have they are so over priced its not funny.

The AU - AUIII upspec interior shits over anything that is current in the BA-BF high series range.

If i was to buy a new car it wouldnt be a Fairmont Ghia, Fairlane or LTD for the pure fact that it has nothing over a Fairmont /Ghia spec car.

It needs the following:

1. Upgraded interior -nothing that remotely looks like it came from a SWB cousin
2. More woodgrain / chrome
3. Decent engine choices 260kw v8 / turbo option
4. Sunroof std in LTD with rear dvd player and dual screens.
5. Better choice of wheels and options
6. a.Fairlane Ghia (grandpa/fleet/govt) b. Spots model not just sports suspension and different rims (maybe a XR front or style front) , c. LTD maybe jaguar inspired

As a die hard ford fan i would take a new stato or caprice. This is how underwhelmed i am with the current crop of LWB cars.

LTD i fully agree with you even in my GHIA it doesnt feel any more special than the current XT/Futura i have at work.

Lukeyson · 21-01-2007, 10:53 PM

agree with you chevypower, the Caprice catches my eye, especially in black. I see a LTD i go 'oh wow someone bought one'.

IMO they need to drop the 80's fake wood grain, if its not real wood, p!ss it orf ! They need a nice classy leather interior, classy dash, and no options, because it comes with the lot !

And really, it should be turbo I6 or 3v V8

MITCHAY · 21-01-2007, 11:05 PM

An LTD to me is a wider and stretched XT look wise. Definately wouldn't be spending money there.

For the money I'd want it to look different on the outside, but as some have said that would probably cost more than what it is worth to do.

Zedjay · 21-01-2007, 11:28 PM

my dad has been buying LTDs since the 70s his had a P5,P6,FC,FD,FE,DC11,and has been driving a NL concorde since 98.

when i asked him why he's hung onto this one so long he said "i was going to buy an AU LTD but they stoped making them before i got around to it,so i looked at the BA model fairlane and LTD and thought they look to much like the falcon"

so there you have it straight from the mouth of a man that has been driving LTDs since they first came out in 73.

in my (and my old mans) opinion the next failane/LTD better look nothing like a falcon.

do you reckon the NA,NC,DA,DCs would have sold as well as they did if they had EA sheet metal front and rear lol

Dave_au · 21-01-2007, 11:58 PM

That and the fact it looks like a dated design - and a taxi.

watever · 22-01-2007, 12:59 AM

why would anyone want to spend 75k on a XT with leather?
Even the most one eyed ford man will turn his head and look at the stato/caprice.

b2tf · 22-01-2007, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR8fella

I see a LTD i go 'oh wow someone bought one

: same

LTDHO · 22-01-2007, 07:25 AM

Ford have no interest in LTD.

For the last few years they have been killing it off. You will see that in the past the LTD was more expencive with less. The only people buying them were the loyal LTD owners, FoMoCo Aust killed them off. Now they will stop making them due to lack of sales.. Go figure.

ltd · 22-01-2007, 07:47 AM

You guys have hit the nail on the head.
I know this segment. I know these cars as we have owned dozens of them.
To be brutally honest the last 4 LTD's have come from government auction. Less than a year old, 15,000 klm and between 42-45 grand. This is opposed to the 75 grand ford want plus on roads for one. I'd rather keep the 30 change.
Up until the AU's we had we used to buy them from a dealer; as they were special, nice cars. Now, can't do it except for the BF fairlane, bought that new and the BF interior was much better than the boring BA.
Tell you one thing ford could do; give the lwb cars a different colour or two. A colour you can't get on any other Ford so that it truly sends a message. Sort of like the S class silver with sky blue overtones, or pearl white like lincoln does.
Like I said, the overall car in terms of drivability isn't bad, it's infinitely better to drive than the AU2 but, and this is a big but, the inside is boring. The outside does not inspire either (yes it is better than before ie BF compared to BA, and the fairlanes look fancier than the AU equivalents), but ford really have to do something with the flagship. Finally, I don't know why but the BA mk1 and 2 had that stupid 4 speed auto that used to hold in 3rd gear until you hit between 68-70kph. This was one of the dumbest things ever to be driving a v8 around town doing the speed limit and you're sitting on almost 2 grand. The Au2's we had all changed gears and were loping around doing 1000 rpm in a 60 zone - and the car had much better fuel economy as a result.
Why Ford did this I will never know, and unless they ask questions like these of themselves then maybe they won't get a shot to answer them in the future.

**russellw** · 22-01-2007, 09:03 AM

The sales numbers being racked up in this segment actually belie the comment that people are moving away from this style of car with the Caprice actually outselling the Statesman since the launch (by a narrow margin) and outselling the LTD 46:1.

Why?

The price drop for both their models was a big help obviously but the biggest reason is simply the perceived value equation and the fact that there is sufficient differentation between models that you don't mistake either of them for their lesser siblings.

It's a continual source of frustration to me that Ford have managed to sell a segment that they owned, down the river in such a big way. In the heyday years Ford were selling 2200 LTD's (P5 and P6) per year and 9-10,000 Fairlanes (ZB/ZC) compared to the 50 odd LTD's and just over 1,000 Fairlanes that found homes last year.

You'd assume that they have zero interest in them and that they will go the way of the dinosaur in the near future.

Russ

Fairlane · 22-01-2007, 10:11 AM

Well the LTD in its current state is a joke, it obviously suffers from the same afflictions as Fairlane- Lack of differentation (Looks like a Futura), Lack of equipment, Lack of presence (Still looks like a Futura) and Lack of Grunt (not terminal), its absolutely impossible to justify its extra expense, The LTD has been on a long slide now since its pinnacle with the P6, the AU was perhaps it last hurrah.

Now personally i think/believe that the LTD should not be placed as a Caprice alternative, Holden made the move in 2002 to make the Caprice a sporty car and i dont think there is enough space for two sporty LWB saloons. The future for LTD in my opinion is ultimate luxury take on the Lexus GS300, Honda Legend, Audi A6, Volvo S80 brigade at a & 70k price, pack the darn thing with every piece of electronic luxury they can think off- The LTD is supposed to be the pinnacle of Australian luxury. You can see why people arent buying LTD's when you see that a $40,000 Honda Accord has more luxury- We need Xenon's, Optitronic Gauges, Massaging seats, Window Blinds, Insanely powerful sound/dvd system, bluetooth, radar cruise control.

The problems with the LTD are huge at the moment and there is no way its going to fixed in this model, but i remain still optimistic about Orion, or in the advent of the canning of the Ford LWB range, a return in the future of Lincoln.

**Polyal** · 22-01-2007, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fairlane

or in the advent of the canning of the Ford LWB range, a return in the future of Lincoln.

Or they could just forget about it all together.

I mean seriously, that segment is not worth the investment unless you have the exports aswell. Lincoln will never happen either.

ltd · 22-01-2007, 10:36 AM

Spot on Russellw, even the series such as the FE, NC etc owned it over the caprice. The P6 was an amazing bit of kit that still represents great value today - some examples are into the tens of thousands.
I personally think the NF-NL were fantastic cars too and the titanic tail with huge garnish helped seperate an otherwise indistinguishable model. The AU1 was on the right track but executed poorly in terms of links to the AU shape that was panned by the critics. The suspension for this segment was completely botched, as ford found out LTD drivers want luxury, not XR8 suspension.
The AU2 was still hurting from the AU1 experience of suspension knock and NVH issues but was a much better car in many ways; that being said the WH caprice looked a lot more modern and aesthetically pleasing at the time and hence took the lions share of sales.
The BA on the other hand is a brilliant car, it doesn't suffer from overly soft suspension but does ride extremely well. The main downside is it looks like a falcon, and inside has the elegance of an XT.
Ford need to re-hire that woman who designed the LTD interior for the DF/DL model, her sense of colour and materials coordination is better than the fool who did BA and had only just discovered polymer. In luxury cars, ford need to realise that "plastic aint fantastic".
The best advice I can give is that Ford need to catch up. Holden had LED brake lights 3 models ago, they have xenon now and LED indicators - it all looks modern and fresh.
I can show Ford what I have done to a BA LTD to make it look upmarket; even whilst it has a grey interior it still is streets ahead of the standard crap, and for less than $1000.00 too. Ahh well, maybe the LTD's will be collectables in the future on the basis of "this was the last kick in the once owned LWB segment by ford".

ltd · 22-01-2007, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fairlane

Well the LTD in its current state is a joke, it obviously suffers from the same afflictions as Fairlane- Lack of differentation (Looks like a Futura), Lack of equipment, Lack of presence (Still looks like a Futura) and Lack of Grunt (not terminal), its absolutely impossible to justify its extra expense, The LTD has been on a long slide now since its pinnacle with the P6, the AU was perhaps it last hurrah.

Now personally i think/believe that the LTD should not be placed as a Caprice alternative, Holden made the move in 2002 to make the Caprice a sporty car and i dont think there is enough space for two sporty LWB saloons. The future for LTD in my opinion is ultimate luxury take on the Lexus GS300, Honda Legend, Audi A6, Volvo S80 brigade at a & 70k price, pack the darn thing with every piece of electronic luxury they can think off- The LTD is supposed to be the pinnacle of Australian luxury. You can see why people arent buying LTD's when you see that a $40,000 Honda Accord has more luxury- We need Xenon's, Optitronic Gauges, Massaging seats, Window Blinds, Insanely powerful sound/dvd system, bluetooth, radar cruise control.

The problems with the LTD are huge at the moment and there is no way its going to fixed in this model, but i remain still optimistic about Orion, or in the advent of the canning of the Ford LWB range, a return in the future of Lincoln.

Direct, succinct, absolutely perfect.
Could not possibly agree more as I'm limited by the 100% rule.

chevypower · 22-01-2007, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

Or they could just forget about it all together.

I mean seriously, that segment is not worth the investment unless you have the exports aswell. Lincoln will never happen either.

I think Mercedes have it right... more body styles available, you cant just have a medium sedan and a large sedan these days, and expect the company to prosper. Ford have a couple of body styles with a couple of engine options
Mercedes have two large SUVs M and GL with about 4 or more engine options in each
4 two door cars CLK, CL, SL and SLK
2 large 4 door sedans E class and CLS
and 3 ranges which look original and not like anything other companies have A, B and R class

Mercedes have changed their line-up, not relied on what success they had in the 70s and 80s. They could have sat around and did nothing and whinged and said "nobodys buying S classes anymore"

Ford might be better off to globalize the brand, invest more money in to their products, and sell each vehicle produced from different plants around the world, export it to everywhere else and go for a consistancy in their lineup around the world, rather than a different set of product names and vehicles for each country. The Mercury brand should be gone, and the Lincoln and FPV brands should be global.
Fiesta, Focus, Mondeo, Falcon, Interceptor
Focus convertible, Cougar, Mustang, GT
Escape, Territory, Explorer, Expedition
Territory pickup, Ranger, F series
Transit, Econoline (ditch the Econovan)

Lincolns: MKX, MKZ, Navigator and Town Car (designed as world-class cars of course)

FPV: every shape should have an FPV model

engines should also be global and high tech, with a good choice of direct injection E85 compatible petrol and Common Rail diesel engines in each vehicle, with a diesel-electric hybrid option too

LeadFoot81 · 22-01-2007, 02:46 PM

Does anyone think a short wheelbase super-luxurious Fairlane with suicide (?) rear doors (the type that open the 'other' way round) and different front/rear end could work? Different styling could make the car appear wider (like Aurion next to a Camry)

steel_dot · 22-01-2007, 04:02 PM

I think it could work. It should be quite different in look and feel. Like you said, it would have to be super luxurious and really decked out. It might steal some sales off the fairmont ghia but should help over all sales numbers.

Dont know the negatives and postives of suicide doors and why/why not they arent used but isnt one of the positives the easy of entry into the rear??? This would make it good for limo, wedding etc applications.

With the growth of falcon and commodore over the years, are the current levels of cabin space similiar to fairlanes/ltd/statemans of 15/20 years ago?

sfr rob · 22-01-2007, 04:18 PM

wow... we seem to be going around in circles again and again about the LTD series.
The problem is... they are UGLY, TOO heavy, frugle on the features, under powered & way over priced!
The solution? ditch the LWB all together, and release High powered, feature packed SWB .... oh yeah.... FORCE 6 & FORCE 8 :P

Paxton · 22-01-2007, 04:20 PM

I was home from work early last week, and turned Foxtel onto Kingswood Country. For the younger players, Kingswood Country was a late 70's, early 80's Australian comedy about a racist bigot, who hated everything except for his Kingswood, but that is beside the point. The episode surrounded Bulpit's misconception that he was to get a promotion. The line that stuck in my mind was this:

"And I'm going to sell the Kingswood and get a Fairlane".

How many people can say today, that with the amount of luxury cars in Australia that, if you had been made a Manager in your workplace that you would get a Fairlane over a 5 Series, an E Class or a 300c? Not many (if any). Hell, my next car will be lucky to wear a Ford badge, let alone a Falcon.

What Ford need to do is either "Win it or Bin it". The Fairlane needs to have one last hurrah. Bring the Galaxie 540 out, fill it with every luxury from the Ford world, make a limited run, and watch as the Australian public get wind of an Australian made car that has kit in it to worry the Euro's. The Quality won't be there, however what do you expect from an Australian built car, a Subaru?

M 2.2¢

Wayne · 22-01-2007, 04:28 PM

I drive an LTD, A BA LTD and when people ask what sort of car I drive, I say quite proudly, A Falcon. It's just not worth the effort to explain the whole LTD, top of the range thing. I mean, I don't believe it so how can I convince others? As already pointed out in previous threads, from those with a stronger and more wise interest and knowledge in cars, This car cannot be held up as the flagship of the fleet. Regardless of how you come about getting into an LTD (politicians exluded) the choice of this car should represent a reward. A reward in business, a reward in financial control, a reward at the race track or whatever. But the current range of Luxo Barge LTDs really are a ripoff and that is shame on Ford. The company could not even design a way of letting you open the boot without trying to jam your fingers between boot and bumper or placing two hands fairly on the back of the lid and pushing in and up at the same time. A Beautifully crafted ford badge with a strong lower lip would have done as a handle but no, this is the flagship and you get nothing. A Top range car with blanking panels, what's that about? I know this was at the time of the turning driving lights into turning lamps and then turning the turning lamps into fog lamps and then turning them into rubbery blanking panels but Geesus, no ancillary lights on the flagship? In a well organised car company there should always be room for the upmarket models, not just because there is a market for them, but when structured correctly there can be a great deal of money made out of a $70,000 car that is based on a $35,000 car with about 10 grands worth of extras thrown in. I love the previous suggestions of exclusive fittings and paint schemes, LTD only drivelines and other bits and pieces to make others feel envious, not sorry for the humbled LTD driver. So why do I drive the LTD? The first owner paid $68,000 according to the receipts in 2003. When I bought it last year, I paid 22,500 with two brand new tyres on the front. Feature for feature, I couldn't find a cheaper Ford than the Flagship at the time. I have since added 6,000 k's riding on 18'' wheels and lowered slightly and it is good, not 72,000 worth, but "good".
PS. i am about to go over to workshop>contemporary>etc, with the question, where is the hard black plastic tube that rides up on top of the auto transmision supposed to go to? Is it just some sort of breathing tube? It comes up on top of the tranny to a bracket at the top of the bell housing, does a 180 degree turn and then just sits there. Is that all it does?

OK Ok I'm going to the workshop Wayne

Franky · 22-01-2007, 09:06 PM

Simple when I see a Fairlane the first thing that pops into my head is Falcon. It's almost as if Ford have said ok we'll make the Falcon longer and charge a fortune for it, suprisingly it doesn't sell too well.

It's not to say it's a bad car it's probably great but what I like about the Stateman and Caprice is that they have taken a different direction and the difference between them and the Commodore is obvious. I completely agree with 'Fairlane' the market is too small for LWB cars and Luxo euros that sell for much less and are loaded with goodies are much more appealing. Perhaps FPV could take over and do what Toyota do with Lexus?

XR8-260 · 22-01-2007, 09:34 PM

I'm not a fan of the LTD look and i'm sure that i am not alone on this. The engine is also down on power compared with the gen 4 - why not put the BOSS 260 in. Like everyone points out it is also more expensive.

Iphido · 23-01-2007, 12:25 AM

Significant changes like a glass roof. Opening up the cabin to more light.

LTD/Fairlane need to be big cars. With proper door openings and proper technology. The problem is this interfers theoretically with Jaguar. Fairlane and LTD must die.

Dave_au · 23-01-2007, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iphido

The problem is this interfers theoretically with Jaguar. Fairlane and LTD must die.

I know what your saying but the type of consumer who buys a Jag wouldn't be in the market for a Fairlane in the first place.

One Drone · 23-01-2007, 02:59 AM

The Caprice looks so much better than the Fairlane and has looked better for the past few years.. Just on looks alone there won't be a lane for much longer.