"It's the Law"

[Crazy Dazz]

I swear I am going to throttle the next grease-monkey that sprouts this line.

Isn't it amazing how these drongos, who probably broke a dozen laws just driving to work, suddenly become legal experts when it means charging the customer more. Yet in all their legals studies, they never make it as far as the Fair Trading legislation.

It's always "oh, you have to replace that 'cos its the law'," or "you can't do that it's illegal." But in most cases the only applicable law is compliance with the age-appropriate ADRs, and the "roadworthiness" of the car, and whether not replacing a part compromises that.

Had some ****wit try to tell me that my BATTERY was illegal.

The other terrible culprits are the old farts at DoT, who just make **** up as they go along.

In the past some of the things deemed unlawful by various legal masterminds have included:
An LPG mixer
LPG fill point
Having a mix of alloy & steel wheels
A torn seat
Noisy A/C fan
Missing left hand mirror on a car not required to have one.
Disconnected "high level" brake lights on a car not required to have one.
Dirty brake fluid
And apparently every disc on every wheel of every car I have ever owned.

[marty351]

To add some more....,

Indicator flash speed,
Steering wheel covering,
Horn operating switch,
Radio antenna location,
Tow ball ,(when not in use)

There are more, but where do you stop?

[zipping]

An illegal battery that's a new 1 quick get these dudes to tell Jay Weatherdill and Maocolm before they spend squillions on Musks batteries.

To quote Hetfield

"Can not stop the Battery"

[Itsme]

You will never beat a **** head, they always bring you down to their level of thinking.....Lol

[roKWiz]

Mad isn't it. You should try owning a truck.

[Danny]

since when is ****wit allowed to be said?

**** johnson however is no go cause this is a family forum.

[Sabantien]

Had someone telling me the brand new tyres on my car were wrong. Fortunately his boss was there and told him to pull his head in.

Also had electricians tell us to change the kitchen light fitting would mean rewiring everything from the basement up, and it would cost thousands.
Next electrician just came in and did it.

[.:4:.]

I got pulled over and defected years back for a number of things. One being shiny front tyres. They were brand new with the hairy rubber things still in most places. The other defects were legit. I was actually pulled up for intentional loss of traction, so that being dropped and a defect sticker was a much better outcome.

[Feathers]

Our work vehicles are required to be inspected by NSW RMS every 6 months. We always go to the same location, so most of the guys know us, and they know our vehicles.

They'll give us a heads up if something looks to be on it's way out, that 'while it will pass this time, it most likely won't next time, so take care of it between now and then', kind of thing. They don't look the other way if something isn't right, but they're not nasty about it (they can be for those that fail the "attitude test").

But they do often get new inspectors training.
One such person was inspecting an older vehicle of ours which is quite uncommon these days, and with which he wasn't familiar. He decided that the brake linings were worn too thin, and it would be a defect.
We didn't argue, just took it back to the workshop, swapped them out and got the defect cleared.

When the next vehicle went in a week or so later, the boss took in a brand new set of linings for the older vehicle, as well as the ones that came out of it, and went to have a chat to the inspector.
On showing him the two sets, the guy admitted that he was wrong, the linings had not been worn, but he was unfamiliar with the vehicle, and went on what he knew of other vehicles.
Obviously he couldn't change the report, and it didn't matter anyway, but he appreciated the heads up, and that we didn't get angry about it.

Just recently we got pinged on indicator flash speed (it's been like that for at least 10 years, through 20 inspections, and no one said anything about it until now?).

Another vehicle was failed due to the driver's seat not having a seat belt. (The vehicle has never had one, it wasn't fitted with one from factory, and again, has been through 7-8 years of inspections prior to this, where it wasn't mentioned).

We found one from a spare seat and fitted it, but the seat isn't designed or engineered to have one, the mounting points would probably fail anyway, so there is no way it meets the ADR they think they're enforcing, but they don't care. Seat belt sighted - tick.

[ronwest]

Originally Posted by Feathers

But they do often get new inspectors training.
One such person was inspecting an older vehicle of ours which is quite uncommon these days, and with which he wasn't familiar. He decided that the brake linings were worn too thin, and it would be a defect.
We didn't argue, just took it back to the workshop, swapped them out and got the defect cleared.

When the next vehicle went in a week or so later, the boss took in a brand new set of linings for the older vehicle, as well as the ones that came out of it, and went to have a chat to the inspector.
On showing him the two sets, the guy admitted that he was wrong, the linings had not been worn, but he was unfamiliar with the vehicle, and went on what he knew of other vehicles.
Obviously he couldn't change the report, and it didn't matter anyway, but he appreciated the heads up, and that we didn't get angry about it.

My son-in-law's company has 50 something Hilux, Landcruisers, Isuzus, etc that go on minesites.
In the small country town in which they are based the inspector of vehicles (or whatever he's called) is king.
Never passes a vehicle first up and depending on how his day is going will make life more or less difficult.

When my s-i-l took over the company from his dad he made it a point to prove the inspector wrong (hoping to cut some of the crap they had to go through).

So armed with specifications and written documentation from the vehicle manufacturer he showed the inspector that what he (the inspector) wanted done, or changed, or whatever, was incorrect.

Bad move. They are still paying the price for getting him offside.

I've suggested hiring a couple of thugs to visit him but s-i-l is a bit soft...

[ea90gl]

Much of the "Law" is a complete joke, with most rules put in place only to benefit those whose best interests are sucking the money out us common folk...

Fight it as much as you can within reason and if you feel that you have any solid case and can find them loopholes then so be it

[paulie]

I can see both sides of the story in some cases.

If you signed off on a vehicle saying its safe and legit then it drives off and has a major accident and some people are seriously injured or killed the vehicle is inspected by major crash etc.

If a fault is found and the inspector didnt mark it down/report it then the inspector then becomes viable as they were neglect in their work. And could find themselves in jail.

So i can see why some may be picky.
Doesn't give them an excuse to be a c#nt or power crazy either.

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by marty351

Indicator flash speed,

to be fair, that one IS in the ADR.

i'm pretty sure they don't care where a radio antenna is mounted unless it's a pedestrian hazzard....

[.:4:.]

Originally Posted by paulie

I can see both sides of the story in some cases.

If you signed off on a vehicle saying its safe and legit then it drives off and has a major accident and some people are seriously injured or killed the vehicle is inspected by major crash etc.

If a fault is found and the inspector didnt mark it down/report it then the inspector then becomes viable as they were neglect in their work. And could find themselves in jail.

So i can see why some may be picky.
Doesn't give them an excuse to be a c#nt or power crazy either.

Negligence it's a tricky issue. Yes there is absolute stupidity or laziness, but then there is the unknown factor. For arguments sake, say you put el cheapo ebay ball joints on a b series falcon, go for a pink or blue slip and get a bill of health. Everything appeared ok. The engineer isn't going to pull the car apart and send every part to be strength tested. 2 weeks later one fails and you kill a pedestrian? Not the engineers fault in my book.

[paulie]

True.
But what i was saying is.
If an inspector sees an issue and doesn't note ot downor fail it for the issue and an accident occurs then there will be trouble.

Had many a times id done work on a car and sent it out only to find the owner had swapped stuff out after.
Crap thing is id still be called in because of it and have to prove my inocense

[.:4:.]

Originally Posted by paulie

True.
But what i was saying is.
If an inspector sees an issue and doesn't note ot downor fail it for the issue and an accident occurs then there will be trouble.

Had many a times id done work on a car and sent it out only to find the owner had swapped stuff out after.
Crap thing is id still be called in because of it and have to prove my inocense

I completely understand it. I often do electrical safety audits and have be all over everything. The worst is putting an appliance test tag on a sandwich press. What's not to say the client sandwiches the cord in the press a day later and either shock or kill themself? It was fine at the time of inspection but I don't want to be liable.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by aussie muscle

to be fair, that one IS in the ADR.

From ADR 13/00
"when operating, display regular flashes of light at a rate of not less than 60, and not more than 120, flashes per minute, "

I was knocked back on the flasher timing problem, LED tail lights on one of my older trucks but informed them it only applied to vehicles built after 1991.

[The Yeti]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

I swear I am going to throttle the next grease-monkey that sprouts this line.

Isn't it amazing how these drongos, who probably broke a dozen laws just driving to work, suddenly become legal experts when it means charging the customer more. Yet in all their legals studies, they never make it as far as the Fair Trading legislation.

It's always "oh, you have to replace that 'cos its the law'," or "you can't do that it's illegal." But in most cases the only applicable law is compliance with the age-appropriate ADRs, and the "roadworthiness" of the car, and whether not replacing a part compromises that.

Had some ****wit try to tell me that my BATTERY was illegal.

The other terrible culprits are the old farts at DoT, who just make **** up as they go along.

In the past some of the things deemed unlawful by various legal masterminds have included:
An LPG mixer
LPG fill point
Having a mix of alloy & steel wheels
A torn seat
Noisy A/C fan
Missing left hand mirror on a car not required to have one.
Disconnected "high level" brake lights on a car not required to have one.
Dirty brake fluid
And apparently every disc on every wheel of every car I have ever owned.

Perhaps your battery was illegal / dangerous what other information did the inspector give? Was it not secured properly, Was it at risk of shorting on the panel work etc

As for the mix of wheels were they also a mix of off sets?

Your mixer and fill point could also have issues

If your toorn seat has lost its support as a result yep it's a defect
And the him level stop light, well I,haven't been a rego inspector for a number of years but the rule then was if a safety item is fitted (even aftermarket) it has to work

If you want to drive a bucket of shut that's up to you but I can bet the guy inspecting the car doesn't want to loose his lively hood so you can

I used to get mates asking me to do phone worthys my answer was always no as if I lost my ticket as a result it cost my shop a metric **** ton of money

Sorry but this upeducated grease monkey probably wouldn't pass your bucket of **** either

It's the law

[marty351]

.....

[383hq]

At what point will Australians bandy together to create the clear message that the law is wrong, has overstepped the mark for what is reasonable, practicable, and productive ?

A) Never, unlike USA, we're an apathetic bunch.

we let the politicians create laws for the minority that then become majority policed.
And now we're allowing CEO's talking about social problems, they seem to have forgotten they are representing the organisation (all it's employees). So it will only get worse.

Examples- legislation to make you a Criminal for offending someone ? sure, only in Australia. Nothing actually happens if you're offended. you still wake up in the morning.

Speed limits for this vast country ? 100 or 110. Sure. France is 130, but we're trusted only at 100 or 110.

Torn seat unroadworthy ?-

Just because it could cause an incident, doesn't mean it is likely to cause an accident. Something we seem to have mis understood (probability is very low?)
etc etc.

Truth is, none of us can be bothered even writing to our politicians. If enough of us did, we could influence some change.

But we won't.

The only other avenue is the department of fair trading. Good luck with that, Bureaucrats feeding bureaucrats.
Australia's GovCo creating work through government bureaucrats

Arrest me, I've probably offended someone....
<rant over, thanks for the lead in !>

[last fairlane]

Two events 45 years apart
in 1968 I had a Mk2 Zephyr and it had a red light in the back window with the letters S.T,O,P anyway I was pulled up and told to remove it I asked why and was told by constable plod
it was illegal to have an odd number of lights "front or back"
god knows how Studebakers or Rovers got on let alone FJ Holdens

anyway fast forward to 2003 I had an ex Silver service taxi
an NC Fairlane 5 litre on LPG I went to register it at Woodridge Transport here in Brisbane and they came to inspect it and I was told I cant register it as it had an illegal Turbo fitted I told this 'Tard that it was a gas mixer and he said OK
just shows how smart they are and who is just a smart ***

[meggsy]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

From ADR 13/00
"when operating, display regular flashes of light at a rate of not less than 60, and not more than 120, flashes per minute, "

I was knocked back on the flasher timing problem, LED tail lights on one of my older trucks but informed them it only applied to vehicles built after 1991.

many years ago I got snapped turning right against a red light at 2.00AM in Melbourne -- fair enough but then to get lumbered with failing to indicate since the blinker did not show up in a sequence of 4 pictures was over the top !!!!

[Feathers]

Originally Posted by meggsy

many years ago I got snapped turning right against a red light at 2.00AM in Melbourne -- fair enough but then to get lumbered with failing to indicate since the blinker did not show up in a sequence of 4 pictures was over the top !!!!

One of our drivers got done by a red light camera last month. (Possibly again last week at the same spot, as he said the camera was flashing like crazy, but multiple vehicles in the intersection...)
He drives the same route at 6am every morning, and at this set of lights needs to turn left.
Being over 7.5m long, he can legally turn using 2 lanes. It's the only way to do it here, as the road isn't wide, and there are posts on the corner.

Anyway, he and another vehicle had a green arrow, despite the red light for through traffic, so he proceeded, but the blinker doesn't show up in the photos, and his wheels weren't turned yet, as he was not far enough into the corner. So the camera assumes he was going straight through the red light. $433 and 3 points please.

Obviously they haven't taken heavy vehicles into account here. They can't get around in one lane, but turning from the next lane over, legally, trips the red light camera.

We've sent a letter explaining the situation, and quoting the relevant section of the Traffic Act, so now we're waiting for a reply. The boss would love to take it to court and get to argue with them.

The only other option is to sit and wait at the green arrow, for the other light to go green as well, and hold up all the traffic behind him.

[.:4:.]

Originally Posted by Feathers

One of our drivers got done by a red light camera last month. (Possibly again last week at the same spot, as he said the camera was flashing like crazy, but multiple vehicles in the intersection...)
He drives the same route at 6am every morning, and at this set of lights needs to turn left.
Being over 7.5m long, he can legally turn using 2 lanes. It's the only way to do it here, as the road isn't wide, and there are posts on the corner.

Anyway, he and another vehicle had a green arrow, despite the red light for through traffic, so he proceeded, but the blinker doesn't show up in the photos, and his wheels weren't turned yet, as he was not far enough into the corner. So the camera assumes he was going straight through the red light. $433 and 3 points please.

Obviously they haven't taken heavy vehicles into account here. They can't get around in one lane, but turning from the next lane over, legally, trips the red light camera.

We've sent a letter explaining the situation, and quoting the relevant section of the Traffic Act, so now we're waiting for a reply. The boss would love to take it to court and get to argue with them.

The only other option is to sit and wait at the green arrow, for the other light to go green as well, and hold up all the traffic behind him.

My manager had the task of picking my ex van up from the mechanics and not being all up on the lack of brakes running heavy, locked it up, boned it sideways into the intersection on the red, and had to wear the fine. It was the intersection of Collins st and oriordan in Alexandria. Safety cams don't take circumstance into account.

[Feathers]

This camera is at the corner of Elizabeth and McEvoy St. He turns from McEvoy into Elizabeth. https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-33....8i6656!6m1!1e1

Boss is hoping that there is another fine in the mail, because as I said he's looking forward to fighting it in court.
The cams don't take circumstances into account, but magistrates do.

If there is no other way for a vehicle 12.5m in length to make the turn, than by using the second lane (which is legal) and tripping the sensors, then their set up of the camera is flawed.

"At intersections you may have to swing wide to make a left turn. At marked intersections:

Position your vehicle so that any vehicles behind cannot pass on your left
Position yourself to get the best view possible of the road you are turning into.
Bus and truck drivers need to start a left turn further into the intersection than a car so that the back wheels do not run over the kerb."

Pretty certain a magistrate would dismiss the fines, but I can see a new "No left turn for vehicles over 5m" sign going up there not long after.

[TheInterceptor]

Originally Posted by 383hq

At what point will Australians bandy together to create the clear message that the law is wrong, has overstepped the mark for what is reasonable, practicable, and productive ?

A) Never, unlike USA, we're an apathetic bunch.

we let the politicians create laws for the minority that then become majority policed.
And now we're allowing CEO's talking about social problems, they seem to have forgotten they are representing the organisation (all it's employees). So it will only get worse.

Examples- legislation to make you a Criminal for offending someone ? sure, only in Australia. Nothing actually happens if you're offended. you still wake up in the morning.

Speed limits for this vast country ? 100 or 110. Sure. France is 130, but we're trusted only at 100 or 110.

Torn seat unroadworthy ?-

Just because it could cause an incident, doesn't mean it is likely to cause an accident. Something we seem to have mis understood (probability is very low?)
etc etc.

Truth is, none of us can be bothered even writing to our politicians. If enough of us did, we could influence some change.

But we won't.

The only other avenue is the department of fair trading. Good luck with that, Bureaucrats feeding bureaucrats.
Australia's GovCo creating work through government bureaucrats

Arrest me, I've probably offended someone....
<rant over, thanks for the lead in !>

You have just worked out why we as a country are screwed.
Problem with standing up to things is that anti speed and anti hoon mantras are that far drilled into the public, as an individual i would be frowned apon (and alienated etc) for trying to change things that "will be dangerous and cause death". It doesnt stop at road related issues either.

You cant win. We cant win. So i just go to work every day like every other bloke and make sure there is beer in the fridge for when im back and dont watch the news to see what more of my rights are being taken away....

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by The Yeti

Perhaps your battery was illegal / dangerous what other information did the inspector give? Was it not secured properly, Was it at risk of shorting on the panel work etc

As for the mix of wheels were they also a mix of off sets?

Your mixer and fill point could also have issues

If your toorn seat has lost its support as a result yep it's a defect
And the him level stop light, well I,haven't been a rego inspector for a number of years but the rule then was if a safety item is fitted (even aftermarket) it has to work

If you want to drive a bucket of shut that's up to you but I can bet the guy inspecting the car doesn't want to loose his lively hood so you can

I used to get mates asking me to do phone worthys my answer was always no as if I lost my ticket as a result it cost my shop a metric **** ton of money

Sorry but this upeducated grease monkey probably wouldn't pass your bucket of **** either

It's the law

Sorry for the threadmine, but came across this when looking for something else.
In WA we don't have annual inspections, so for the most part the issue is not one of passing muster. It's booking your car in for a service or particular job, and having some drongo try to sell me a bunch of crap. It ****es me off even more, knowing how often my daughters get targeted.

But yes, I've also encountered some utter twats when it comes to licensing. And sadly your attitude is typical of the worst offenders.
Thing is, the lists of;
"Repairs needed to restore the car to showroom condition";
"Repairs actually needed to make the car roadworthy and comply with ADRs"; and
"Crap you want to sell me";
are actually different things

The funniest one was having oldmate tell me that my indicator lenses had faded (on an AU.) Can you imagine if some poor fool had actually listened to him and forked out for new assemblies! (Instead of $2 for new globes)

[meggsy]

Its been an interesting time re-reading this post it is also interesting to note that an explanatory statement accompanies most "Law" in fact regulations (a worthwhile read is the Wikpedia definition of Law.....) intended to explain the reason behind the regulation etc that is enforceable, as well as an explanation of its application in more lay terms.

I would further suggest that most government employees that provide drafting instructions to the legal drafters have failed to read the C'wealth gov guidance on writing legislation https://www.pmc.gov.au/sites/default...Regulation.pdf

and that the legal drafters choose to ignore it because it make far too much sense --- having said my bit I think that those who are delegated or authorised to police that legislation be they a policeman, a vehicle inspector ( authorised by the transport authority to issue RWC's) or one who actually is an employee of the transport authority need more frequent refresher training and auditing to ensure they are doing their job within the constraints of their authorisation or delegation.

Soap box session over !!!

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

From ADR 13/00
"when operating, display regular flashes of light at a rate of not less than 60, and not more than 120, flashes per minute, "

I was knocked back on the flasher timing problem, LED tail lights on one of my older trucks but informed them it only applied to vehicles built after 1991.

Load resistors inline with the lights will fix that fast flash speed right up with LEDs.

[Charliewool]

Goes on worldwide I suspect?
I had our TJ Jeep Wrangler in for Riteve (yearly roadworthy) the other day.
Over here most expats pay a local service centre to take the car to government Riteve test station.. 2 reasons.. Most licensed Tico mechanics are known to the Riteve guys, and to a lesser extent, the language barrier (regardless of how good you think your Spanish is!)
Anyhow, the links on both front & rear anti-sway bars were found to be stuffed. And a decent wait to get them from USA.
Tico mechanics solution... Remove both bars completely!
What Riteve don’t see, they can’t fail!
Only wish they’d told me that they hadn’t put them back on when I picked vehicle up!
First bend on the Pacific Highway, I nearly put it on it’s roof!