Ford wants Lincoln to be a luxury player with FWD

gazza6 · 02-02-2012, 11:34 AM

Will this have any bearing on the Falcon?

http://www.4wheelsnews.com/ford-want...eel-drive-fwd/

Ford wants Lincoln to be a luxury player with FWD
By Julybien, 01 Feb, 2012. 0 Comments

Lincoln MKZ Concept
In the past, there were two categories of premium vehicles – the true luxury cars and the wannabes – defined by how power was transmitted from the engine to the wheels. Rear-wheel-drive vehicles, like the ones by BMW and Mercedes-Benz, were the true luxury cars, while front-wheel-drive units, produced by other marques, were the wannabes. But that was the past. Presently and for the future, the label “luxury” won’t be determined by the wheel drive configurations.

This came as Ford Motor Co. is preparing its strategy for its Lincoln vehicle that will be based on fwd platforms. Other Ford cars and crossovers will also be using the same platform derived from the One Ford global strategy. Ford plans to differentiate its brands by unique styling and technology that will belong to the Lincoln.

C.J. O'Donnell, Lincoln's group marketing manager, said the brand "will leverage fwd and awd platforms in its first transformational products”, says Autonews. O'Donnell said the brand will remain open to other platforms in the potential long term based on specific consumer or segment-specific requirements. Lincoln's group marketing manager said their products, both fwd and awd vehicles, deliver the attributes that their target customers require -- design, interior package and spaciousness.

Lincoln plans to introduce seven new or refreshed cars, crossovers and SUVs for the next two years. Lincoln recently unveiled its fwd MKZ Concept at the Detroit Auto Show, highlighting the brand’s new styling direction. While some expressed criticisms and concern over Ford’s fwd strategy for the Lincoln, there is no risk involved since the brand is sold only in North America.

Brazen · 02-02-2012, 11:41 AM

I have said it before and I'l said it again. Lincoln is a joke and will never be able to compete with the big boys in the US. Cadillac, Mercedes and BMW.

**Polyal** · 02-02-2012, 11:45 AM

Cadillac is nothing special at all.

But Lincoln going FWD is not good, for many reasons. But O'Donnell mentioned that they will be for first transformational products.

To me that reads short term...long term hopefully RWD is still there, say conveniently around 2016.

Brazen · 02-02-2012, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

Cadillac is nothing special at all.

But Lincoln going FWD is not good, for many reasons. But O'Donnell mentioned that they will be for first transformational products.

To me that reads short term...long term hopefully RWD is still there, say conveniently around 2016.

Cadillac are very special, see a CTS-V or the new RWD 3 series sized ATS. They have passion and putting money into it.

Lincolns are just Taurus with some fancy clothes.

max_torq · 02-02-2012, 12:14 PM

that's just business as usual. Lincoln haven't had a non-SUV RWD for years. During the heyday of the big barges the biggest cadillacs were FWD drive, anyway. In a 7m luxury car having a flat floor is more desireable than hanging out the rear end.

tranquilized · 02-02-2012, 12:22 PM

Well with Cadillac producing concepts like the Ciel, while Lincoln talk about only building FWD, its pretty obvious which 'premium' brand will succeed.

No doubt the Ciel is old news and everyone has seen it before, sorry if thats the case I'm just a bit behind the times. But I cant believe how awesome that thing looks. I just wish it was a Lincholn Continental concept...

Moby Vic · 02-02-2012, 12:25 PM

This saddens me. Ford announced the death of Mercury as an expansion of Lincoln, but what that really seems to mean is that Lincoln is sliding downmarket and will meet Ford in the middle.

Mercury became pointless because there was nothing to differentiate it from Ford other than chrome plating. Lincoln looks to be going the same way.

If Lincoln made AWD standard across the board, it could differentiate itself from Ford. But if it is mostly just really expensive Fords, who will buy it?

Another thing I read about Lincoln recently that concerns me is that the brand wants to appeal to young professional women. Is there a more fickle buying demographic than that??? How could Lincoln possibly anticipate their desires years in advance and keep up with the changes?

And why would a storied luxury marque want to settle for that market, anyway?

2011G6E · 02-02-2012, 12:28 PM

Do you really think he type of person who lays down money on a Lincoln, Caddy, or whatever, really cares which end is doing the driving? Caddilac certainly didn't lose sales when they went through the "ugly stage" many years back with FWD versions..the only thing people critisized was the styling, not the fact it was FWD...

**Polyal** · 02-02-2012, 12:32 PM

So why dont Merc and BMW talk about FWD.....

..its because it lends itself to a better balanced car. Your buying a car that seperates itself from the rest, not just a re-badge.

Concepts are all well and good, and I do like them as it shows vision, but they count for little if they dont make it in some form to production.

To me the article is little more than saying Ford will plug the Lincoln gap now with a Taurus based product and ramp up at some stage with RWD/AWD down the track.

Moby Vic · 02-02-2012, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Do you really think he type of person who lays down money on a Lincoln, Caddy, or whatever, really cares which end is doing the driving? Caddilac certainly didn't lose sales when they went through the "ugly stage" many years back with FWD versions..the only thing people critisized was the styling, not the fact it was FWD...

Then why did Cadillac switch back to RWD, when none of GM's other car divisions offer RWD sedans?

I'm not crazy about current Cadillac styling, but it certainly is distinctive.

Name another luxury marque that uses front-wheel drive. The closest thing I can think of is Acura, and they've been in serious trouble for years.

I applaud Ford for wanting to consolidate chassis, but to survive Lincoln must offer a substantial improvement over Ford.

tranquilized · 02-02-2012, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Do you really think he type of person who lays down money on a Lincoln, Caddy, or whatever, really cares which end is doing the driving? Caddilac certainly didn't lose sales when they went through the "ugly stage" many years back with FWD versions..the only thing people critisized was the styling, not the fact it was FWD...

I think it has a lot to do with perception, and market image.

For a brand to be considered premium, it needs to have some ultra high end models - like the BMW M cars and Mercedes AMG. While very few people actually buy these compared to the lower end models, they project an image over the whole brand.

These kindof models just aren't possible with FWD.

FWD body proportions are far worse - most people aren't able to articulate why cars look good or bad, but its mostly to do with proportion.

Driving dynamics in a large sedan will be superior with RWD, and while its only the journalists who'll notice, their reviews are still influential.

No one with even a passing interest in cars would buy a Lincholn when they can buy the Ford its based off for significantly less.

max_torq · 02-02-2012, 12:45 PM

By the way, the cadiallac ciel is a V6 hybrid AWD...

tranquilized · 02-02-2012, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by max_torq

By the way, the cadiallac ciel is a V6 hybrid AWD...

Yes, but its longitudinally mounted - an important distinction from FWD based AWD cars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Motor Trend

Cadillac also made a point during the reveal to stress that the drivetrain was longitudinally-mounted, not transverse, distancing it from the previously-announced XTS, the ostensible DTS replacement. However, like the XTS, the Ciel features a V-6 powerplant. In this case, a twin-turbocharged 3.6 liter producing an estimated 425 hp and 430 lb-ft of torque.

One of the most telling elements is the Ciel's massive dash to axle ratio. A design cue all truly great looking cars share. Not a person present was anything less than impressed. Caddy just knocked a concept out of the park. Now, let's see them put a roof on it and move some high-end metal.

http://www.motortrend.com/auto_shows...t/viewall.html

max_torq · 02-02-2012, 01:33 PM

how is more weight in front of the axle a desireable feature in any car...

and these kinds of models are quite possible with FWD:

1967 eldorado

1966 oldsmobile toronado

tranquilized · 02-02-2012, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by max_torq

how is more weight in front of the axle a desireable feature in any car...

Its one of the most undesirable features any car could have - the basis of all of the criticisms of Audi dynamics in the recent past for example. Its a huge achilles heel when trying to make a transversely mounted engined car handle well. Which is precisely why longitudinal is far superior - it enables the engine to sit further back in the engine bay behind the axle, necessitating a long bonnet, which in turn looks great.

Quote:

Originally Posted by max_torq

and these kinds of models are quite possible with FWD:

1967 eldorado

1966 oldsmobile toronado

For one, those old boats would handle like a... boat. And the dash to axle ratio is still huge so they look good. FWD with a dash/axle ratio that long means a bonnet as long as a runway - defeating FWD's main advantage - cabin space. Aint gonna happen these days.

jpd80 · 02-02-2012, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

I have said it before and I'l said it again. Lincoln is a joke and will never be able to compete with the big boys in the US. Cadillac, Mercedes and BMW.

Cadillac is a joke, it's biggest seller is a "pig with lipstick" Captiva clone...
They spent close to $6 billion on Sigma to end up with one car, the CTS
which now uses Zeta suspension and is moving to Alpha with the ATS..

Instead of being their own identity, Cadillac is constantly portrayed as a (insert luxury brand) Fighter.
What kind of message does that send to their buyers?

Lincoln is no better, they suffered under Ford by having a single styling design studio,
now that Aussie max Wolff is with them, one of the first thing he asked for was to
have a separate design studio for Lincoln, something badly needed for differentiation.

Brazen · 02-02-2012, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Cadillac is a joke, it's biggest seller is a "pig with lipstick" Captiva clone...
They spent close to $6 billion on Sigma to end up with one car, the CTS
which now uses Zeta suspension and is moving to Alpha with the ATS..

Instead of being their own identity, Cadillac is constantly portrayed as a (insert luxury brand) Fighter.
What kind of message does that send to their buyers?

Lincoln is no better, they suffered under Ford by having a single styling design studio,
now that Aussie max Wolff is with them, one of the first thing he asked for was to
have a separate design studio for Lincoln, something badly needed for differentiation.

Better to be called a BMW fighter, than a Acura fighter....

XR_Strider_GuY · 02-02-2012, 03:52 PM

We know for ultimate driving and steering balance rear wheel drive and front engine is the preferred layout.

Ford are not silly, and before everyone mocks front wheel drive cars. They do have their advantages in the North American market. Take the last examples, Lincoln Town Car verse the Cadillac DTS. I can comment as I have have driven both extensively.

These are both very refined luxury cars and not a Great Ocean Road cornering carver. Having the V8 driving the front wheels gives extra space for the occupants inside and also has less drive line loss over rear wheel drive.

I will say this, the Cadillac DTS is one of the nicest cars I have ever had. It handles better than the heavy riding super soft rear wheel drive Dodge Charger and the Town Car down right feels like a boat.

The DTS is poised, smooth riding, very refined and though not related to this topic has one of the nicest sounding engines ever. I think there is a market for big front wheel drive V8 saloons in North America.

Nikked · 02-02-2012, 04:38 PM

Quote:

O'Donnell said the brand will remain open to other platforms in the potential long term based on specific consumer or segment-specific requirements.

hmm, i.e,,,a rwd premium model?

**Polyal** · 02-02-2012, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikked

hmm, i.e,,,a rwd premium model?

Due 2016/2017 when the Falcon will be rolled into a GWRD.

turboxf · 02-02-2012, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tranquilized

Well with Cadillac producing concepts like the Ciel, while Lincoln talk about only building FWD, its pretty obvious which 'premium' brand will succeed.

image

image

No doubt the Ciel is old news and everyone has seen it before, sorry if thats the case I'm just a bit behind the times. But I cant believe how awesome that thing looks. I just wish it was a Lincholn Continental concept...

Too me that is what it looks like A lincoln continental, what carn't GM design there own cars??????

A lot of you are forgetting the lincoln also has AWD it has for about 4 years now?????
So no need for a RWD one ?????

turboxf · 02-02-2012, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moby Vic

Then why did Cadillac switch back to RWD, when none of GM's other car divisions offer RWD sedans?

I'm not crazy about current Cadillac styling, but it certainly is distinctive.

Name another luxury marque that uses front-wheel drive. The closest thing I can think of is Acura, and they've been in serious trouble for years.

I applaud Ford for wanting to consolidate chassis, but to survive Lincoln must offer a substantial improvement over Ford.

Isn't GM'S rwd platforms come off the commodore???? platform, before they got that all GM cars were FWD , except the CORVETTE ?????

If that hadn't have happened all GM cars would still be FWD ?????

I could be wrong

tranquilized · 02-02-2012, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turboxf

Too me that is what it looks like A lincoln continental, what carn't GM design there own cars??????

A lot of you are forgetting the lincoln also has AWD it has for about 4 years now?????
So no need for a RWD one ?????

It looks very much like a Lincoln Continental, thats why I like it so much! But I agree, the concept is far from original...

All of Lincoln's AWD's are transverse mounted and based on FWD - doesn't cut it for a premium brand IMO

Quote:

Originally Posted by turboxf

Isn't GM'S rwd platforms come off the commodore???? platform, before they got that all GM cars were FWD , except the CORVETTE ?????

If that hadn't have happened all GM cars would still be FWD ?????

I could be wrong

I'm not right up with all the platforms from all the makes, but the Commodore is on Zeta. Sigma is the base of the Cadillac CTS, and they've just released the Alpha in the Cadillac ATS, and it'll be under the new Camaro, new Cadillac CTS, and maybe a few other Chevys like the 130R concept if it goes ahead.
The Australian Zeta will probably not be used for anything else in the future - too heavy.

So GM are a long way ahead of Ford when it comes to RWD it would seem. Its kinda ironic really, as GM were pretty much exclusively FWD after the oil crisis in the 70's. They were the only one of the big 3 that could actually afford to re-engineer every single model to FWD in the pursuit of fuel economy. Looks like the tables have turned somewhat. Ford really really need some GRWD action.

fou_bleu · 02-02-2012, 05:56 PM

RWD this, FWD that, blah blah blah - there's nothing more demoralising to a company's image than their so-called 'fans', honestly!

Lincoln is not reviving the brand to its 'former glory', rather they are working on reinventing it. Gone will be the grandpa Town Car image and in will come the contemporary Lincolns that should appeal to younger buyers through modern styling, more efficient offerings and working on making interiors a more desirable environment than they have been in the recent past. What's wrong with that? Why say you're aiming for BMW/Merc etc. (arguably an aging demographic) and running the risk of failing spectacularly - something Cadillac is risking, with a massive investment in Alpha and the CTS platform...

I'm sure eventually there will be a devoted performance Lincoln, but IMO, it's not a priority at the moment.

As for the FWD/RWD argument, all Lincolns are available in AWD, so is that such as issue?

jpd80 · 02-02-2012, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

Better to be called a BMW fighter, than a Acura fighter....

Cadillac, Lincoln, Lexus and Acura lack something the Euro Luxury brands have in abundance...snob value.

No matter how good you make an entry level luxury brand, it will never be the equal of BMW, MB, Audi, Jaguar......

Both manufacturers continue to fail to understand what makes a true luxury brand,
I think Lincoln needs max Wolff way more than even Ford realises..

Bossxr8 · 02-02-2012, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4RD4TW

As for the FWD/RWD argument, all Lincolns are available in AWD, so is that such as issue?

Its a FWD biased AWD, with transverse engines, which limits power and torque to start with. Ecoboost engines in this configuration are limited to protect the transaxle.

And they can't use the 5.0 Coyote either, as its for longitudunal configs only. Which luxury car maker doesn't have a V8 flagship FFS. No luxury player can be taken seriously without a big V8 flagship. Lincoln used to own this in the US with the Continental.

Acura is the only one I can think of that doesn't have one and they are a minor player with rubbish restyled Hondas. The NSX was the only good Acura.

They need a modern version of this. Put JFK in the advertising if need be

jpd80 · 02-02-2012, 07:01 PM

MKZ and MKX mid sized sedan and crossover are both carrying Lincoln.

MKS is what it is, a reskinned Taurus, Town Car is defunct and its replacement the MKT is just appallingly bad.
Navigator is way beyond its use by date.

The vehicles Lincoln needs is

1) new MKZ (Fusion)
2) new MKX (Edge)
3) "Mariner" (Escape SUV)
4) Aviator (Explorer SUV)
5) Navigator (Expedition SUV )
6) Town Car (Next Gen Fairlane)
7) MKR ( next Thunderbird/Falcon)

Brazen · 02-02-2012, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

MKZ and MKX mid sized sedan and crossover are both carrying Lincoln.

MKS is what it is, a reskinned Taurus, Town Car is defunct and its replacement the MKT is just appallingly bad.
Navigator is way beyond its use by date.

The vehicles Lincoln needs is

1) new MKZ (Fusion)
2) new MKX (Edge)
3) "Mariner" (Escape SUV)
4) Aviator (Explorer SUV)
5) Navigator (Expedition SUV )
6) Town Car (Next Gen Fairlane)
7) MKR ( next Thunderbird/Falcon)

Bingo! great lineup there. Personally as an aside I think 'One Ford' may have disastrous consequences. They are trying too much with too little. Heck even Toyota have different vehicles for their Japanese and European customers to the US.

fou_bleu · 02-02-2012, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Its a FWD biased AWD, with transverse engines, which limits power and torque to start with. Ecoboost engines in this configuration are limited to protect the transaxle.

Not too much different from Audi's FWD based systems then, eh? If Lincoln sees it fit to make a high powered CD4 car, then they will engineer it to allow the power, things like this aren't concrete and can be further developed, surely you can understand that?

Quote:

And they can't use the 5.0 Coyote either, as its for longitudunal configs only. Which luxury car maker doesn't have a V8 flagship FFS. No luxury player can be taken seriously without a big V8 flagship. Lincoln used to own this in the US with the Continental.

Why are people expecting Lincoln to have a new V8 RWD 'flagship' platform (S197 or E8 'won't do' for a Lincoln if it's such an issue) financed, designed, engineered and released last week just to be 'taken seriously'? And by whom exactly will this matter to? The 'fan' base who are more than likely to not put their money where their mouths are anyway? Honestly, do you all really think people pay the big money for a BMW or Merc solely because they're RWD, because that's what you're implying...

I for sure don't know Lincoln's plans are, but I do have this thing called common sense and the ability to form my own opinion rather than to be a "RWD!!!" sheep...

Brazen · 02-02-2012, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4RD4TW

Not too much different from Audi's FWD based systems then, eh? If Lincoln sees it fit to make a high powered CD4 car, then they will engineer it to allow the power, things like this aren't concrete and can be further developed, surely you can understand that?

Why are people expecting Lincoln to have a new V8 RWD 'flagship' platform (S197 or E8 'won't do' for a Lincoln if it's such an issue) financed, designed, engineered and released last week just to be 'taken seriously'? And by whom exactly will this matter to? The 'fan' base who are more than likely to not put their money where their mouths are anyway? Honestly, do you all really think people pay the big money for a BMW or Merc solely because they're RWD, because that's what you're implying...

I for sure don't know Lincoln's plans are, but I do have this thing called common sense and the ability to form my own opinion rather than to be a "RWD!!!" sheep...

Mercedes and BMW are seen as premium, others arnt....what's the difference? Rear wheel drive. Even Lexus knows they have to have rear wheel drive.