Bloody Snake (Dugite) in the Roof

[aussiblue]

I just saw a small snake climbing the brick wall outside my kitchen and then enter my roof space via the small gap around where a sewer air vent pipe passes through the soffit. Probably 1/2 meter long and 1.5 cm thick. Dark olive green with a black head so me thinks either a juvenile Dugite (most likely as they are very common here) or less likely juvenile Gwarder/Western Brown. Much too quick for me to get my snake hook and bag or grabbers. the gap around the pipe seemed much less than the thickness of the snake but it squeezed trough.

I am comfortable in safely catching snakes on the ground and in their usual haunts around the place but how the hell do I find it in my roof space or lure it out? It could be anywhere under or between the old yellow insulation bats. And I suspect all a snake-catcher will find for me is broken roof tiles (no room to crawl in with the evap air ducts).

The last snake I had climbing the wall was a whip snake and I would prefer if it was another one. So now we are all living in fear that it will climb out of one of evap air con vent security outlet returns and fall into our beds while we sleep. We had a couple in the house years ago. One came in with the dry washing in the washing basket the other other who knows perhaps it also came in via the soffit gap.

I guess on the positive side I won't need to worry about the usual late autumn migration of rats and mice into my attic space.

[stock1991]

I remember Kardinya primary school after the Christmas holidays had like 27 dugites caught on the first day back to school. This was early 80's

[commodorenutt]

We had one about that size at work last week - but it was a red-bellied black. He was hiding in the rodent bait container. Most likely because it was black, and nice & warm in the sun, as he was to small to be waiting for a rat or mouse.

[roddy1960]

On the second week of the school year we've had a lowland copper head in the school sports oval that caused a bit of concern , then last Sunday week I saw one of the biggest Tiger snakes I've seen for a while on a track while out with my two dogs . Had to be five to five and a half foot and black as buggery and bulging with gut full of recent tucker . When we spotted the snake we were maybe four metres away. Very quick a bit further away

My Border Collie just comes to a halt and looks a bit like a pointer when she spots a snake before me , also does it with echidna's which is funny because she then stands back and barks at it . Not a Joe Blake though. My young kelpie is oblivious to them and on two occasions in her first four years she's just walked over the top of them as if they weren't there. Probably good according to the Reptile Rescue crowd when I asked them about that because a snake not threatened is not likely to strike too quick. Still avoid them regardless.

We're always on the lookout for them in our area , mostly Copperheads until mid to late April . Coppery's are the most numerous of our three snake species in Tassie , then there's the Tiger of course and the white lipped or as we call it the Whip Snake. No Red Bellies , Eastern Brown's etc that account for the worst outcomes in other States ..No Inland Taipans of course , thank God. Anybody on AFF ever come across one of them in your travels ?

[Junkyard-Dog]

[GO FURTHER]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

So now we are all living in fear that it will climb out of one of evap air con vent security outlet returns and fall into our beds while we sleep.

Gaffer tape chicken wire squares to the vents above your beds... That will stop mummy snake.
But when mum has her babies they could still fall through.

[My32Doors]

Look on the positive side. You won't have any possums up there.

[aussiblue]

Look on the positive side. You won't have any possums up there.

Yes and it might also put off the NBN cable laying man so I can keep my fast existing cable service and landline longer.

[Mercury Bullet]

Black head? Most likely a western brown. They are closely related to dugites though.
Bloody dangerous buggers, I know of 3 people dying from them the last couple of years. Most recent a couple of months ago at meekatharra.

Last week my cat decided to grab one and bring it inside to show me.
Juveniles are the worst, just as lethal but bloody quick to strike.

I've got a photo of it on my phone and will post the picture later when I have time so you can compare.

Had an interesting discussion over dinner one night. My nieces husband is an intensive care specialist and he was telling me the preferred treatment these days is to use anti-venene as a last resort. The patient has the last say but they now prefer to keep you in intensive care and closely monitored and let your body cope with the poison. Apparently most times you will get over it yourself without the need for anti-venom. It depends on the severity of the bite.

I don't know if I'd be game to go that route.

[whitelion65]

Would a dugite be able to climb the brick wall?
Hard to picture how far it is from your description. Hopefully just a tree snake or similar!

[aussiblue]

Would a dugite be able to climb the brick wall?

Yes; they can it seems. It's was also not similar in appearance to other juvenile dugites I have caught and confirmed the ID of before relocating back to the bushland that used to be across the road from me.

[NTF6]

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

Had an interesting discussion over dinner one night. My nieces husband is an intensive care specialist and he was telling me the preferred treatment these days is to use anti-venene as a last resort. The patient has the last say but they now prefer to keep you in intensive care and closely monitored and let your body cope with the poison. Apparently most times you will get over it yourself without the need for anti-venom. It depends on the severity of the bite.

That would depend on whether or not a compression bandage has been applied and applied correctly. Snake venom enters the clear lymphatic fluid first and enters the bloodstream once it is transferred over in a lymph node. A compression bandage has to be applied over the entire length of the limb up to and as close as possible to the lymph node. If no compression bandage has been applied then you stand no chance without antivenin. If a compression bandage has been applied correctly the it's possible to prevent it from entering the blood stream and the venom can dissipate over time.

[aussiblue]

Also similar to this one that also appears to be climbing abrick wall https://minesite.deviantart.com/art/...XXIV-197102930

[aussiblue]

The dugite is also the most common snake found in the Perth metro area. There are no tree snakes in Perth metro and the only other possibility is a western brown/gwardar (it didn't have the larger eyes of the reticulated whip snake that we occasionally see) which is much less common in Perth metro but nonetheless the gwardar been responsible for most recent death from snake bite (see http://members.iinet.net.au/~bush/wadeaths.html) .

[roddy1960]

Here's one of our local Tasmanian Tiger snakes doing a high wire act (literally) a couple of weeks ago in the south of the state not too far from Hobart .

Just checking the strainers I reckon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C-au7GRmiM


Cheers Rod..

[aussiblue]

I am sort of over it; I figure it's probably been in the roof for a while without bothering me and likely just came down to get some water from nearby where the evap air water drain spills onto the pavement. Searched as best I could but there are too many hidden place I can't see into and or places I can't reach where it could be eg. it could slide down from antic space past the gaps on the brickwork around the wall oven and then hide under the oven or follow the cavity from there that takes the gas pipe around the back of the built in cupboard to the cooktop or it could simply hide under the yellow bats or be in the cavity between the inner and outer brick walls (WA so a double bricks house). Unless I can get hold of a mongoose it there for the duration. But I have moved my snake catching gear from the shed into the house for the moment.

[BPXR6T]

It won't stay there for long. Too hot and it would cook. My roof cavity gets to about 1 billion degrees celsius.

[aussiblue]

It won't stay there for long. Too hot and it would cook. My roof cavity gets to about 1 billion degrees celsius.

That's no comfort as my ducted evap is set up to exit through ceiling vents rather than windows so it not so bad heat wise and of course these ceiling vents also give the snake access to the house should it be so inclined.

[BPXR6T]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

That's no comfort as my ducted evap is set up to exit through ceiling vents rather than windows so it not so bad heat wise and of course these ceiling vents also give the snake access to the house should it be so inclined.

This is totally non-PC and not snake friendly. But a sure fire way to catch a snake is bird netting. I caught an eastern brown this way recently in my bedroom closet. The cats take care of most the browns here. I still get them around the house though.

[aussiblue]

We had another Dugite in our house last night! I was just locking up for the night and right at my feet it crawled inside under sliding screen patio door and into our dining room and then hid behind my carton of Roger's Beer (at least it has good taste). I caught it with my snake hook and bag and now it is alive and wiggling in the large sealed but ventilated recycled 190 litre olive drum I bought for the purpose awaiting collection by a snake re-locator (per picture) It was a skinny juvenile just over a meter long. It is too small to be the one I saw entering our roof space in Autumn (we've been calling "Dudley the Dugite" ). I have just torn down and replaced my family room ceiling and replaced my evap air con dropper and ducts and saw no sign of Dudley.

I actually don't mind snakes but I really wish they would stay outside of my house and would not decide to come inside when I am barefoot and half naked in my PJs; not the best snake catching attire. It's been suggested I missed a better photo opportunity especially after I decided to put my rubber boots on to at least provide some foot protection and I also had to keep one hand on my PJ trousers to keep them from falling down while wrangling the snake. But I have a rule of no distracting cameras until the snake is safely caught.

[stock1991]

Good job and those juveniles are just as venomous as adults.

[roddy1960]

Last Sunday arvo I took the muttleys , Missy the 8 year old purebred Border Collie and Daisy my manic and I do mean manic 5 year old Blue Kelpie up on the mountain under South Sister . we were on our way back , maybe a kilometre from the car on a narrow walking track . Missy in front , Daisy sniffing something a few metres behind . We were just about to turn back onto the road after crossing a drainage ditch and Missy just came to a halt and looked right where we were about to go .

WARNING WILL ROBINSON..basically . When she does that I know what it means . Sure enough sitting in the ditch was a 5 ft plus jet black tiger snake . He was a nice specimen . I scruffed Daisy because she is oblivious to snakes. , She's even walked over the top of them a couple of times and flicked a few stones at the snake and got a coughy bark back from it . Then it slid down the drain and disappeared .

In the past week we've had a lowland copperhead in the school shearing shed vicinity , not caught and a workmate had one by his dam where his son was checking on the cattle . They're certainly out and about at the minute .

How venomous are dugites by the way ? We don't have them in Tassie , only Tiger , Lowland Copperhead (the most common to come across) and the white lipped whip snake .

[aussiblue]

How venomous are dugites by the way ?

The are related to the eastern brown (so also called the western brown snake) and are considered to have one of the most lethal venoms in the world: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dugite

The venom of P. affinis is potentially one of the most lethal in the world, causing coagulopathic and procoagulant effects.[1] Dugites generally avoid biting humans, but risks of encounters rise when they are most active during the mating season through October and November.[2]

The last death attributed to a dugite was in Fremantle (South Beach) on 15 August 2015. A woman was bitten on her heel mid-afternoon while walking alone. She walked home and later collapsed whilst her husband was taking her to her car in order to transport her to the hospital. The ambulance was called, arriving five minutes later, but medics were unable to revive her.[2]

In January 2011, a seven-year-old Perth boy was bitten and temporarily paralyzed after a dugite entered his bedroom and wrapped itself around his arm while he slept. After receiving immediate medical attention, he made a full recovery.

[aussiblue]

The WA Department of Biodivesity, Conservation and Attractions gave me permission to relocate it myself in the nearest bushland noting that the research indicates that relocated snaked do not have a good survival rate especially when moved away from there existing 50m range. See http://www.publish.csiro.au/wr/WR04020 and http://www.publish.csiro.au/wr/WR17166 So it has been moved away but perhaps may return in due course.

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

The are related to the eastern brown (so also called the western brown snake) and are considered to have one of the most lethal venoms in the world: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dugite

My cat decided it wanted a fight with a baby western brown.
The black head is very typical of these. I have never seen a brown one, usually a combination of white/orange and black bands in these parts.

Not 100% certain but I don't think western Brown's are related to eastern Brown's.

[aussiblue]

Not 100% certain but I don't think western Brown's are related to eastern Brown's.

They are and were once considered the same species. They are all Pseudonaja

See http://www.toxinology.com/about/brow...snakebite.html and https://biomedicalsciences.unimelb.e...on-brown-snake

Taxonomy of brown snakes

Species listing for brown snakes:

Eastern brown snake, common brown snake, Pseudonaja textilis

Western brown snake, gwardar, Pseudonaja nuchalis

Dugite, Pseudonaja affinis

Peninsular brown snake, Pseudonaja inframacula

Ingram's brown snake, Pseudonaja ingrami

Spotted brown snake, Pseudonaja guttata

Ringed brown snake, Pseudonaja modesta

The also vary in colour a lot. The one in my roof is a much darker olive green.

[roKWiz]

Nice one mercury,
One thing I hate about summer is building drystone walls and the snakes who want to shelter under the stone piles I have stacked.
Cleared a pile of tree branches at my place the other day and was about to pick up the last bundle of wood when a 16in baby eastern brown slithered out.

Couldn't be any worst than bl**dy Seaforth in Sydney which is full of Funnel Web spiders.

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

They are and were once considered the same species. They are all Pseudonaja

See http://www.toxinology.com/about/brow...snakebite.html and https://biomedicalsciences.unimelb.e...on-brown-snake

Taxonomy of brown snakes

Species listing for brown snakes:

Eastern brown snake, common brown snake, Pseudonaja textilis

Western brown snake, gwardar, Pseudonaja nuchalis

Dugite, Pseudonaja affinis

Peninsular brown snake, Pseudonaja inframacula

Ingram's brown snake, Pseudonaja ingrami

Spotted brown snake, Pseudonaja guttata

Ringed brown snake, Pseudonaja modesta

The also vary in colour a lot. The one in my roof is a much darker olive green.

Yeah I'm aware they are all classed in the same scientific family.

The reason for my statement was my cat was bitten about a year ago. The vet who is my best mate asked if I saw what got him. Nope.
So he told me that if we sit here and watch him, he could tell what bit him. I asked how and he went on a spiel about genetics and how the animals react differently.

Anyhow what I remember was that they were genetically quite different.
Next time I see him I'll ask him again and update here.

I remember the anti-venene was for 3 snakes, dugites, western brown and the other I don't remember. It was a western brown that got him. Cat survived...just!

[roddy1960]

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

Yeah I'm aware they are all classed in the same scientific family.

The reason for my statement was my cat was bitten about a year ago. The vet who is my best mate asked if I saw what got him. Nope.
So he told me that if we sit here and watch him, he could tell what bit him. I asked how and he went on a spiel about genetics and how the animals react differently.

Anyhow what I remember was that they were genetically quite different.
Next time I see him I'll ask him again and update here.

I remember the anti-venene was for 3 snakes, dugites, western brown and the other I don't remember. It was a western brown that got him. Cat survived...just!

Sorry to read your moggy got bit ..Glad he survived though but cats are buggers for this .

I lost my old tom cat in the early noughties when a whip snake got him . He survived the night but we lost him next day at the vet clinic . He couldn't resist trying to fish them out of the logs and stuff . Brought a couple of dead ones home first though .Clyde was only five too.. Interesting thing about the fourth most venomous snake and like the big one I came across a week ago ..the Tiger snake. They often only dry warning bite the first strike and why the medic's or vets in pet situations more often than not don't administer anti venom immediately . It's a watch and act thing really and correct immobilisation and pressure bandaging goes a long way to a good outcome .

Regardless of the species that generally applies nowadays of course but the tiger snake is more known for warning bites than others so I was told by a Reptile Rescue fellow a few years ago at a PL day I attended on First Aid..

[NTF6]

Originally Posted by GO FURTHER

Gaffer tape chicken wire squares to the vents above your beds... That will stop mummy snake.
But when mum has her babies they could still fall through.

Don't know how it can fall through the vents when the vents are connected to the ducting, so the snake would need to leave the roof space and make it's way into the evap unit that is outside and then work it's way through inside the ducting in order to come through a vent, it's a long shot!