Wheels Mag: The Top 20 Aussie Muscle Cars

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by 51RTE

How about you hop back over to LS12345.com and go at it over there im sure your opinion will be revered over there.
Cammed SS, as in modified. I wonder if holden made them that way... dont think so.
Going from your posts in this thread how are you ever going to get some backing to your statements when you are posting with blinkers on.
T3 deserves to be on there as it IMO is a much better car then an R8 (yes i have drivin and been in both. Going from your comments i doubt you have seen a T3 let alone drivin one.
Also there are some GM models that deserve it aswell (only talking modern muscle)
VN SS GPA
VTII GTS 300
VK SS GPA
VL SS GPA
Whose appendage is larger eh, couldnt possibly a ford owner as i dont think we feel the need to brag as i (me) didnt buy my car to fit in with the crowd like most altezza powered commodores.

Only way holden get the upeer hand with MOST models was to 'get another crate motor' atleast with the T Series cars there was a hell of alot of work went into the motors especially the T3. I wont get started on the handling side of it either, not that that matters as holdens dont go around corners only hectik in a straight line :
No off you go back to LS12345.com they are calling you

Good, so using your logic, I'm supposed to drive all the cars in the list before I'm allowed to form an opinion.

I'm struggling with other aspects of your rant... so what if Ford spent a lot of work into the T3s? I'm sure there's good reason why Ford ditched that motor in favour of the Boss... and I'm sure it was more than just for emissions reasons. It's called a 'use by date'.

Like I said, the T3 was nothing special in its day. The sales numbers (you are almost right when you say you haven't seen one) suggest it didn't sell because it didn't tick the right boxes... even though it was relatively affordable.

Lastly, in reference to the cammed LS1 comment, my long gone LS1 was literally a street racer. It had a sports suspension, bigger brakes etc... the reason why I mentioned it was in reference to a comment that I should drive the T3 before passing comment... but my point is that it just wouldn't excite me.

History will judge the T3 accordingly. No need to get angry with me because, like you, I have an opinion, too, which is neither right or wrong.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by 220XR8

Quoted in an earlier post

"The fact is the XY GTHO was far faster, more powerful, better handling and better braking car than the E49, its lap times proved it and that's not opinion, its a fact."


Having owned one and driven both of the above i have to disagree that the GTHO was a better handling car, the term "floats like a boat comes to mind". Maybe HO race cars were different but those on the road were ordinary 30+ years ago and still are today. And the brakes, a term I use loosely, were terrible on both.

HO road cars were HO race cars. What rolled off the showroom floor was the same car that was wheeled out onto the track.

In one of my Bathurst videos, Moffat talks about the only modification that was allowed to his XW was some foam padding on the centre console for comfort and that at the end of the race he would have huge welts on his back from sliding around in the standard seats.

E49 vs HO appeared to be dependant on the track. The windier the track, the better the E49 faired, the longer the straights, the better the HO faired. Down the quarter, the E49 had it pipped but wind them both out and the HO had longer legs.

I can't comment on E49 vs HO. I had an XWGT and had driven a VH Charger. Between the GT and the VH, there wasn't much difference in go and handling, IMO.

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Good, so using your logic, I'm supposed to drive all the cars in the list before I'm allowed to form an opinion.

I'm struggling with other aspects of your rant... so what if Ford spent a lot of work into the T3s? I'm sure there's good reason why Ford ditched that motor in favour of the Boss... and I'm sure it was more than just for emissions reasons. It's called a 'use by date'.

Like I said, the T3 was nothing special in its day. The sales numbers (you are almost right when you say you haven't seen one) suggest it didn't sell because it didn't tick the right boxes... even though it was relatively affordable.

Lastly, in reference to the cammed LS1 comment, my long gone LS1 was literally a street racer. It had a sports suspension, bigger brakes etc... the reason why I mentioned it was in reference to a comment that I should drive the T3 before passing comment... but my point is that it just wouldn't excite me.

History will judge the T3 accordingly. No need to get angry with me because, like you, I have an opinion, too, which is neither right or wrong.

Um Ford ditched the T3 motor because they stopped building the Windsor motor in 2000. They were going to run out of blocks sooner or later.

Sales means jack. Ford sold more XF's than Holden VL's. Does that make a XF S-Pac better than a VL Turbo?

[Bad Bird]

Originally Posted by nugget378

Put a set of aquajets on any modern car and see how well it handles..

You are so right there. So much of the difference between these and newer cars is the tyre compounds and shock absorbers. Changing just these make the old cars so much nicer to drive.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by sleekism

Um Ford ditched the T3 motor because they stopped building the Windsor motor in 2000. They were going to run out of blocks sooner or later.

Sales means jack. Ford sold more XF's than Holden VL's. Does that make a XF S-Pac better than a VL Turbo?

No but desirability and current perceived value does.

The T3 never cracked 13s in the hands of journos but the BA GT did. So why wasn't the GT included? It was by far the better car than the T3 AND Clubsport for that matter!

As I keep reiterating, Wheels have rocks in their heads. Don't they read their own articles? They were in love with the GT too! :

[Falcon SXR8]

The BAGT is a good car but its been replaced with the BF now the FG. On the other hand the TE50 was the last of the Tickfords the last of the windsors and the last of the TE and the price that it holds now is proof that they are still a desirable vehicle.

Plus IT WAS A GOOD CAR. Me personaly I would take a TE50 over a BA GT but thats me.

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by Falcon SXR8

the price that it holds now is proof that they are still a desirable vehicle.

http://www.carsales.com.au/all-cars/...4956381&Nne=15

[4Vman]

Good old depreciation has hit all modern Aussie performance cars pretty much equally.. nothing is immune to it....
With a few homologation based exceptions The 30+ year old classics are the only ones that have turned the other way, and some allot more than others..

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by nugget378

???
http://www.carsales.com.au/used-cars/private/FORD/TE50/details.aspx?__sid=11BDBCB03A8B&Cr=0&__Ns=pCar_Pri vateSpecialFlag_Int32|1||pCar_ImageCo%20%20unt_Int 32|1||pCar_LastModifiedDate_DateTime|1&State=All%2 0States&distance=25&silo=1003&seot=te_id=0&trecs=

Doh! You beat me to it!

I've found two links for the T3 TE50:

NSW: http://www.carsales.com.au/used-cars...50&state_id=80

QLD: http://www.carsales.com.au/used-cars...50&state_id=79

I've also found a link for a VXII HSV Clubsport just as a matter of interest:
QLD: http://www.carsales.com.au/used-cars...odel=CLUBSPORT

Now you be the judge as to which vehicles are more desirable... if price is any guide!

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by sleekism

Um Ford ditched the T3 motor because they stopped building the Windsor motor in 2000. They were going to run out of blocks sooner or later.

Nothing stopping FPV from continuing to use it...

As of 2008 the Windsor engines including the 351 and 302 are still being produced by Ford, available as complete crate motors, from Ford Racing and Performance Parts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Windsor_engine

1991–present Modular V8 —OHC 4.6/5.4 L V8

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ford_engines

BTW, the mod motors were around for a fair while too... but I'd imagine the Windsor was used because it was far cheaper.

[FTE72]

Originally Posted by nugget378

http://www.carsales.com.au/all-cars/...4956381&Nne=15

Not a T3 TE is it. what does this prove?

[FTE72]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Doh! You beat me to it!

I've found two links for the T3 TE50:

NSW: http://www.carsales.com.au/used-cars...50&state_id=80

QLD: http://www.carsales.com.au/used-cars...50&state_id=79

I've also found a link for a VXII HSV Clubsport just as a matter of interest:
QLD: http://www.carsales.com.au/used-cars...odel=CLUBSPORT

Now you be the judge as to which vehicles are more desirable... if price is any guide!

All looks comparable to me.
And as I pointed out, I have OWNED both cars but the VX R8 is gone so I know which is more desirable

[FTE72]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Nothing stopping FPV from continuing to use it...





BTW, the mod motors were around for a fair while too... but I'd imagine the Windsor was used because it was far cheaper.

Well they are not used in PRODUCTION vehicles are they.
The windsor was used upto the point where a chassis was engineered to suit the modular motor. Try getting a grip on reality not just yourself.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by FTE72

Well they are not used in PRODUCTION vehicles are they.
The windsor was used upto the point where a chassis was engineered to suit the modular motor. Try getting a grip on reality not just yourself.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the chassis on the BA was reworked to accommodate the Boss... obviously the bonnet was?

Anyway, I don't want to continue the T3 focus, just wanted to voice my displeasure with Wheels. I've done that. No more from me on this thread.

[FTE72]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Correct me if I'm wrong but the chassis on the BA was reworked to accommodate the Boss... obviously the bonnet was?

Anyway, I don't want to continue the T3 focus, just wanted to voice my displeasure with Wheels. I've done that. No more from me on this thread.

No, the AU chassis on was reworked for the Boss motor and became the BA.

[Quicksand]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Well if that's the case, maybe the Toyota Aurion should be in the list too because it cracks 14s stock (considerably quicker than the XR6)

Good 1/4 mile time here for the humble NA I6 and a good read too:

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/Ar...rticleID=44733

BTW dont leave this thread...i am enjoying the discussion (no i'm not being sarcastic)

It seems to me as though Wheels are using a "start of an era" type thinking. e.g. BAxr6t was the start of what we can buy today, same as has been discussed with the EB...not sure if this qualifies as being a candidate for a muscle car but if you ask me the publication and it's author have done its job...it's being discussed all over the place,

T

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Nothing stopping FPV from continuing to use it...





BTW, the mod motors were around for a fair while too... but I'd imagine the Windsor was used because it was far cheaper.

THEY RAN OUT OF ENGINE STOCKS!!

The motors used to build the T3's had been sitting on the shelf gathering dust.
It's the same reason why Holden stoppid using the 5L and the LS2. They stopped building them and the stocks were eventually depleted.

The reason they didn't use the Modular earlier was in many ways the Wheezer was superior but 250kw I think was the limit they could extract from the Wheezer.

The T3 may "only" have had 250kw but it shaded the Clubsport of that era and had a torque curve to embarass the C4B.

As for desirability the T3 is my pinup car because of it's monstrous torque and because of it's exclusivity. I don't want to start a war but Tickford added little touches to their vehicles to make them special something HSV and FPV have never been able to do.

[flappist]

The TE50 T3 had two problems. It was missing the two vital components that Ford hyper enthusiests require in order to buy.

The letter G
AND
The letter T

Look at the BF2 GT-P, GT and Force 8 sales. Technically they were all almost exactly the same and when equally optioned almost the same price but the Force 8 was stillborn.
I suspect that if the TE50 T3 was actually the AU3 GT there would be bazillions of them everywhere and the AU/BA wars (which are essentially "non GT" vs GT wars) would be as rare and insignificat as BA GT vs BF GT vs FG GT.

Now I am sure there will be the odd T3 enthusiest who will are up but then how of them bought their T3 new?

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by sleekism

THEY RAN OUT OF ENGINE STOCKS!!

The motors used to build the T3's had been sitting on the shelf gathering dust.
It's the same reason why Holden stoppid using the 5L and the LS2. They stopped building them and the stocks were eventually depleted.

The reason they didn't use the Modular earlier was in many ways the Wheezer was superior but 250kw I think was the limit they could extract from the Wheezer.

The T3 may "only" have had 250kw but it shaded the Clubsport of that era and had a torque curve to embarass the C4B.

As for desirability the T3 is my pinup car because of it's monstrous torque and because of it's exclusivity. I don't want to start a war but Tickford added little touches to their vehicles to make them special something HSV and FPV have never been able to do.

The windsor was dropped for a whole host of reasons:
It as flat out at its limits making 250kw and the competition was climbing, the block durability was at its limit, it was costly to make, it was at the end of its ADR compliance and wouldnt pass future emmisions regs, it was out dated technology, Ford US ditched it too..
The mod motor simply ticked all the boxes for the future.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by flappist

The TE50 T3 had two problems. It was missing the two vital components that Ford hyper enthusiests require in order to buy.

The letter G
AND
The letter T

Look at the BF2 GT-P, GT and Force 8 sales. Technically they were all almost exactly the same and when equally optioned almost the same price but the Force 8 was stillborn.
I suspect that if the TE50 T3 was actually the AU3 GT there would be bazillions of them everywhere and the AU/BA wars (which are essentially "non GT" vs GT wars) would be as rare and insignificat as BA GT vs BF GT vs FG GT.

Now I am sure there will be the odd T3 enthusiest who will are up but then how of them bought their T3 new?

true, one magazine called the T3 the greatest car not to be called a GT...

...i think back then ford was a bit uneazy with bringing back the name plate.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by Falcon SXR8

Plus IT WAS A GOOD CAR. Me personaly I would take a TE50 over a BA GT but thats me.

same, or a pursuit 250 ute...

...the stroker windsors sound awsome compared to the boss.

[snakeoil]

Just asking............... will the physical size and weight of the boss one day potentially be a disadvantage.

I think it is a beautiful engine and some very clever buggers on this forum have got some massive numbers out of them but I am rebuilding at the moment a 72 650 Bonny and there is stuff in that motor that is really good and some stuff that maybe isnt compared to maybe a Jap engine of the same vintage.........dunno just askin

PS I respect any car that can run 15 sec is good in my eyes.My own taste is blue oval and prefer not to have the front wheels smoking............

Cheers

[Nikked]

Why can't the cobra be a muscle car...

...some muscle cars had standardish engines, with loud colours and stripes...

What about the 30-odd 351 'bathurst' Cobras...

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Why can't the cobra be a muscle car...

...some muscle cars had standardish engines, with loud colours and stripes...

What about the 30-odd 351 'bathurst' Cobras...

Why?? 1: NO REAL musclecar had a "standardish" motor let alone a "down grade option" and 2: because it wouldn't pull a sailor off your sister and has no racing pedigree worth talking about... That's why.

[Escort_RPDriver]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Why?? 1: NO REAL musclecar had a "standardish" motor let alone a "down grade option" and 2: because it wouldn't pull a sailor off your sister and has no racing pedigree worth talking about... That's why.

yep totaly agree with you on the cobra it was just a of getting rid of some unwanted shells unlike the HO's or the XU1 toranas hell the XU1 were quicker.
hell my Escort is most likely faster

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Escort_RPDriver

yep totaly agree with you on the cobra it was just a of getting rid of some unwanted shells unlike the HO's or the XU1 toranas hell the XU1 were quicker.
hell my Escort is most likely faster

Of coarse its quicker! but only if you're racing around your clothes line!!!!

[Escort_RPDriver]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Of coarse its quicker! but only if you're racing around your clothes line!!!!

i dont know 125bhp in a car that ways just over 900kg running a worked 2.0L pinto revs to nearly 7000rpm and gets maximum power just over 2500 rmp all the way to 6500rpm vs a car that has at the most 175bhp and ways 1500kg it wuold bee pritty close.
v8 don' t meen quick emissions killed the cobra.

[bingoTE50]

Well I now put forward HQ holdens....202 ..muscle , surely qualify on their Bathurst Times alone .A cheap form of Racing that brought many people on to a racetrack and produce times similar, if not better than the HO around Bathurst. Modern tyre and suspension is a wonderful thing. Surely they tick all the boxes , manufacturing dates ,racing pedigree , the mighty 202 ,etc.

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by snakeoil

Just asking............... will the physical size and weight of the boss one day potentially be a disadvantage.

I think it is a beautiful engine and some very clever buggers on this forum have got some massive numbers out of them but I am rebuilding at the moment a 72 650 Bonny and there is stuff in that motor that is really good and some stuff that maybe isnt compared to maybe a Jap engine of the same vintage.........dunno just askin

PS I respect any car that can run 15 sec is good in my eyes.My own taste is blue oval and prefer not to have the front wheels smoking............

Cheers

It always has been a disadvantage.

[bulldog]

Originally Posted by flappist

The TE50 T3 had two problems. It was missing the two vital components that Ford hyper enthusiests require in order to buy.

The letter G
AND
The letter T

Look at the BF2 GT-P, GT and Force 8 sales. Technically they were all almost exactly the same and when equally optioned almost the same price but the Force 8 was stillborn.
I suspect that if the TE50 T3 was actually the AU3 GT there would be bazillions of them everywhere and the AU/BA wars (which are essentially "non GT" vs GT wars) would be as rare and insignificat as BA GT vs BF GT vs FG GT.

Now I am sure there will be the odd T3 enthusiest who will are up but then how of them bought their T3 new?

I think you are spot on here with your comments. The fact is the T Series was marketed poorly by Ford. In particular the T3 which with it's looks and performance could have been marketed very well. I guess Ford new all along the GT was coming with BA and all their energy went to marketing the new model.
The T3 is certainly worthy of wearing a GT badge but to be honest I am really glad it doesn't as it just adds to the mistique of these cars. I do think they will be quite a collectors car in years to come but that is not why I bought one. I bought it to drive and drive as much as possible because they are awesome cars to drive.
And yes I bought mine new!