holden leaving australia?

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by roberts

The new corollas have the handbrake in the middle of the center console.

So does my 1999 nissan pulsar...

[roberts]

when all the highly skilled workers leave manufacturing and enter the mines watch all the unskilled workers in the mines get the sack, that working environment will become dog eat dog and only the highly skilled will work, but at lower wages then the 2nd year gets now, get injured sacked, want time off sacked, want a pay rise sacked, wont except a pay cut sacked, holidays please sir - sure dont come back monday, fly in fly out hahaha that will go, either work in the desert or fuc- off. The wages are only good because they wanted to attract people, when you Que to get a job in the mines is the Australian work force long I think you could be picky and by then what are YOU going to do about.

[roberts]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

So does my 1999 nissan pulsar...

n16, yes they do.

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by roberts

n16, yes they do.

n15 as well...

[ray38l]

Originally Posted by roberts

when all the highly skilled workers leave manufacturing and enter the mines watch all the unskilled workers in the mines get the sack, that working environment will become dog eat dog and only the highly skilled will work, but at lower wages then the 2nd year gets now, get injured sacked, want time off sacked, want a pay rise sacked, wont except a pay cut sacked, holidays please sir - sure dont come back monday, fly in fly out hahaha that will go, either work in the desert or fuc- off. The wages are only good because they wanted to attract people, when you Que to get a job in the mines is the Australian work force long I think you could be picky and by then what are YOU going to do about.

how did this turn into a discussion about mine workers? Oh well i might as well join in.
Most people commenting about the mines have no idea. I have worked in mines and in construction. Mines do pay good but i doubled my pay by working on big construction sites. Mines are slowly lowering workers pay by using contracting companies for everything. Trust me the mines aren't struggling to find qualified workers.
I used to love fly in fly out in construction because the company would fly you anywhere within 5 hours for your week off. When i was working in Perth i would fly out to bali for my week off and all it cost me was the accommodation.

[roberts]

Originally Posted by ray38l

how did this turn into a discussion about mine workers? Oh well i might as well join in.
Most people commenting about the mines have no idea. I have worked in mines and in construction. Mines do pay good but i doubled my pay by working on big construction sites. Mines are slowly lowering workers pay by using contracting companies for everything. Trust me the mines aren't struggling to find qualified workers.
I used to love fly in fly out in construction because the company would fly you anywhere within 5 hours for your week off. When i was working in Perth i would fly out to bali for my week off and all it cost me was the accommodation.

when you have 200,000 newly unemployed people wanting your job, what benefits do you think you will get?

[2011G6E]

Do they offer workers at the car makers a cheap deal to buy a new car? I vividly remember the day the Gemini production plant closed (rear wheel drive ones), and the news showed the car park emptying...virtually every single car was a Gemini.

My friends uncle lives in Germany, and works at Mercedes Benz and the last i heard when he visited his uncle (about five years ago) they were still getting a deal which said they got a massive discount on a new Benz, with the proviso that they sign a declaration saying they won't sell the car for at least two years.

Are there any figures showing exactly how "big" a part of GM and Ford USA is Ford and Holden here?

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Do they offer workers at the car makers a cheap deal to buy a new car? I vividly remember the day the Gemini production plant closed (rear wheel drive ones), and the news showed the car park emptying...virtually every single car was a Gemini.

My friends uncle lives in Germany, and works at Mercedes Benz and the last i heard when he visited his uncle (about five years ago) they were still getting a deal which said they got a massive discount on a new Benz, with the proviso that they sign a declaration saying they won't sell the car for at least two years.

Are there any figures showing exactly how "big" a part of GM and Ford USA is Ford and Holden here?

I don't really understand this 'discount vehicles' scheme, it perplexes me. If manufacturing in Australia is unsustainable...surely giving a discount would just make the situation worse, requiring a larger bail out, right?

I know you refer to Europe & O/S fairly frequently, but the focus really needs to be on Australia, not what the Europeans are doing...

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Do they offer workers at the car makers a cheap deal to buy a new car? I vividly remember the day the Gemini production plant closed (rear wheel drive ones), and the news showed the car park emptying...virtually every single car was a Gemini.

Yes they do offer a very nice discount on new cars. But it is off RRP so for something like an XR6 its not really all that great. But you can get some good discounts for optioned up cars.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by roberts

your explanation is weak?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????
You just haven't been told yet, seriously this is why manufacturers have to tell customers this up front before they purchase a car.

It was a question (that is why I put an "?" at the end), NOT an explanation!!! But your use of the "?" above shows you don't understanf how it works!!

[Rockape]

Speaking of fly in fly out, back to work tomorrow

[Express]

Originally Posted by roberts

like jeeps have the bonnet catch on the passenger side foot well
if you look at the dash for any new car in Australia, you can see that the whole thing can be plugged into either side, image a line running down the centre of the dash it fits perfect, the gauge pod normally looks like it fits in the passenger airbag hole, VE's where the first I noticed when I was working at holden a few years ago. The new corollas have the handbrake in the middle of the center console.

I notice it quite a bit. Obviously it’s to keep production costs down for manufacturers that need to cater for both LHD & RHD markets. As you said, Holden is doing it, in fact it was mentioned in their marketing material when the VE was released, the Euro’s have been at it long before that and I guess the Asians also play the same game. It’s commonsense for any global vehicle.

.

[IDT]

Originally Posted by charles_wif_xf

You do realise that should any of the auto manufacturers shuts up shop, its effectively kills the component suppliers. And guess what, no component suppliers means no cars made in Australia. With 250,000 people out of work, no one will be able to buy these cheaper cars you speak of.

As for a stable economy... its a confidence game. Make of that what you will.

I dont see how. The market remains the same its just filled by those who are left. The same component suppliers that now service holden and ford will simply service ford (or visa versa). As for 250,000 workers. Are you telling me that Ford and Holdens manufacturing plants employ that many people? Where does this figure come from? As for component manufacturers. Do they really only have two customers? If that is their business model they don't deserve to be in business.

And yes we do have very stable economy. The level of unemployment is consistantly very low compared to the rest of the developed world, inflation is well controlled even with the Labour government. But it should not be forgotten that we are very highly taxed and i don't see why I should work 70 hours a week to lose 48% to the government who inturn props up poorly managed private sector companies. Take that same money and employ those same people who would apparently loose thier jobs in building better infrastructure or even properly fund hospitals, police, nurses, ambos and fire brigades. Thats where I want my tax dollar going.

Apologies if i have offended anyone in the auto industry but i cant help but think there are more important areas that require funding

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by jpd80

No, their currency is low because they have a $14.3 trillion debt and they're
about to have the ceiling raised another $2.3 trillion to stop them defaulting.
By comparison, our $30 billion debt looks bloody lightweight...

We have credit card debt alone of $49.3billion, that figure has worsened since GFC 2008-9 when it was $46 billion. Our personal (non GovCo) levels of debt are among the worlds highest.
http://www.news.com.au/money/money-m...#ixzz1MiDEa51X

Australia is a bubble.

Reserve Bank of Australia "figures show mortgage, credit card and personal loan debts now stand at $1.2 trillion, up 71 per cent from just five years ago and equating to $56,000 for every man, woman and child in the country." (Source: Sydney Morning Herald, December 2009)

To compare Australia's position on the debt leader board to the U.S., each Australian adult is currently in debt to the value of around US$56,000, compared to the debt of American adults of US$44,000. Australians' mortgage, credit card debt and personal loans total over AU$1.2 trillion, which is an increase of 71 per cent from just five years ago.

(8)

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

I know you refer to Europe & O/S fairly frequently, but the focus really needs to be on Australia, not what the Europeans are doing...

I'm just facing the reality that Australia doesn't exist in a vacuum where we can just ignore what is happening overseas, or ignore the fact that our car makers here (more accurately CKD-screwer-togetherers sometimes) are tiny and are minnows attempting to swim with whales by continually quoting that they are "world class".
Don't get me wrong...things like the Holden Calais and our G6E are good cars...very good cars in fact...but with just a little more effort and attention to detail, they could be truly great cars, worthy of comparison to anything similar from overseas that people might be tempted to look at in other dealers.

If you make the claim you are "world class", then sooner or later someone will call you on it and ask you to explain exactly how you are better than various major manufacturers overseas...and excuses that big fans love of "well they do the best they can", is no answer at all.
I don't think there's ever been a time when you can walk in off the street and buy such a huge variety of vehicles from such a massive range of countries around the world. And Holden and Ford have to face that fact. They no longer have a captive audience.

[Lotte]

Originally Posted by cartaa100

im not an expert on costs on egineering a car

I'll put it to you this way, what Holden paid for the Holden IQ system to be engineered was phenomenal...

[charles_wif_xf]

Originally Posted by WAForce8

I dont see how. The market remains the same its just filled by those who are left. The same component suppliers that now service holden and ford will simply service ford (or visa versa). As for 250,000 workers. Are you telling me that Ford and Holdens manufacturing plants employ that many people? Where does this figure come from? As for component manufacturers. Do they really only have two customers? If that is their business model they don't deserve to be in business.

And yes we do have very stable economy. The level of unemployment is consistantly very low compared to the rest of the developed world, inflation is well controlled even with the Labour government. But it should not be forgotten that we are very highly taxed and i don't see why I should work 70 hours a week to lose 48% to the government who inturn props up poorly managed private sector companies. Take that same money and employ those same people who would apparently loose thier jobs in building better infrastructure or even properly fund hospitals, police, nurses, ambos and fire brigades. Thats where I want my tax dollar going.

Apologies if i have offended anyone in the auto industry but i cant help but think there are more important areas that require funding

Holden, Ford and Toyota directly employ about 15-20,000 people. The 250,000 I and others have mentioned are employed in the companies associated with the manufacture of cars here.

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

I'm just facing the reality that Australia doesn't exist in a vacuum where we can just ignore what is happening overseas, or ignore the fact that our car makers here (more accurately CKD-screwer-togetherers sometimes) are tiny and are minnows attempting to swim with whales by continually quoting that they are "world class".
Don't get me wrong...things like the Holden Calais and our G6E are good cars...very good cars in fact...but with just a little more effort and attention to detail, they could be truly great cars, worthy of comparison to anything similar from overseas that people might be tempted to look at in other dealers.

If you make the claim you are "world class", then sooner or later someone will call you on it and ask you to explain exactly how you are better than various major manufacturers overseas...and excuses that big fans love of "well they do the best they can", is no answer at all.
I don't think there's ever been a time when you can walk in off the street and buy such a huge variety of vehicles from such a massive range of countries around the world. And Holden and Ford have to face that fact. They no longer have a captive audience.

I think at the end of the day, 'world class' doesn't really mean much...How many other manufacturers use it as a catch phrase? If we're going to keep coming back to that argument, then we may as well accept the fact that manufacturing will one day leave, and probably sooner rather than later.

But in saying that, we do need to compare 'like for like' - we can't go on comparing manufacturers like merc and bmw who employ x amount and roll out y amount of cars every day to a manufacturer in Australia that employs a amount and only rolls out b amount of cars every day... (I don't know exact numbers, and I'm not going to speculate)

And there's yet another good reason why manufacturing is going to the wall - there's too many cheap alternatives, very easy when your cars are made in some of the most substandard living environments in the world...Australian car manufacturers can't really compete with that can they? Unless it's bolstered by the government (ergo the tax payer), and that's not sustainable either, not by a long shot.

When comparing a market to enter, they look at what's already there, the threats that they face going there and the cost involved in getting it there and keeping it there, plus what kind of profit will be left after the fact. If those numbers don't crunch the right way, a smart business WON'T do it...Holden seem to have the opposite approach, and it's becoming more and more obvious that they are more interested in the 'perception' that they are number one...even though they're going to end up hurting the Australian economy by making poor financial decisions...

The link that KeepLeft posted just adds further credence to what I posted yesterday with regard to 'borrowed money'...financial institutions want us to spend more, the cost of living has increased exponentially (although the cost of what the farmer gets really hasn't ). The thing is, living within your means isn't really that hard...the problem is all the marketing around us telling us what we 'need', which we don't really, it's all hype to 'keep up with the Jones'...

We've become a throw-away society, another thing that isn't sustainable. We get letters in the mail saying the price of electricity is rising, 6%...on top of the 15% last year...really what for? Those who got solar power were bitten on the backside by the powers that be, 'Green Car Funds' were introduced (at Tax payers expense no less) and Holden took well over 50% of that (for the record, I'm not bitter about that, they put in the submissions and got the money - I loathe the fact they're now saying it's not affordable without the Fund'), third world countries are becoming dumping grounds for old computers and televisions, people are living in substandard environments and starving in some of the richest land masses on the planet.

In all honesty, I don't think we should be looking to Europe or the US for answers on how to run our country...Europe's banks went belly up and in the US people were walking out of their homes and leaving the keys in the letterbox...

We have some of the best R&D in the world - agricultural chemicals that aren't affected by drought, the Ford territory engineering, cancer vaccines made by Australians. We have a great country here...it's about time we started realising that instead of looking for answers somewhere else, before the land we own gets sold off and used to prop up the Chinese economy because they're now getting a 'western diet'...

I can think of a lot better things to spend money on than keeping Holden in Australia if they're just going to suck the life out of us, and then go offshore anyway...

I think as Australian's we need to understand that 'niche' markets are where it's at - our Mangoes are exported to Japan...in a supermarket in Australia, you can pick one up for $2, probably cheaper - in a supermarket in Japan, $90 (approx)...crayfish exported to Singapore get bigger dollars than those sold locally, abalone, well it's expensive here - but it gets canned and sent overseas, at around $90 a tin as well...don't get me wrong, some of these markets get funding too (if they ask for it).

If we can make niche markets with R&D great, because lets face it, there's big money to be made - Is there big money to be made supporting a company that doesn't really want to support itself? (take the 185 billion every year for 'support payments', and the answer is no). They're not learning anything if they keep getting 'supported', if they're not getting supported, they'll learn to fend for themselves. That's my take on it anyway...I know there are many who will disagree, but just putting it out there as food for thought.

[ivorya]

Originally Posted by roberts

if you have driven any demo cars lately or been to a dealer look at the sticker on the left side of the windscreen, it has the forecast fuel economy on it and allso has in kg the amount of c02 the car emits, they are only on brand new cars and are pulled off before people take delivery, but anyway I have never under stood why it was on there till all this carbon tax priced per ton speak happened. Its quite clear that this figure will be used to determine the amount of carbon the car uses and will go on to your yearly redgo charge, small car less charge, big car higher charge, performance car bendover. When the game is explained watch small car sales double. Wouldn't it be good if the government owned a car company that sold one model with the least taxes, oh didn't the Nazi's do this with beetles
OH YEAH THE SAME SORT OF STICKERS ARE ON YOUR FIDGE AND DISHWASHER AND CLOTHS DRYER in kw's, making sense.

Bu-Bown!!!!!

What about the power that the industry uses to produce the car?

This will also be factored in BUT guess what........ The world is not going to crash around us. Car prices aren't going to priced out of reach.

Fear/Negativity is such a destructive tool!!!!

[roberts]

Originally Posted by ivorya

Bu-Bown!!!!!

What about the power that the industry uses to produce the car?

This will also be factored in BUT guess what........ The world is not going to crash around us. Car prices aren't going to priced out of reach.

Fear/Negativity is such a destructive tool!!!!

Fear makes you feel alive, complacency in my opinion is one step from death.
The world is played like a chess game, but the reason you are alive is because your ancestors where warriors you come from a strong bloodline, manning up inst about yelling at the waitress, its taking control of your future and of others. We are not the first generation to deal with what is coming our way and we wont be the last.

[vztrt]

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-new...213-1orz3.html

Holden set to decide on Commodore future
Toby Hagon
December 13, 2011 - 1:39PM

Holden is set to decide within weeks on the long term future of the Commodore large car.

Holden will decide on its long term manufacturing future in Australia within weeks, potentially signing off on the billion-dollar-plus development of next generation vehicles - or calling an end to the local production of Holden cars that has been ongoing since 1948.

Holden chairman and managing director Mike Devereux confirmed a decision on Holden's manufacturing future beyond 2018 would likely be made by the end of the year.

Already Holden is preparing the 2013 VF Commodore, which will continue in various iterations until at least 2017, but beyond that decisions are yet to be made on what car - if any - Holden will produce in Australia.
Advertisement: Story continues below

The long term future of Holden's local operations were thrown into doubt recently by union claims that Holden was looking to significantly scale back its local design and engineering teams.

"We are pretty close to making that decision [on long term local production]. When we make it I won't tell you what it is," said Devereux, who confirmed that if the decision is positive it will involve producing two vehicles in the same facility, in much the same way as the Commodore and Cruze are built on the same line currently, giving flexibility to adapt to market demands and diversity across vehicle segments.

Devereux said he is currently in discussions with the government to secure long term assistance, whether it involves co-investment, tax breaks or other incentives to help the Australian operation of General Motors compete with other countries for engineering, design and manufacturing work.

"We need to have pretty solid conversations with the government - and we're having those [now]," said Devereux.

Predictably - and, perhaps, reassuringly - Devereux is talking as though the next generation Commodore large car will be built in Australia, albeit likely to an international design as car makers around the world look to reduce the number of variants they produce globally.

"We're working on the business cases not just for a larger vehicle but for also something else. We have a lot of degrees of freedom to make sure that those things are what you're going to want to drive six years from now in numbers we need to make in order for the thing to work.

He said production flexibility - something Holden is a leader in within the General Motors world - was still key to the long term prosperity of the local manufacturing arm.

"[In South Australia we have to build] 51 different variants - and that is the name of the game for us."

Ford is also understood to be close to deciding on its long term future and what form any local manufacturing would take, with the locally-engineered Falcon set to be replaced by a global design about 2014 or 2015. Ford executives had previously said the decision on the future of the Falcon would be made by now, although it's understood not to have been.

"We are continuing to look for ways to improve and increase our local production," said Ford Australia public affairs director Sinead Phipps, who added the company was looking at "model lines relevant and viable for Australian consumers".

"We are absolutely working on a plan to continue in Australia."

In his role as president of the Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries and chief of Holden Devereux has been vocal on the government's decision this year to slash $800 million in funding to the industry - through the redirection of the remainder of the Green Car Innovation Fund to Queensland's flood relief - saying it threatens the long term viability of local vehicle manufacturing.

He said the unexpected changing of long term plans sends a poor message to multi-national companies such as General Motors, Ford and Toyota.

"What is absolutely critical is long-term policy certainty, clarity, consistency and competitiveness," said Devereux.

He also said the current level of government assistance was insufficient to secure the next round of investment in future models, decisions for which are being made now.

Devereux also recently reinforced the importance of vehicle manufacturing to the Australian skills base and economy as a whole.

Citing renewed UK and US emphasis on vehicle manufacturing he also said Australia's level of assistance to its automotive industry - something also given to mining, education, tourism and agriculture industries - was below that of most other car-producing countries.

"Government investment, or intervention, should not be a dirty word," said Devereux.

[LTDHO]

I think it strange as Holden outsell Ford.

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by DoreSlamR

I'm prepared for a flaming here but if Holden, Ford or whoever can't stand on their own two feet without being propped up by taxpayers money, then they need to go.

This is the problem with businesses in the USA, "the too big to fail" claim is a misnomer.

Yes jobs will be lost but last time I checked there's a labour shortage in other sectors (like mining) all over Australia.

That will keep Australia going for maybe two hundred years. What do our grandkids do after that, when we've sold all our natural, non renewable wealth for cents in the dollar and completely destroyed all manufacturing? We all can't work for the public service.

Oh and then there is the food shortages that are coming, with Australia's ongoing overpopulation issue, but lets not talk about that.

No I think we need to get over mining and realise its a temporary boom in the big picture and we need some foresight and planning now for our kids future.

Holden, Ford and Toyota are all subsidised, because every car manufacturer in every country that makes cars is. Nothing unusual. In fact we do far, far less than most to retain our car industry. Time we did more. For a start our government should tear up any free trade agreements with countries like Thailand that don't allow our cars in on a level playing field.

Dan

[blk6t]

Maybe Holden and Ford in Aus could consolidate, can you imagine the range of performance cars that would be available, Holden/HSV chassis, FPV/Ford drivelines...

Holden are very safe here in Aus, the Commodore will be around until at least 2017, by then who knows what world we will be living in and what the economy of Aus will be like. Also, Ford will be long gone before Holden, and Falcons are still being built so.....nothing to fret about yet.

The biggest problem is the damn Media, pushing out these negative stories of the Falcon and Commodore which causes people to reconsider buying said cars.

[pottery beige]

the ranga said its all good.. we can all go build wind farms....

[Gobes32]

Could not help but feel that the story had a negative slant on Ford Australia, or am I just sensitive?

Holden are in a world of trouble right now. A car that is 6 years old still for sale, a terrible V6 range, overproduction of 3000 cars a month, begging for money from the government and a parent company that is on the verge of collapse, AGAIN!

Ford meanwhile have a fresh range of vehicles being voted best in their class, world class motors, an all new LPG setup, production that is tailored to demand so there is no cars on grass and a parent company that is raking in the dollars. But of course, Holden and GM sell more cars, don't they?

[V8 6I]

Its the Ford Motor Company not the Falcon Car Company,Even if the Falcon goes does not mean Ford does.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by LTDHO

I think it strange as Holden outsell Ford.

[MAD]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

the ranga said its all good.. we can all go build wind farms....

Maybe that's the "two vehicles" and the "something else"
Two vehicles = wind turbine blade transporter, and golf buggy's required to show the government suckers around the plant.

And the something else = Battery recycling bins for the 'Volt'.

[Mr Hardware]

Originally Posted by V8 6I

Its the Ford Motor Company not the Falcon Car Company,Even if the Falcon goes does not mean Ford does.

Oh, i'd forgotten about those little german hatchbacks that wear the same badge as cars from the Falcon Car Company.