FPV Falcon F6 AWD

[barra240t]

Hi all,

I was just wondering has anyone attempted building such a beast? I know someone on here is building an AWD wagon.

I know the HSV Coupe 4 was a flop due to weight etc but I've always wondered what a Falcon AWD would be like with the F6 engine. We actually sort of had it in the Territory F6X and that thing was a beast, it did like to drink though!

A flared F6 would look awesome.

Anyway this isn't a "Ford should build it, etc" thread, just interested so all the haters back off.

[staity]

Way back when they first released the territory I thought the same thing, how awesome wouldn it be to drop the AWD system in an F6. unfortunatly i dont have the money nor the ability to create such a beast but one can live in hope.Still wating to see one tho...

[Mechan1k]

The closest thing is GOTHEFALCON .... but he did a BFII wagon with Territory/RTV running gear ... just needs the engine in it and you'd have it all.

I now FTG did an F6 wagon a few years back. But RWD though.

[Road_Warrior]

Ford made attribute mules consisting of an AU Falcon and two BA Fairmonts that had Territory AWD systems in them, they had a noticeable increase in ride height which is probably brought about by using the Territory's spindles, as mentioned Gothefalcon has done an AWD BF wagon but it wasn't simply a bolt-in conversion, he needed to do some floorpan renovations to accommodate the Territory's transfer case and make some changes to the Falcon's mounting points where the front crossmember attaches, amongst other things, but I don't think the issues were insurmountable, it just took some thinking and planning ahead, the end result is that it looks just like a factory one.

The caveat to the above is whether you'd do it to a B-series Falcon or an FG. Because there were some significant changes to the front end on the FG.

[Bossxr8]

Having a low ride height like in a Falcon makes getting the front diff in a massive drama. Raised suspension makes it easier to slip the front driveshafts through or under the sump, lower ride height in Falcon would probably mean the front drive shafts would have to go through the engine block which makes it impossible.

But I guess you wouldn't know until you've had a good look at the front end and seen how everything could be placed.

[EFFalcon]

You'd need to convert all the front end to Territory gear.
then see how low it can go

i'd imagine you'd have issues with the upper/lower control arm angles.

Physically possible to do it all, weather you could get a decent ride height with all the gear in there is a different story.

[Luke Plaizier]

FG Falcon has room in the centre of the front uprights to pass driveshafts through right?

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

FG Falcon has room in the centre of the front uprights to pass driveshafts through right?

And if the Inline 6 was replaced by say a turbo V6 that didn't take up as much room you could probably fit a diff no problems at all

Watch this space come 2016+

[Franco Cozzo]

Territory Ghia with F6 engine, problem solved

Surely if they can have the I6 in the AWD models like they used to, you could put the F6 engine in there?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Having a low ride height like in a Falcon makes getting the front diff in a massive drama. Raised suspension makes it easier to slip the front driveshafts through or under the sump, lower ride height in Falcon would probably mean the front drive shafts would have to go through the engine block which makes it impossible.

But I guess you wouldn't know until you've had a good look at the front end and seen how everything could be placed.

In the I-6 Territory, wasn't the front differential housing actually part of the sump?

[EFFalcon]

Look at the chunkyness of the Terri Kframe

now imagine that under a lowered Falcon

[EFFalcon]

and the FG unit, much lower profile

[barra240t]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Territory Ghia with F6 engine, problem solved

Surely if they can have the I6 in the AWD models like they used to, you could put the F6 engine in there?

You mean an F6 engine in a Territory? Like the F6X?

[Road_Warrior]

Well personally I'd buy the better looking SYII TTG, lower it a tad, and fit it out with some GT-P seats and mod it a bit and you'd basically have it.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Raptor

And if the Inline 6 was replaced by say a turbo V6 that didn't take up as much room you could probably fit a diff no problems at all

Watch this space come 2016+

From memory the V6 is actually taller than the I6, so that would make the issue even worse. Unless the shorter length is short enough to get the drive shafts through in front of the sump, but I doubt it.

But either way it makes no difference as there will be no V6 Falcon.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by barra240t

You mean an F6 engine in a Territory? Like the F6X?

Yep.

Lower it, shortened shocks, wider tyres, thicker sway bars, would be the closest thing to an AWD Falcon I reckon.

[happy1]

Looks like the Falcon would need driveshaft through the sump to become AWD, as many other such as BMW 3 / 5 series X-drive.

Have seen some interesting transmissions with built in front diff, for example Ford Transit new AWD, Bentley AWD, and Audi quattro. However looks like the bellhousing is too far back on Falcon to do use anything like that.

Maybe the Ecoboost Falcon has enough space for a front diff, or sits further forward, allowing the trans with built in diff.

Anyway, it would be way too much involved in doing this DIY. Not economical..

[Gothefalcon]

Originally Posted by happy1

Looks like the Falcon would need driveshaft through the sump to become AWD, as many other such as BMW 3 / 5 series X-drive.

Anyway, it would be way too much involved in doing this DIY. Not economical..

You are right... there is a bit involved But I did it anyway !

There are a few points on here, that are quite right... The Terry sub-frame is quite bulky... and as it hangs below the "Falcon" Chassis (which Terry is also built on), then to lower an AWD Falcon (or Terrry) down to GT/F6 height, wouldn't leave a lot of ground crearance (under the front end) !

The Terry's (& the FAWD's) front drive axle sits beneath the sump. Should you want to do an AWD "FPV" style car... you would need to work this through the sump (just like Holden did with all it's Commodore based AWDs)... you could use the Terry's lower suspension arms and the fork on the bottom of the strut (to allow for the driveshafts)... but you would need a shorter shock & spring to mount on top of it !

A new sump to suit this is not all that hard to make... but if you look under a Terry AWD... you will see that the bottom of the front diff is all but level with the bottom of the sub-chassis which supports it ! So... some consideration to how high you can move this up, would need to happen also !

Holden cast the back half of their front diff, onto the side of the sump... which allows the motor to rock on it's mounts, and the front drive to move with it ! This makes sense in this sort of application... It also removes the need to support it independantly off the Chassis !

With the sump bowl located to the rear of the motor... it would make all of this a lot easier !

So... is it possible ?? Absolutely ! Is it viable?? If that's what you really want !! Is it as "easy" as what I've done ?? Nup ! Why am I so sure ?? Watch this space !! (though... it may take me a couple of years yet !! )
D

[Gothefalcon]

Originally Posted by EFFalcon

and the FG unit, much lower profile

image

When you look at this pic of the FG front end... take note of the location of the shock and the lower ball joint behind the disc.... these would be in the way of the driveshafts ! The AWD Terry's have a fork arrangement at the base of the shock... and the lower ball joints are located more foreward, to allow room for the driveshafts !

Hope this helps?
D

[EFFalcon]

for what its worth

The Territory subframe hangs ~10" down from the chassis rail.

i think the lowest point on the BA subframe is about 7-8"

so straight away theres 50-75mm clearance gone.

[happy1]

Hi Gothefalcon, I am admiring the courage and time you have spent building your AWD BA/BF wagon, with Territory front subframe and RTV rear. Ride height and most parts of your car is from a Territory, where the drive shafts are well below the chassis rails.

As mentioned above it would probably be technically possible to construct a custom sump with built on differential and driveshaft. I'm familiar with how this looks like, as I have owned and repaired a 1992 Sierra Cosworth 4x4 with the same setup. The Sierra has done a 30 millimetre radius half circle cut-out of the bottom of the chassis rails to make clearance for the drive shafts. Something similar would probably be needed if a custom built AWD were to be installed in a Falcon BF or FG.
In comparison with any 'bolt on conversion' it would take a lot more effort to custom build a sub-frame and sump etc, in order to maintain the standard ride height of an XR/FPV. Also it would be a challenge to have it engineered, as the modified parts would be a challenge both for strength and crash safety.
The clearance issues for the spring and stabiliser bar is part of the engineering needed. Territory 'fork' could possibly work with some custom shocks/springs.

Does anyone have photos from below of an Ecoboost Falcon? (or exploded view photos of the engine & trans sitting on a subframe?) I still think the amount of empty space with the 4-cylinder engine would make it easier to modify than with the I6 engine.

[Gothefalcon]

Originally Posted by happy1

Hi Gothefalcon, I am admiring the courage and time you have spent building your AWD BA/BF wagon, with Territory front subframe and RTV rear. Ride height and most parts of your car is from a Territory, where the drive shafts are well below the chassis rails.

As mentioned above it would probably be technically possible to construct a custom sump with built on differential and driveshaft. I'm familiar with how this looks like, as I have owned and repaired a 1992 Sierra Cosworth 4x4 with the same setup. The Sierra has done a 30 millimetre radius half circle cut-out of the bottom of the chassis rails to make clearance for the drive shafts. Something similar would probably be needed if a custom built AWD were to be installed in a Falcon BF or FG.
In comparison with any 'bolt on conversion' it would take a lot more effort to custom build a sub-frame and sump etc, in order to maintain the standard ride height of an XR/FPV. Also it would be a challenge to have it engineered, as the modified parts would be a challenge both for strength and crash safety.
The clearance issues for the spring and stabiliser bar is part of the engineering needed. Territory 'fork' could possibly work with some custom shocks/springs.

Does anyone have photos from below of an Ecoboost Falcon? (or exploded view photos of the engine & trans sitting on a subframe?) I still think the amount of empty space with the 4-cylinder engine would make it easier to modify than with the I6 engine.

If someone is considering doing this... I would be taking a closer look at the Adventra/Cross8/Coupe4 range from Holden ! I believe the Holden team looked towards developing their AWD set-up for both higher & "standard" ride heights, from the outset... where Ford seemed to focus purely on their "new baby" only !?? The Holden platform is remarkably similar in dimension to the Falcon platform.... and as such... gives a clear indication of which direction could be headed to achieve a "standard" height AWD set-up in a Falcon (Whichever motor is used)

Any major modification like this would require Engineering.... Mine certainly did... but I was able to draw on Ford's own work by saying that the Terry is a derivative of the Falcon (ie: they share a common platfrom)... as is the RTV... and therefore, all I've essentially done is fitted parts from different versions of the same platfrom.... and therefore, they have already been designed and engineered to be there ! They just needed my Engineer to confirm this and that it was carried out to a suitable standard ! As (I believe) I was the first to do this conversion (apart from Ford, ofcourse)... I wasn't out to "reinvent the wheel" perse'.... and with so many changes to the original Falcon Wagon going on at once... I wanted to ensure some level of comfort that the conversion would get past ! So... All Ford parts... all from different versions of the same platform... plus any manufactured components (to fit the Wagon) were done to the same Ford spec as similar components from the other models (ie: front leaf spring hanger) or using parts from the same suppliers Ford use. To put that (very) simply.... I just raided the Ford parts bin !
What we are talking about now... is another step away from that... and some fairly important components would need to be reworked/remanufactured to make it work.... but, done properly.... I don't see why it wouldn't pass !!
D

[axialmark]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

From memory the V6 is actually taller than the I6, so that would make the issue even worse. Unless the shorter length is short enough to get the drive shafts through in front of the sump, but I doubt it.

But either way it makes no difference as there will be no V6 Falcon.

Having discussed this issue previously with the same initial train of thought i realized that the only advantage to be had by using a shorter (in Length ) V6 would be that the shorter sump allows more scope for reconfiguration to miss the drive shaft, however you need to remember that if you used a V6 and shuffled it forward you still need to bring bell housing forward so a bit of a trade off there.
What u must remember when talking overall engine height is that the top of the motor is irrelevant , whether you use a l6, V6 or V8 for that matter without lifting the gear box the crank center line stays the same so only gain would be from using whichever has the shortest crank throw (stroke) or being able to position motor so that drive shaft passed under a main journal.

[axialmark]

AWD in a performance sedan such as F6 would be awesome especially in the wet, however it is certainly not a new concept. Jenson in the UK produced the Furgeson Formula (AWD) Interceptor sports coupe in 1968 which was ahead of it's time. Spec was 383 V8 auto with chain drive transfer case which gave from memory 66% drive to rear wheels via viscous center diff which would transfer power to front wheels if rear lost grip and the other innovation at the time was believe it or not "anti lock brakes" which worked by sensing difference in speed between front and rear diff and cut vacuum to the master cylinder intermittently to reduce braking effect. Crude by today's standards but it did work.

[Bundy]

Just wait until 2018 and we get the twin turbo V6 AWD Taurus comes here to replace the Falcon

...I've got money and I'm willing to bet on it

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by Bundy

Just wait until 2018 and we get the twin turbo V6 AWD Taurus comes here to replace the Falcon

...I've got money and I'm willing to bet on it

You might lose youre money. Taurus is looking shakey just to stay in America at the moment

[Bossxr8]

And they have already decided it won't be made in RHD, so i'd take that bet any day of the week. How much do you want to place on the bet, I like free money

[Road_Warrior]

Bwaha i'll take that bet, I'd like to pay off my house early :rofl:

[leakey]

Well time will tell, and it told! Bet lost.

But back to this conumdrum, why not look at what AIT did with that twin turbo awd XF falcon?

Didnt they use a transfer case coming off the back of the gear box that fed up to the front, where they had a small diff and axles that ran through the sump?

That was an inline six too. And I think pretty similar to what Holden did with the adventura?

[leakey]

Actually found a link on this site to it.

https://fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=65814