Why did Toyota go so.....plain?

**Polyal** · 25-05-2011, 09:08 AM

This is not intended to be a bashing thread but just a general observation of what once was (or still is?) the number one automaker.

Toyota historically have had decent aspirational cars before, and they did a good job of it. Off the top of my head;

2000GT
Older Corolla's (RWD)
Celica's
Supra
MR2 (mainly the 80's one but the mini Ferrari went ok to)

Now ok not all of them above have been great over there entire life span, but you can say that for any model...Mustang for example.

So what changed in the company to say nope, thats it, no more? Dont think it would be lack of funds, did they just want to nail the A-B consumers out there?

This was brought on by the "new" Camry pics and how little it has changed, just a tweak here and there.

I grant them the Lexus IFA is an attempt but obviously out of reach for many.

Recent recalls and bad press has tarnished their reliability aura, although perhaps more of a dent than anything else, perhaps something is on the cards soon.

Honda is another one to have dropped the ball a bit, although its rumored that the NSX is making a comeback, but we have been hearing that for years.

JC807 · 25-05-2011, 09:09 AM

there are still some good Toyotas available in Japan.

Iggypoppin' · 25-05-2011, 09:16 AM

I still can't work out why they stopped making the supra. A RWD Toyota sedan with a big wack of turbo goodness is pretty cool. And I have never equated Lexus and Toyota as the same thing, I know that they pretty much are but if it's a Toyota it'll be wearing the Toyota badge, so as far as I can see Toyota have nothing cool for sale here ATM. (in terms of sedans).

**Polyal** · 25-05-2011, 09:17 AM

True but their domestic market is pretty unique in some ways, some of the mini/small cars are crazy and wouldnt sell outside of Japan.

They have a Astrido or something, which is specced well but again only local. I have seen a few Chaser's around which look the business with the right mods.

But the rest of the world misses out unless you import and most normal people would never do that.

Ford_The_Win · 25-05-2011, 09:17 AM

Their cars are built for a global market, and need to be conservative to appeal to an incredibly broad range of customers. They have a very loyal customer base who don't expect outlandish or bold cars from Toyota, just quality and reliability.

Fev · 25-05-2011, 09:18 AM

I wish they still made small RWD coupes - oh wait, the FT-86 is coming WOO!!

**DJR-351** · 25-05-2011, 09:20 AM

Next year...??

http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor...302-1be0b.html

Edit: Dammit Fev..!!

flappist · 25-05-2011, 09:26 AM

MONEY.....

I suspect they decided to make cars that the majority of people want to buy rather that niche vehicles for a very fickle minority group.

They have a second marque, Lexus, that makes all the go fast sporty machines. If you want a fast RWD high build quality Toyota buy a ISF or IS350.

And before you start crying that they are too expensive, Supras etc were bloody expensive in their day too.

1990 Supra Targa RRP $73k
1992 EB GT RRP $62k

flappist · 25-05-2011, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iggypoppin'

I still can't work out why they stopped making the supra. A RWD Toyota sedan with a big wack of turbo goodness is pretty cool. And I have never equated Lexus and Toyota as the same thing, I know that they pretty much are but if it's a Toyota it'll be wearing the Toyota badge, so as far as I can see Toyota have nothing cool for sale here ATM. (in terms of sedans).

Where is the Falcon or Ford badge on a FPV?

**DJR-351** · 25-05-2011, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

MONEY.....

I suspect they decided to make cars that the majority of people want to buy rather that niche vehicles for a very fickle minority group.

Exactly, they would not have got to where they are today by catering to the enthusiast....

sanchoXB · 25-05-2011, 09:36 AM

They didnt make them for long but I think the supercharged TRD Aurion is a good looking car. A BA GT will outrun it eventually but the Aurion is quicker off the mark & handles better.

flappist · 25-05-2011, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanchoXB

They didnt make them for long but I think the supercharged TRD Aurion is a good looking car. A BA GT will outrun it eventually but the Aurion is quicker off the mark & handles better.

I suspect you have never driven a TRD Aurion.

They are one of the truly frightening cars I have had the misfortune to drive.

They can be wonderful provided the road is flat and smooth but if the road is bumpy and full of potholes (read the road is in Australia) and you stand on the noise pedal the electronic anti torquesteer system has a woopsie and they try to go exactly where they feel like going which is usually not where you are trying to point them.

Poetic Justice · 25-05-2011, 09:43 AM

Different CEO's call for different measures also. I believe once the current TMC CEO Akio Toyoda was instated he said he wanted to bring passion back to the marque.

I was talking to a TMCA product planner a few weeks ago, asked him why when they say that the Toyota Aurion is game changing in Australia, why on earth they wouldn't consider to bring this car to the australian market:

Being a RHD I can't see how it would take too much to adapt to the Australian design rules etc. It is a far better looking car than the Aurion in my opinion. It also has an AWD option in Japan.

As far as blandness goes I believe the FT86 will test the waters, if it is successful it should spawn a few more spirited cars. If it fails, they will stick to what is currently working for them.

The Toyota philosophy is not necessarily to have 'sexy' cars, but to have a car that competes well in every class. Apart from sports cars, they currently have that pretty well covered.

**Polyal** · 25-05-2011, 09:53 AM

The Crown even has some history here! It looks ok.

Flappy, about money, fair to say that if they were selling well then they would have continued but from what I remember the Celica was pretty popular (perhaps except for the last version, they didnt do that well)..every second hair dresser had one.

The Supra has a massive following aswell, Ill see if I can find some production numbers but Id be surprised if they lost money on them. Talking wordwide here, not just Oz.

I would love a RWD focus type car, similar to the BMW 1 series but a little more room in the back so more than amputees could fit in. That would be a golden car. Put the ecoboost engine in, manual to keep costs down..bam done.

**Raptor** · 25-05-2011, 09:57 AM

Why are they so...plain?

Because Toyota become one of the first automakers whose primary goal was to turn a profit rather than produce the best cars it was capable of. That's usually the start of the rot.

Brazen · 25-05-2011, 09:59 AM

Personally I think Honda has gone a lot more downhill, compare a late 80s Civic (one of the most fun small cars ever) to a new one. The old civic had beautiful double wishbone suspensions, now they have the simpler MacPherson Strut and Torsion bar suspension. They have lost their engineering excellence, styling, delicateness.

Nowadays Hondas are just fat, soft, overpriced cars made for Middle America.

4.0i OHC · 25-05-2011, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

I suspect you have never driven a TRD Aurion.

They are one of the truly frightening cars I have had the misfortune to drive.

They can be wonderful provided the road is flat and smooth but if the road is bumpy and full of potholes (read the road is in Australia) and you stand on the noise pedal the electronic anti torquesteer system has a woopsie and they try to go exactly where they feel like going which is usually not where you are trying to point them.

I've never driven a TRD Aurion, but I have driven a standard Aurion. It handles terribly, with bucket loads of torque steer. It doesn't seem to want to go where you point it. Truly dangerous. However, my father (who has absolutely no standards when it comes to a car's handling) said it handled okay.

And yet it doesn't seem as powerful as, say, a BA, and it's tiny inside, and no matter what anyone says, I found the interior quality to be far behind that of the BA onwards Falcon (and miles behind the AU).

4.0i OHC · 25-05-2011, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

Personally I think Honda has gone a lot more downhill, compare a late 80s Civic (one of the most fun small cars ever) to a new one. The old civic had beautiful double wishbone suspensions, now they have the simpler MacPherson Strut and Torsion bar suspension. They have lost their engineering excellence, styling, delicateness.

Nowadays Hondas are just fat, soft, overpriced cars made for Middle America.

Never driven a Honda, but how can the same company who produced the beautiful NSX produce the vomit-inducing Civic? Civics in the NSX days (as well as the Integra and Prelude) looked pretty great too.

flappist · 25-05-2011, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

Flappy, about money, fair to say that if they were selling well then they would have continued but from what I remember the Celica was pretty popular (perhaps except for the last version, they didnt do that well)..every second hair dresser had one.

Really?

So you knew what a Celica and a hairdresser was when you were in kindegarten?

**Polyal** · 25-05-2011, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Really?

So you knew what a Celica and a hairdresser was when you were in kindegarten?

Is it your aim to be condescending in every post?

This one, AFAIK was the last gen I was talking about.

prasac · 25-05-2011, 10:24 AM

i was born and bred into a Ford family, yet i drive a Toyota

they may be ''plain'' looking but so is a Falcon XT or Commondore. yet lower them throw a body kit on them they look good as the TRD Aurion showed.

reliability, is what most people look for when buying a car. which is what Toyota has proven time and time again and which is probably why they are the world's largest car manufacturer. everyone knows if u want reliability u buy a Toyota.

the new FT-86 IMHO is a fantastic looking car, and funnily if i am to buy another car it (with an engine upgrade and turbo) or the Hyundai Genesis Coupe would be one of the next cars i buy for daily driving. being a Ford man, that is testament to what the Asian builders are doing these days, and just how good they are becoming

Brazen · 25-05-2011, 10:28 AM

I actually think the Sportivo range of Camry and Aurions are really nicely balanced. The base suspension Camry/Aurions are a bit doughy but they suit the buyers who want a bit more comfort.

ray38l · 25-05-2011, 10:30 AM

I can see ford being as bland as Toyota soon. One ford will kill all original ideas and styling and cater to the lowest common denominator, boring people. It will happen eventually.

sanchoXB · 25-05-2011, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

I suspect you have never driven a TRD Aurion.

They are one of the truly frightening cars I have had the misfortune to drive.

They can be wonderful provided the road is flat and smooth but if the road is bumpy and full of potholes (read the road is in Australia) and you stand on the noise pedal the electronic anti torquesteer system has a woopsie and they try to go exactly where they feel like going which is usually not where you are trying to point them.

The one I drove was one of the last built, maybe they had fixed the issues by then, I drove it from coffs harbour to tamworth via waterfall way which crosses the great dividing range, normally over the mountains you get overtaken by motorbikes, in the Aurion I was being slowed down by motorbikes, I think that gives a pretty good idea of how well it handled.

**Polyal** · 25-05-2011, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ray38l

I can see ford being as bland as Toyota soon. One ford will kill all original ideas and styling and cater to the lowest common denominator, boring people. It will happen eventually.

Not anytime soon, and you can use that theory for any major manufacturer. Ford wont get rid of the Mustang in a hurry, even though we dont get that here, but if the Falcon dies then maybe we might get a look in come the next gen.

Focus gets the RS and XR5T/XR4, Fiesta has XR4, even the mondeo has a "performance" version.

Heck look at the SVT Raptor. Ford has plenty of kick in it, sadly at the moment we see only the euro models..hopefully that changes.

Not that this thread has anything to do with Ford.

prasac · 25-05-2011, 10:41 AM

i have driven the TRD Aurion, had a small amount of torque steer nothing that wasn't controlable. my ZR6 has none at all, i have lent it to alot of people to drive, guys that have stock 6-cylinder Ford's/Holden's etc. the reply i always get back is u sure it's a FWD it handles so well and has no torque steer at all

flappist · 25-05-2011, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

Is it your aim to be condescending in every post?

This one, AFAIK was the last gen I was talking about.

Well maybe not as condesecending as referring to something as "hairdresser cars" because they don't fit ito your personal view of who should drive what..

I rang my niece who is a hairdresser in Sunny Coast and asked her what everyone there drove, just to see what "hairdresser cars" actually are.

Hers is a Commodore wagon, she is not sure what year but it is blue and auto.
There is also Barina, an AU sedan, a Camry and most amusingly a bright green FPV Pursuit driven by the male hairdresser.

Not one single Celica to be seen anywhere.........

**Polyal** · 25-05-2011, 11:12 AM

And pedantic....you called for that? Most people know the term "hair dressers car" and what it means, its just slang, dont be so serious.

Just encase you havent heard of it, because life is different up your way, its basically refers to a sports car that is more of a styling exercise than a drivers car..thats it.

I forgot you have never generalized before.

This is just a general comment on the direction that Toyota has taken and perhaps why.

Iggypoppin' · 25-05-2011, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Where is the Falcon or Ford badge on a FPV?

FPV= ford performance vehicles.
At least it has it's parent company in the badge as an initial.
Toyota and it's offshoot luxury brand Lexus don't quite have the same effect, it's highly uncommon but a few people around my age group did not even know that lexus' are built off Toyota chassis' and that Toyota own them.

flappist · 25-05-2011, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iggypoppin'

FPV= ford performance vehicles.
At least it has it's parent company in the badge as an initial.
Toyota and it's offshoot luxury brand Lexus don't quite have the same effect, it's highly uncommon but a few people around my age group did not even know that lexus' are built off Toyota chassis' and that Toyota own them.

Toyota Luxury EXport United States