New IR changes to take effect

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by SpoolMan

Hi Stuart, your views as a guy who runs his own business are very refreshing; if all the boss’s where like you mate we wouldn't need to worry about any laws.
Totally agree its all about balance.

PS: When is the budget racer coming back Calder Park?

Hey Mark

I have lots of friends who are in business. They are all great hard working people, who I know treat their staff as I do. I'm sure most people in small business treat their staff well, they are an investment in the future of that business.

Unfortunately some people will do the wrong thing, and this goes for employees as much as employers. As you say if everyone did the right thing we would not need any laws. But people will take advantage of others, employees and employers, so we have to have laws to try and keep the playing field level.

Peoples idea of what a "fair go" is will obviously vary.

It's interesting the government accusing the unions of running a campain of fear and misinformation. I wonder whom they learned that from.........


The Work Horse is still hauling gear around, racing has had to take a back seat with work and the daughter but I'LL BE BACK LOL

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

The Work Horse is still hauling gear around, racing has had to take a back seat with work and the daughter but I'LL BE BACK LOL

If you cant make Heathcote May the 20th, see if you can make ours in September.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

I'm not sure how to respond to this. Someone said inflation had been outstripping wage growth... i looked up the BROADLY ACCEPTED figures for inflation (CPI) and wage growth (AWOTE) and they were contradictory to the statement made.... where's the problem?

Oh oh - i know. The consumer price index is a deliberate consipracy devised PERSONALLY by john howard in order to deliberately LIE to working Australians? Of course - it makes sense now.

What is the point tho?? Seriously?? When i can provide referenced data to try and put a point across - and it is slagged of as false/inaccurate - however, we should all be encouraged to observe the numbers which gtfpv has pulled out of thin air.


Which encourages responses like this. Where are the facts?!?!? Justification by quoting plasma TV prices??

Here is the make up of the survey which feeds into the CPI and the weightings they take on (source: abs) :

Current housing costs (selected dwelling) 12.8
Domestic fuel and power 2.9
Food and non-alcoholic beverages 19.7
Alcoholic beverages 3.4
Tobacco products 1.6
Clothing and footwear 6.5
Household furnishings and equipment 7.7
Household services and operation 4.3
Medical care and health expenses 3.9
Transport 16.3
Recreation 11.9
Personal care 1.8
Miscellaneous goods and services 7.2
Total goods and services expenditure 100.0

You'll note the heaviest weightings are on housing, food and non-alco bevs, transport and recreation. What does that mean? It means the CPI does a pretty bloody good job of monitoring the average cost of living.

But why accept the plain facts when we have members who can point fingers, invent numbers and use pure emotion to discredit them?

PLASMA TVs MY A$$

Also, what's the one thing that happens when every year you give Australians a pay rise? Inflation goes up.
This is not rocket science, putting more money into the economy only serves to lower the purchasing power of the dollar, pushing prices up.

Companies hit with a higher wage bill shift their prices beforehand so as to avoid eroding their margins on a product, when they do this though, they take into consideration the higher payroll tax to be paid (borne by the employer), the higher workers comp insurance to be paid, the higher superannuation contribution to be made, and other increased associated costs. This results in typically a 6% increased cost on a 4% payrise leaving the employee worse off than he thought beforehand.

Look at it this way,and compare to any personal experiences you may have.
Who pushes for a payrise every year? Unions
Who receives a payrise? Employees
How much in percent roughly is it? Around 4%
How much does it cost a company? Around 6%
How much do prices shift? 6-10%
How much better off is the employee after the payrise? About -2%

[muppet]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

I'm not sure how to respond to this. Someone said inflation had been outstripping wage growth... i looked up the BROADLY ACCEPTED figures for inflation (CPI) and wage growth (AWOTE) and they were contradictory to the statement made.... where's the problem?

Oh oh - i know. The consumer price index is a deliberate consipracy devised PERSONALLY by john howard in order to deliberately LIE to working Australians? Of course - it makes sense now.

What is the point tho?? Seriously?? When i can provide referenced data to try and put a point across - and it is slagged of as false/inaccurate - however, we should all be encouraged to observe the numbers which gtfpv has pulled out of thin air.


Which encourages responses like this. Where are the facts?!?!? Justification by quoting plasma TV prices??

Here is the make up of the survey which feeds into the CPI and the weightings they take on (source: abs) :

Current housing costs (selected dwelling) 12.8
Domestic fuel and power 2.9
Food and non-alcoholic beverages 19.7
Alcoholic beverages 3.4
Tobacco products 1.6
Clothing and footwear 6.5
Household furnishings and equipment 7.7
Household services and operation 4.3
Medical care and health expenses 3.9
Transport 16.3
Recreation 11.9
Personal care 1.8
Miscellaneous goods and services 7.2
Total goods and services expenditure 100.0

You'll note the heaviest weightings are on housing, food and non-alco bevs, transport and recreation. What does that mean? It means the CPI does a pretty bloody good job of monitoring the average cost of living.

But why accept the plain facts when we have members who can point fingers, invent numbers and use pure emotion to discredit them?

PLASMA TVs MY A$$

Geez mate way to take things a bit to literaly. Of corse the inflation figures dont hinge on the price of plasma TV's you would have to be a complete moron to think that.
The point I was trying to get accross is that the things that are comming down in price are luxuries and the things that keep getting dearer are necesities.You dont have to have a plasma but you do have to eat . Apart from my home loan food is the next biggest bill I have. And if some people are going to loose their jobs or have to take a pay cut they will still have to buy food. You will notice I said some people because there will be some other people that will do better out of these laws but you can bet that these people will not be low paid workers they will be workers with skills that allready get a good wage to start with.
And no I do not have any figures to support this the only thing I have is my food bill that keeps going up by more than 4% pa . I have been paying of my house and feeding a family of 4 on $450 a week for the last 2 years so when food goes up by even a little bit it hurts. The numbers you are quoteing are averages are they not that means for some people the % of their wage spent on food is less than other people so they can afford it when food goes up I cannot. I am not saying that my situation is anyone eleses fault but mine and good on you if you earn more than I do . But please don't think I am pulling figures out of my a$$ I am pulling them out of my wallet every time I go to the super market and these are the only figures that mean anything to me and my family.

[GTFORDMAN]

it seems to me that the libs are trying to kill off what remains of the bluecollar worker - and of middle class Australia the employer will sack you for whaever reason he/she feels like and then replace you with a worker on a temporary work visa for $10hr, and dont say that wont happen!!!! because i know for a FACT! that near to 30 people have just hit the unemployment line were im at (i was one of them and i was a good worker), rumours abound that variuos companys have gone recruiting in Indonesia for some cheap labour.

these rules wont get abused my ИИИИ.

wasent their a moment in Australias history when workers under a repressive goverment rose up in voilence against them and fought to get some rights, i wonder how long it will take to see some backlash to these ir laws.

*dusts off and raises the Eureka Flag*

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by GTFORDMAN

wasent their a moment in Australias history when workers under a repressive goverment rose up in voilence against them and fought to get some rights, i wonder how long it will take to see some backlash to these ir laws.

*dusts off and raises the Eureka Flag*

I agree fordman. I have a southern cross flag and a 4 county Ireland flag hanging in my house. To me they represent the rights of all working people to fight for justice in the work place. I cant wait for some of the right wing #edit# that think these IR laws are a good thing, find themselves in a centre link office while a little chinese man does his job at half the price. NOBODY is immune from these draconian laws!!
For the first time in my life am seriously thinking of joining a union or guild.

[MO]

Alright ppl we know its going to get a whole lot worse before it gets better....but please for the sake of this thread lets not get to over the top.

For info the Shearers Strike and the Miners(Eureka) of their era will be nothing compared to what is coming....all it needs is for you to join your relevant union and be prepared to fight back with whatever it takes.

Now if that means you are on the grass for an extended period so be it...if that means you become involved in a confrontation with authorities so be it....yes it will involve hardship...but what is that when compared to those that gave their lives for us to have a better future.

Comrades united we stand divided we fall.

[rodderz]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

Hey Mark

I have lots of friends who are in business. They are all great hard working people, who I know treat their staff as I do. I'm sure most people in small business treat their staff well, they are an investment in the future of that business.

Unfortunately some people will do the wrong thing, and this goes for employees as much as employers. As you say if everyone did the right thing we would not need any laws. But people will take advantage of others, employees and employers, so we have to have laws to try and keep the playing field level.

Peoples idea of what a "fair go" is will obviously vary.

It's interesting the government accusing the unions of running a campain of fear and misinformation. I wonder whom they learned that from.........


The Work Horse is still hauling gear around, racing has had to take a back seat with work and the daughter but I'LL BE BACK LOL

I think Stuart has the most sensible posts in the thread, very correct in my opinion! In an ideal world it would be a far better place with workplace attitudes such as this, but unfortunately this isnt an ideal world and alot of people simlpy dont respect other's opinions or ideas, needs or wants

[pauljh74]

Originally Posted by ltd

Also, what's the one thing that happens when every year you give Australians a pay rise? Inflation goes up.
This is not rocket science, putting more money into the economy only serves to lower the purchasing power of the dollar, pushing prices up.

Companies hit with a higher wage bill shift their prices beforehand so as to avoid eroding their margins on a product, when they do this though, they take into consideration the higher payroll tax to be paid (borne by the employer), the higher workers comp insurance to be paid, the higher superannuation contribution to be made, and other increased associated costs. This results in typically a 6% increased cost on a 4% payrise leaving the employee worse off than he thought beforehand.

Look at it this way,and compare to any personal experiences you may have.
Who pushes for a payrise every year? Unions
Who receives a payrise? Employees
How much in percent roughly is it? Around 4%
How much does it cost a company? Around 6%
How much do prices shift? 6-10%
How much better off is the employee after the payrise? About -2%

How many corporate big wigs do you see saying "A 10% salary rise this year is too much - just give me 4%, like the rest of the workers." If the workers didn't push for a raise to maintain the value of their paycheck, the bosses would hand it around amongst themselves. If I didn't get a pay-rise this year, would prices stop going up? No. Will I find it harder yet again to make ends meet? Yes. I had to go out and get a second job because for the first time in 6 years since I moved out of home I was spending more than I earnt. I don't drink, don't smoke, don't gamble and don't go out to clubs/pubs. So I don't spend much on luxury items. 18 months ago I rented on my own for the first time - which is what made paying the bills more difficult.
Many people need that extra few percent to keep their head above water - to pay for that rent increase, to pay for the extra cost on the grocery bill and to pay for the higher priced petrol.

People say that if you work hard you have nothing to worry about. Well I work hard - both my employers are happy with me. I'm in my 12th year as a casual at one job (5 days a week, 5-6 hours a day).The one I started recently is a small business, the people there are decent, I now know what it's like working somewhere where you're treated well. The other is a well known national company. Some of the managers couldn't organise a root in a brothel. They push for savings to be made, then P*** it away elsewhere on things that could be fixed if they did their job. That's the one I'm worried about. They've tried to screw us over before with EBAs that FAILED the no disadvantage test against the award.

[MO]

Unity fella's thats the only thing that will see us through!!!!!!

[Hunter]

Heh, regarding the ever inflating prices for things... fuel keeps creeping up and down, but eventually it stays up, yet my pay packet has remained stagnant for nearly a year. And two years before that. And now this year has started, my pay dropped $13 a week. It may not seem like much but it is believe me!

[qwigybo]

i work in a factory that employs around 1200ppl the union has been pushing for an EBA for the last 4 years without any success and then the company decides to hold discussions about it the day the new changes were enforced, sounds like i'm about to get bent over, might join the union monday

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

I cant wait for some of the right wing #edit# that think these IR laws are a good thing, find themselves in a centre link office while a little chinese man does his job at half the price.

#edit#? Well, that's charming.

This was a decent discussion up until that point. I think someone who hadnt looked into the reforms probably gets a reasonable perspective from both sides of the fence. Until now.

Pleasure chatting with you lads, it has been an interesting thread - but if it's reverted to vile name calling then I shall bid you adieu.

[SpoolMan]

Guy’s racist words and personal attacks won’t be tolerated.
Resect each other, if you see something you’re not happy with use the report button or contact a Mod or Admin.

[chief]

I was a full time, permanent employee at one of the world's best boat builders. We built the boats that came first and second in the Sydney to Hobart (Wild Oats XI and Alfa Romeo - Team Shockwave). After the second boat was built I was retrenched for no reason. 80 people gone - mind you, we went through over 200 workers last year to get this 80 figure. People didn't show for work, stole carbon fibre and other materials, refused to help out when there is a small group of us doing upwards of 100hrs a week.

So where is the difference between this and the new IR Laws? Still got the sack with no notice. This happened on the 8th December last year. Thats right 2 weeks before Christmas.

Now the company has set up a partneship with a Chinese company to do some of the work. I was replaced by some Chinamen. Took it on the chin and moved on and have now been offered my job back.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by chief

I was a full time, permanent employee at one of the world's best boat builders. We built the boats that came first and second in the Sydney to Hobart (Wild Oats XI and Alfa Romeo - Team Shockwave). After the second boat was built I was retrenched for no reason. 80 people gone - mind you, we went through over 200 workers last year to get this 80 figure. People didn't show for work, stole carbon fibre and other materials, refused to help out when there is a small group of us doing upwards of 100hrs a week.

So where is the difference between this and the new IR Laws? Still got the sack with no notice. This happened on the 8th December last year. Thats right 2 weeks before Christmas.

Now the company has set up a partneship with a Chinese company to do some of the work. I was replaced by some Chinamen. Took it on the chin and moved on and have now been offered my job back.

GO BACK AT A PRICE . MAKE THEM LEARN THEIR LESSON . if you go back for the same money your mad . ^^^^^ . or let the chinaman do it .

[chief]

I will be going back in 2 months when the boat starts getting built. I will be immediately full time, with holiday, sick days, public holidays (even though I work on them). With a pay rise. The China bit is to help do all the time consuming crap. Soon as you go OS espcially China your company loses its high recognition that it has earnt. The boat will be built in Australia.

By the way, I support the new IR Laws.

[MYV8]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

GO BACK AT A PRICE . MAKE THEM LEARN THEIR LESSON . if you go back for the same money your mad . ^^^^^ . or let the chinaman do it .

That's the attitude that makes the new laws needed. A lot of people try and screw the boss at every opportunity.
I run a small business and I certainly cannot drag some more money out of my ar$e every time an employee finds it hard or is short of cash and still try and compete in the global marketplace.
I have an employee who is in the Army Reserve who had an opportunity to do an overses tour, which I agreed to. While he was away, one of the other workers saw the opportunity to screw me for a massive pay increase or he would leave, knowing that I would be in serious trouble with two skilled tradesmen missing, I had no choice but to pay it.
About a year later this person found himself in a situation where he needed assistance from me to keep his home when he and his wife split up. I had previously helped him (and other employees) out in situations like this, but alas, not this time.
He was one of my short term employees with ten and a half years service before he resigned.
These new laws won't make any difference to my business as I reward my blokes for doing a good job. I also despise anyone that steals from my business although this is apparently a common thing in big business

[MO]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

#edit#? Well, that's charming.

This was a decent discussion up until that point. I think someone who hadnt looked into the reforms probably gets a reasonable perspective from both sides of the fence. Until now.

Pleasure chatting with you lads, it has been an interesting thread - but if it's reverted to vile name calling then I shall bid you adieu.

4.9 whilst I disagree with your stance on the discussion...you have every right to express your opinion/comment.

I think you'll find that that will be the one and only comment of that nature.

So come on back sport.

[SPK-250]

Walkers sucks

[svo347]

Well on a brighter note....
The Govt admits theres a loophole in the IR changes and its considering changing the laws if too many employers try to rape the workers.

[qwigybo]

Originally Posted by svo347

Well on a brighter note....
The Govt admits theres a loophole in the IR changes and its considering changing the laws if too many employers try to rape the workers.

theres more than one why don't they just admit the new laws are just there to confuse and pss people off

[ebxr8240]

In some situations its o/k but if you are a labourer or unskilled you'll be treated badly..There will be greater divide between skilled and unskilled wages..
Young guys it pays big time to keep all your training up and do as many TAFE etc courses you can....

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by MYV8

That's the attitude that makes the new laws needed. A lot of people try and screw the boss at every opportunity.
I run a small business and I certainly cannot drag some more money out of my ar$e every time an employee finds it hard or is short of cash and still try and compete in the global marketplace.
I have an employee who is in the Army Reserve who had an opportunity to do an overses tour, which I agreed to. While he was away, one of the other workers saw the opportunity to screw me for a massive pay increase or he would leave, knowing that I would be in serious trouble with two skilled tradesmen missing, I had no choice but to pay it.
About a year later this person found himself in a situation where he needed assistance from me to keep his home when he and his wife split up. I had previously helped him (and other employees) out in situations like this, but alas, not this time.
He was one of my short term employees with ten and a half years service before he resigned.
These new laws won't make any difference to my business as I reward my blokes for doing a good job. I also despise anyone that steals from my business although this is apparently a common thing in big business

i agree what you said but it is irrelavent to your reply. did not the employer screw him over 1st . subcontract his work to chinese ,and then offer him a job back because the company lost credibility . . that is why i stated go back at a price . if the employer didn't screw this guy over in the 1st place . the guy would probably be happily working for this employer. BUT NOT ANY MORE. you see it works both ways that is why i agree with both of your circumstances.

[MYV8]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

i agree what you said but it is irrelavent to your reply. did not the employer screw him over 1st . subcontract his work to chinese ,and then offer him a job back because the company lost credibility . . that is why i stated go back at a price . if the employer didn't screw this guy over in the 1st place . the guy would probably be happily working for this employer. BUT NOT ANY MORE. you see it works both ways that is why i agree with both of your circumstances.

I can see what you are saying, but still believe it is the wrong attitude to take.
Maybe the boss was disallusioned with the whole workforce because of the thieves and slackers that were there. (No disrespect to Chief)
I have had friends in business that have closed down, sold their equipment and gone into retirement rather than getting screwed by their workers. Who wins then????
I guess it is human nature to always want more but there must be a limit.
Maybe both sides of the equation need to pull their heads in a bit.

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by rodderz

I think Stuart has the most sensible posts in the thread, very correct in my opinion! In an ideal world it would be a far better place with workplace attitudes such as this, but unfortunately this isnt an ideal world and alot of people simlpy dont respect other's opinions or ideas, needs or wants

LOL Well thankyou rodderz. I'm sure it's clear my political views are left of center. I like to think 15 years as an employee and 10 years in my own business employing staff, gives me some understanding of both sides of the argument.

It's easy to get bogged down in who is screwing who the most. Personal experiences with bad employers or employees will obviously have the greatest effect on peoples opinion. I've certianly had both, but I am trying to see the bigger picture and a way forward

We need to elect representatives who are going to unite us as a country, not have us at each others throats. Maybe employers now feel more confident they can employ more staff without the restrictions the old IR laws placed upon them. Maybe workers are in fear of their job security, so reduce spending, the economy slows down and people start to lose their jobs.
The government cannot ram ideology down peoples throats telling them "shut up this is good for you".

We need more equity not ideology.

Well that's my ideology anyway :

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by MYV8

I guess it is human nature to always want more but there must be a limit.
Maybe both sides of the equation need to pull their heads in a bit.

I agree MYV8, how do we legislate against GREED?