The knock on effect of Holden's commitment to stay in S.A.

[Bud Bud]

From the Adelaide now website-
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/s...rom=public_rss

I know a lot of people have different opinions on this forum and in society in general about any government handing out tax payer's money to corporations like Holden to ensure that they can remain viable enough to remain manufacturing in this country, but this article clearly shows how important big business like Holden are to the growing communities that surround and support them.

The knock on effect can be far worse than just the employees of Holden and the surrounding parts supply companies losing their jobs, it would also stifle future investment from both mums and dads such as on the family home or a new car or TV etc. (remember that somebody has to build/sell these things to them), but also from developers building these new suburbs or major developments such as shopping centres, or even government investment on schools, road and rail infrastructure because without this investment then they will ultimately create new ghettos that can potentially cost billions long term in social security and a degrading social and commercial infrastructure over the next generation or so. That money would still need to come from the tax payer albeit with ironically less tax payers contributing because of these types of situations anyway

That is the bigger picture.

It would be a shame for Australia to lose both Holden and Ford manufacturing to the new overseas game players but at least with Holden, they have committed to the short and medium future. I would love nothing more than for Ford to fire up take a tough stance and work the feds over for a similar deal so that they too can secure their future in this country for themselves their supporters and their surrounding communities as a whole as well. Otherwise we will still end up paying for it and possibly more regardless.

Just my opinion but I would love to hear other people's point of view though.

Bud Bud.

[pottery beige]

Holdens is literally just around the corner from where I live.. aussie in jobs you will get no apologies from me as I wish them every bit of survival as Ford.....

[Shonky.]

Absolutely! Inaddition there are so many positive externalities for a small country to havean automotive industry.

Just like the space program. I don’t know that anyone has benefited from putting a man on the moon. As an investment on face value it seems likea dud, but the program pushed the frontier of science and manufacturingtechnology. Carbon fibre, titanium etcwere positive externalities born out of the program.

In a similar way and on a smaller scale keepingmanufacturing in our country will ensure we don’t end up a nation with noskills except digging holes. (Totalrespect to our hard working miners of course, but we need broad skills in manyindustries)

Just because you can’t measure profit in the same year doesnot mean something is not a viable pursuit over a longer time period.

Pouring money into the car industry should in some ways bethought of as comparable to pouring money into schools and educationprograms. There is no immediate,measurable profit from these activities, but they are still worthwhile, as theinvestment will filter back into a payoff over time.

[DoreSlamR]

Originally Posted by shonkymofo

Absolutely! Inaddition there are so many positive externalities for a small country to havean automotive industry.

There are positives with having any large industry working nearby, the difference here is that the Australian automotive industry requires government hand outs to support it, do you see BHP needing government handouts?

Just like the space program. I don’t know that anyone has benefited from putting a man on the moon. As an investment on face value it seems likea dud, but the program pushed the frontier of science and manufacturingtechnology. Carbon fibre, titanium etcwere positive externalities born out of the program.

Did you just compare the motor industry with the space industry?

Apples and oranges my friend and any any frontier technologies in the car industry will rarely be found in an Australian built car...

In a similar way and on a smaller scale keepingmanufacturing in our country will ensure we don’t end up a nation with noskills except digging holes. (Totalrespect to our hard working miners of course, but we need broad skills in manyindustries)

I agree that we should keep manufacturing jobs here, but whilst there is a cheaper market elsewhere, it's not going to happen.

And the mining industry requires a massive amount of different skills...Have you been to a remote mine camp? The larger ones are essentially a small town and has everything a small town has.

Doctors
Nurses
Gardeners
Chefs
Cleaners
Plumbers
Electricians
Physiotherapists
Fitness instructers

And this is all at the camp, I haven't listed anything for the actual mine.

Just because you can’t measure profit in the same year doesnot mean something is not a viable pursuit over a longer time period.

Pouring money into the car industry should in some ways bethought of as comparable to pouring money into schools and educationprograms. There is no immediate,measurable profit from these activities, but they are still worthwhile, as theinvestment will filter back into a payoff over time.

The Australian car industry is not a viable pursuit any more, it hasn't been since the 70's when the government slapped ridiculous taxes on imports to keep Australian built cars on parity.

We need to get with the times, this isn't the 50's where everything was made here because it took too long and was too expensive to import, we're at a point where Asian labour is so cheap, we just can't compete any more.

It's a fact you'll have to face eventually...

[Shonky.]

Originally Posted by DoreSlamR

There are positives with having any large industry working nearby, the difference here is that the Australian automotive industry requires government hand outs to support it, do you see BHP needing government handouts?



Did you just compare the motor industry with the space industry?

Apples and oranges my friend and any any frontier technologies in the car industry will rarely be found in an Australian built car...



I agree that we should keep manufacturing jobs here, but whilst there is a cheaper market elsewhere, it's not going to happen.

And the mining industry requires a massive amount of different skills...Have you been to a remote mine camp? The larger ones are essentially a small town and has everything a small town has.

Doctors
Nurses
Gardeners
Chefs
Cleaners
Plumbers
Electricians
Physiotherapists
Fitness instructers

And this is all at the camp, I haven't listed anything for the actual mine.




The Australian car industry is not a viable pursuit any more, it hasn't been since the 70's when the government slapped ridiculous taxes on imports to keep Australian built cars on parity.

We need to get with the times, this isn't the 50's where everything was made here because it took too long and was too expensive to import, we're at a point where Asian labour is so cheap, we just can't compete any more.

It's a fact you'll have to face eventually...

Australia has a comparative advantage in mining, due to having such an abundance of resources (that and proximity to Asia compared to other ore producers such as Brazil, reducing shipping costs) so no it certainly doesn’tneed handouts, on the contrary.

But I don’t think we should hold every other industry to account to perform as well as mining.

The point I was trying to make with the Space program comparison is that not all externalities are immediately measurable like the ones that have previously been identify (and are most commonly cited) such as public and private spending to support an industry.

Just like American consumers would not have expected their tax dollars spent on the Space program to result in materials that will change their life for the better, Australians do not realise that there are positive outflows from the automotive industry that will enhance our productivity and quality of life in the future.

By applying such a simple approach to gauging the worth ofan industry, the answer would be yes, let’s only be a primary producer and import all finished goods. The negative externalities of doing so while not immediately measureable would be significant.

[Nikked]

Mining isn't permanent remember...

They will pack and leave, taking all there profits with them once the resource dries up.

Better to invest in industries that can stay here...

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Mining isn't permanent remember...

They will pack and leave, taking all there profits with them once the resource dries up.

Better to invest in industries that can stay here...

You never heard about the bronze age!! as far as i know the minerals used over the last few thousands of years didnt fall out of the sky (they were mined), thus i think its a safe bet mining will be around for a while yet. And yet if mining did stop, what do you think they would make cars with.

Considering BHP has a market capilisation of approx. $200 billion, has head office in melbourne, and has tens of billions of dollars invested in Australia, I think they might stay around a bit longer than GM Holden (who as of a few years ago had no net assets in australia), and are run from Detroit.

Bud Bud - because without this investment then they will ultimately create new ghettos

The irony there is that largest collection of ghetto like suburbs in SA are those surrounding the GMH site.

[mik]

my 2 bobs worth , i reckon it worth the small hand outs given to the car manufacturers as an incentive, you may think that imports are cheaper , but they don`t do a lot for our economy in my eyes,
building motor cars is a fairly labour intensive process, even though a lot of it done by robots , that in it`s self gives work to skilled people in upgrading maintenance, apart from the car workers, suppliers, transport, etc.
ever wondered how much taxes are made by govco from a car plant and the associated industries that are involved in it?
i have no clue , but i`m betting it`s a considerable amount, 200 million these days is a drop in the ocean anyway.
govco is spending 20 mill on advertising for the carbon tax, it`s obviously peanuts to them.

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

The irony there is that largest collection of ghetto like suburbs in SA are those surrounding the GMH site.

eletist snob much bob..???

[ray38l]

Originally Posted by DoreSlamR

There are positives with having any large industry working nearby, the difference here is that the Australian automotive industry requires government hand outs to support it, do you see BHP needing government handouts?

Bhp get handouts just not in the form of direct cash.
they pay about a quarter the cost of diesel the general public do. the last mine I worked at went through 100000 liters of diesel every 12 hours. I can't be bothered doing the maths but that works out to be quite a big saving when you consider how many mines they own. include all the mining companies in that and it makes the auto industry look not to bad.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by ray38l

Bhp get handouts just not in the form of direct cash.
they pay about a quarter the cost of diesel the general public do. the last mine I worked at went through 100000 liters of diesel every 12 hours. I can't be bothered doing the maths but that works out to be quite a big saving when you consider how many mines they own. include all the mining companies in that and it makes the auto industry look not to bad.

exactly. many industries get assistance, but because its not in the form of cash handouts, no one knows or cares. cash handouts make headlines for all the wrong reasons. if the govt had a 'buy only aussie made cars' policy, they would probably find they wouldn't need to hand out so much cash.

[graham7773]

I know this a Ford Forum. I also know that both Ford and GMH produce good cars and are worth supporting. This quote really puts the assistance received by Ford further in to the light.
Ford declared the future of the Falcon was secure until 2016 after investing $103 million, $34 million of which will come from the Federal Government with an estimated $19 million from the Victorian Government.
So Holden is not the only car maker receiving financial help from the government and I seem to remember Mitsubishi receiving some Millions of dollars a few years ago. Did not help them.

[Shonky.]

Regardless of what brand it is, manufacturing in Australia is a good thing for Australia.

I would rather see the Government spend money propping up local manufacturing so that young engineers have somewhere to work other than mining rather than on some of the ridiculous **** it gets spent on, or just as bad, saved up as a surplus only to be handed back just before an election to get p155ed away on Chinese imports.

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

The irony there is that largest collection of ghetto like suburbs in SA are those surrounding the GMH site.

Been there before. You ain't seen no ghetto yet, until you visit the western suburbs of Melbourne (*cough werribee/melton/st albans).

[tranquilized]

This thread is quite a refreshing contrast to the usual right-wing rants that go on around here.

And I agree - the government supporting the motor industry in Australia is a good thing with many positive knock-on effects. The worry is that this wont continue to happen after the next federal election...

[SB076]

http://www.successful.com.au/blog/ta...manufacturing/

Manufacturing creates (indirectly) four jobs for every one person it employees, no other industry in Australia currently can match this. The Aus Governemnt has said (and I have heard it from ministers themselves) that for Australia to be even remotely successful we need to have a strong manufacturing industry. I dont agree with how the governments are attempting to strenghen the industry but I do agree that this industry needs to be successful for Australia to be successful.

[SB076]

http://www.successful.com.au/blog/ta...manufacturing/

Manufacturing creates (indirectly) four jobs for every one person it employees, no other industry in Australia currently can match this. The Aus Governemnt has said (and I have heard it from ministers themselves) that for Australia to be even remotely successful we need to have a strong manufacturing industry. I dont agree with how the governments are attempting to strenghen the industry but I do agree that this industry needs to be successful for Australia to be successful.