GPS device concerns - should we be worried??

[David See]

Hi all,

I am the proud owner of a Road Angel Evo - the best device I have bought for ages. Being told that you are appraoching a school zone - only when the school zones are "in force" - is amazing. The voice means I do not have to take my eyes off the road to know what hazard lies ahead. My car is my office and I am in it driving long distances nearly ever day. In the week I have had the EVO I am sure I have become a safer driver - much more aware.

I did have a concern tonight, though. It may not happen now, but what about in the future:

On purchasing the EVO, you have to register it before you can use it properly by getting the latest software download. Fair enough.

However, all your details are recorded against a serial number of the EVO. In the current technology where amazing amounts of info can be displayed using satellite technology, what would happen if this info was recorded against your EVO?

For example, let's say I was driving at 10km/h over the speed limit at 2pm and my co-ordinates were Buladelah. Then at 3pm I was driving at 70km/h and my co-ordinates showed King Street Newcastle. I would be doing 10km/h over the limit. This would be at least twice in one day I had been speeding, for whatever reason.

The EVO knows I was doing this speed and in relation to my GPS co-ordinates and this info could be used by an authority. I fear at some stage in the near future this info will be used to book us for speeding without the intervetntion of Police. The GPS device data will do that for them.

The "system" knew I was speeding at such-and-such a time due to what speed I was doing and where.

It might sound paranoid, but I am sure this is one reason GPS units are not being seen as detrimental to the authorities. Pretty soon all GPS units will be registered to our cars and all travel data will be recorded against that car.

This is frightening. It wouldn't be so frightening if you didn't have to register a unit to a car/person.

I would like to know from one of the GPS navigator manufacturers what their view is on this.

On the other hand, this info could HELP us fight speeding fines if the GPS proved the fine incorrect, but I am sure the info would go against us more than not.

Food for thought!

If we get info from a Satellite, could the satellite get info from us?

[Boza]

i personally think that you think way too much so obviously you have too much time on your hands and maybe you should stop watching conspiracy theory docco's

i have owned heaps of navigation systems and that thought never crossed my mind o've had tom tom's, navmans etc.. and you have to register them and download the software same as road angel.

[David See]

Actually, I thought the potential was pretty obvious...

I must concede, I do have plenty of time to think spending so much time in the car. White line fever, perhaps?? he he

[plext]

Not really likely. The device would need to be recording the information and would also need some method of transmitting this data to an 'authority'.

Said data would also need to be able to be verified as accurate via an MD5sum or similar, meaning that the system recording method would have to be 100% tamper proof. Any copyright protection system author will tell you that this is very difficult (DVD encryption anyone?) at best.

Besides the above, I could not really see the public wearing such an imposition.

[jimmy_c]

I wouldnt rely on GPS speed to be 100pc accurate unless your doing 1000kph or sitting on the end of a good missile.

I have found a few times on the F3 that my speed is showing 110kph on the car yet the GPS is showing 85 or 90. unless it was verified or you have precision equipment i wouldnt rely on your gps in court.


BUt I can see what your on about and Big Brother will catch up soon enough,

[Hally]

There are two things I don't think you have considered:

1. GPS devices are portable, and can be used in any vehcile and by a multitude of drivers. You do not supply details every time you turn it on.

2. The IT infrastructure needed to record movements etc for all GPS units would be massive.

3. the reason that you provide details when purchasing a GPS unit is so that if it gets stolen it can be locked or disbled.

In summary, don't stress about it!

Cheers,

Andrew

[OldManGhia]

I might be wrong here but the GPS doesn't calculate your position constantly but rather every few seconds or so. The point is that as soon as you go around a corner the GPS calculates your speed between two points eg point A at the start of the corner and point B at the end of the corner therefore the distance travelled going around the corner is greater than the distance between point A and point B hence your speed will be calculated as less than you are actually going. Just a thought.

[BAWagonWheels]

the only gps devices you should worry about are the ones with back to base security fitted with them as they transmit info the your security provide when car has been stolen within the activated duration of the security system and also if you hit the panic button. this method will transmit the car location, time, speed, direction and even have an option to remotely immobilise the car from back to base by your security firm. whether the firm has strict policy on sharing info with authorities or third party varies but you never know how easy it can leak.

as for normal gps car navigation, there's nothing to be worried about. all it does is gather your gps coordinates from the satellite and calculates your trip. there's really no secret transmission to Mars.

[WILDTRAKPX2]

Just make sure you booby trap your residence, have an escape plan, train your eyes to see while taped wide open, practice high speed getaways whilst strapped into a wheelchair and keep an eye out for this bloke:

[David See]

Interesting stuff. But, it was just a thought.

And, if the public "wouldn't cop it", then what about obviously shonky speed cameras? We can't seem to do too much about them, even though they have been proven to be inaccurate.

I had heard that someone had been convicted of an offence overseas due to the datat on their GPS. I never thought of this really, as I used to have a Uniden unit that didn't require registration.

[AnthonyQLD]

A little bit off topic, but the VE Commodore will come with such a system in place designed for fleet cars and private vehicles.

"Drivers of Holden’s new VE Commodore could have their every move monitored and recorded by their boss

Don’t think you can take a long lunch or go for a weekend blast in your next new Commodore: your boss will know exactly what you’re up to.

Holden has expanded its fledgling Telematics system on the new VE Commodore to help fleet owners maximise vehicle usage. But the system and the data it collects could equally be used to monitor employee work habits and driving behaviour.

The new system installed on VE Commodore, says Paul Gibson, Holden electrical engineering manager, can and will send comprehensive information on the use of the vehicle to fleet managers in real time.

Gibson says the system will give fleet managers unprecedented access to usage information on their fleets, with the aim of maximising resources. Information on kilometres covered at various speeds, operating times for the car, fuel consumption data and vehicle location will all be available to fleet managers.

Part of the system uses mobile phone technology that can pinpoint a vehicle's location any time the vehicle is in use. The system also records each time the vehicle is started or stopped, speeds the vehicle has been driven at, and usage statistics like fuel consumption and tyre wear.

In other words, drivers of fleet Commodores will have their every driving move watched, recorded and scrutinised.

Excessive fuel consumption or tyre wear could indicate aggressive driving.

Peak vehicle speeds, usage times, it could all be used to monitor employee vehicle use and potentially job performance.

Three levels of Holden Assist are available when the Commodore is ordered, or they can be dealer fitted at a later time.

GM Fleet View, says Gibson, "enables fleet owners to track and record information on all their fleet cars, and can communicate with the driver via messaging on the radio display".

Holden Assist Secure is a security package which can notify the owner of attempted break-ins or theft. It can then follow the car with satellite tracking.

Holden Assist Ultra takes this one step further, using a built-in mobile phone to contact emergency services in the event of a crash or Holden call centre after a breakdown.

Gibson says the technology itself is not sinister, it all comes down to what it's used for by fleet operators.

He said some fleet managers may choose to disclose to drivers what data will be recorded and what use it will be put to.

But he said Holden would not set operating guidelines, it would be up to each fleet operator to make their own decision."

[notty1978]

i have the navman its great
i just hate when its tells me my average speed is 105 and the speed limit is 110

[mark180227]

my dad has one of the tom tom gps units. great little machine works a treat. there was one instance tho where he was told to go up a one way street in the opposite direction.

[GT-E]

I have a client that has a GPS fleet system in their Vans. Sitting on a PC in their office you can see all the vans on a big map of Melbourne. Clicking on one of the vans shows the current speed, total distance and average speed. We even called up one of the drivers and told him to slow down as he was doing 80 in a 60 zone. He did not like Big brother watching, but we thought it was funny.
GPS system cannot be used to convict you of an offence, and on the flipside you also cannot use them of proof of your speed either to get off a fine.

My Streetpilot GPS has a maximum speed of 818km/h after I stuck it against the window on the flight back from Melbourne. I would hate a cop to book me for that.....

[David See]

Well, I think it is only a matter of time before they are used against us. Look at the info on the new Commodore. Now *that's* frightening.

[DanielXR8]

Unless you have differential GPS and a minimal amount of dilution of precision on the signal, you could argue convincingly and with plenty of evidence, that the GPS device in your car is no where near accurate enough to be used as a speed enforcement tool. In many cases it will be as accurate as your speedo, but as has already been pointed out, that can vary quite a bit based on weather conditions, type of fix, number of satellites you can read and their strength etc.

The usual kinds of GPS devices in peoples cars are only rated for 5 to 15 meter accuracy and the ones that can do a better job, cost a fortune or in the case of military spec, not available to you and me.

Rest easy - that is one thing they can't do well enough to book you on.

The more likely scenario is they will want to link your cars maximum speed to what the posted speed is on the road, with some kind of "safe speed" the car will allow if it looses GPS signal or can't get a 3D lock. There are heaps of problems with this scenario, but it hasnt stopped some dimwits in the UK trialling it and suggesting it is the next great cure to road deaths.

Daniel

[schmidty]

The current holden setup is scary enough! We were on our way to our wedding reception in a VY2 HSV Senator. Someone left the passenger window down at a servo and the car was locked. Someone else wanted to get into the boot to get a drink so they opened the glovebox and pushed the boot release throug the window. Almost immediately after we got back in the car, and the guy driving nailed it back out onto the highway, and kept going, and going, and going. He hit 200kph and from about 160kph the music stopped and the radio came up with voice on. We're all looking at it saying "whats the go with the voice on?" He's hit 200 and a voice comes through the speakers asking who the driver was, and said if we didnt immediately give him the password for the car he'd shut it down.
The driver gave him the password, then the operator began to question us, before stating that they had noted the alarm being activated, followed by the car being started and driven in excess of 200kph and he continued to tell us our exact location. As the guy driving the car wasn't the owner, they had to call the owner and inform him of the situation and get his authorisation to let us continue on our way. After the operator stopped talking, the radio still said voice on for about another 3 minutes, so they were still listening in on us.

[AnthonyQLD]

And you would travel at 200kph why???

[merlin]

Originally Posted by schmidty

The current holden setup is scary enough! We were on our way to our wedding reception in a VY2 HSV Senator. Someone left the passenger window down at a servo and the car was locked. Someone else wanted to get into the boot to get a drink so they opened the glovebox and pushed the boot release throug the window. Almost immediately after we got back in the car, and the guy driving nailed it back out onto the highway, and kept going, and going, and going. He hit 200kph and from about 160kph the music stopped and the radio came up with voice on. We're all looking at it saying "whats the go with the voice on?" He's hit 200 and a voice comes through the speakers asking who the driver was, and said if we didnt immediately give him the password for the car he'd shut it down.
The driver gave him the password, then the operator began to question us, before stating that they had noted the alarm being activated, followed by the car being started and driven in excess of 200kph and he continued to tell us our exact location. As the guy driving the car wasn't the owner, they had to call the owner and inform him of the situation and get his authorisation to let us continue on our way. After the operator stopped talking, the radio still said voice on for about another 3 minutes, so they were still listening in on us.

WTF? A talking car :

[schmidty]

Originally Posted by AnthonyQLD

And you would travel at 200kph why???

I wasn't the driver, and no one egged him on, he just did it. Stupid.