VE Commodore: Watch this space!!!

[MoreHPformyXR6]

To bad there was no photos of the VE's rear (the front looks quite a bit like the BA/BF lines) Does anyone know the curb weight for the VE Exec as opposed to the BF XT?
200kw for the six (thats a ncye round figure)

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by merlin

How exactly given that the Fords beat them now in head to head tests, they are adding 140kg and keeping similar power levels....(scratches head)

Only if its the turbo 6 - the accidental falcon hero

[McobraR]

Hmmm, If the VE is to have 200kw, i wonder how much the Aurion will have considering toyota was advertising it to be the future of V6's.

[phillyc]

I was more interested in looking past the quad pipes and more specifically looking at the rear suspension linkages. They look different to me.

Anyway, as far as weight goes. Only two months or so ago, MOTOR/WHEELS were saying the VE will be 200kg heavier...

As for the styling i think they look quite good, alot like the previous Astra (not a bad looking unit). But i will reserve judement until i see actual production models.

Currently, the Fords (6cyl) are significantly quicker than the Commodores. The V8 Holdens are quicker (although the 5.6s 0-100 of the SS has never been repeated and was 'a pre-production mule' given to Motor just to give Holden a headline. - ie continuing a trademark move by them established nearly a decade ago) than the Ford V8's.

The Typhoon has been proven again to be the quickest of all performance cars either FPV or HSV.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by ClevlndStemer

WTF?
I am a ford fan (always have been) but I am not one eyed. I used to be until I bought my falcon. It was an ignorance buy based on brand. It made me realise if I am going to spend my hard earned cash on a car I will want to be happy with it, I don't care of the brand. If Ford can't make a decent car am I supposed to just buy one anyway cause I am a Ford fan? I buy what I like, so far the VE I like.

I am with you. I am especially liking what I hear about the HSV range. On paper IF Holden introduce everything they had planed then Ford are going to have a hard time matching them in the short term. Some of the technology slated for HSV, Ford is just moving into developing. Ford has their own quality issues. I especially like the idea of getting their engines in the current line up and getting the bugs sorted so there isn't a repeat of the LS1 or dare I say it the Boss saga.

Even those rather ordinary renditions look rather ominous to me. They haven't dropped the ball to the degree that will give Ford a free kick.

[EFFalcon]

Originally Posted by Ultimate

Dude your no ford fan if you say that. Why would you be on a ford forum if you think like that. Why are there so many threads about P.O.S holdens on this section anyway.

how old are you?

[UNR8D]

Originally Posted by McobraR

Hmmm, If the VE is to have 200kw, i wonder how much the Aurion will have considering toyota was advertising it to be the future of V6's.

Aurion will be 200 or 205kw stock but FWD meaning more power to the ground or less power loss, 6 speed auto std with ESP TRC EBD ABS 8 airbags accross the range and a drivers knee airbag from the lexus, their will be a SC V6 version going AWD from kluger and 260+KW once again thru the 6 speed auto etc etc.

[NZ]

Originally Posted by EFFalcon

how old are you?

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showpos...13&postcount=4

your answer is there

[2kool4u]

Originally Posted by merlin

How exactly given that the Fords beat them now in head to head tests, they are adding 140kg and keeping similar power levels....(scratches head)

How do fords beat them now, the GT is slower than the SS?? yeah the XR6 ИИИИИs on the sv6 but thats about all, the holdens are still faster around a track. The holdens will still be able to crack less than a 6 second 0-100, which is faster than an XR8 or GT.

from what I've read about it the VE will have a whole new suspension setup far more advanced than fords system, plus the new body has allowed them to mount the engine lower and a lot further back, apparently to the point where it could almost be called mid-engined. If this is true it willl handle

[2kool4u]

Originally Posted by phillyc

The Typhoon has been proven again to be the quickest of all performance cars either FPV or HSV.

Are you forgetting the clubsport DTS, 0-100 in 5.2 seconds, I've yet to see a typhoon better that.

[XA-Coupe]

Originally Posted by ClevlndStemer

WTF?
I am a ford fan (always have been) but I am not one eyed. I used to be until I bought my falcon. It was an ignorance buy based on brand. It made me realise if I am going to spend my hard earned cash on a car I will want to be happy with it, I don't care of the brand. If Ford can't make a decent car am I supposed to just buy one anyway cause I am a Ford fan? I buy what I like, so far the VE I like.

don't like the XT ?

[BlueRaven]

I'm dissapointed with the images, but I believe, like the supposed spy-pics I've seen so far, that they will bear little resemblance to the real thing.

I'll just have to wait longer.

I'm actually really looking forward to it. I've been waiting years to see what Holden will release to combat the BA/BF convincingly. Its unfortunate that less parts of the Holden will be from Australia, but expected.

[FPV]

I don't see how HSV will use the ZF transmission when there is the GM 6 speed which is fine for performance applications. The STS-V uses the GM 6L80 and has a high torque level, would there be a point in getting an outside supplier for the transmission when the internal supplier can make a suitable transmission? I would expect Ford/FPV to be ready for the VE with a BF mkII. When the VT came out, the EL was not exactly the most sophisticated sedan around with live axle and all, but it was trusty. Currently the BF is a world class car and is currently at the top of the australian sedan tree.

[2kool4u]

FPV, I thinks its cause of how good the ZF is, I don't think GM could make a gearbox as strong while still retaining superfast shifts and smoothness. GM is afterall american lol

[FPV]

Originally Posted by 2kool4u

FPV, I thinks its cause of how good the ZF is, I don't think GM could make a gearbox as strong while still retaining superfast shifts and smoothness. GM is afterall american lol

The 6L80 is supposed to be quite good, maybe not as good as the ZF, but i think it would be up there. It can cope with 800Nm of torque, and unless HSV have got a tractor engine implanted in the VE, i think that would cover the torque output. It should be up for performance variants, after all the STS-V is similar to a GTS but cadillac style.

[2kool4u]

Yeah if the 6L80 is as good I can't see why they'd use the ZF, I think it's the prestige behind the name more than anything.

I wonder if HSV will bring the GTS back with the VE.

And with the introduction of the new engine would that mean they won't be using paul weels supercharger kit he developed for them??

[JPFS1]

Bland and uninspiring. Simple as that. I was hoping for something that would get me excited, but it is a letdown so far. mechanically VE will not be leaps and bounds above BF, it certaintly isn't in the styling department either.

Sure Orion is a little way off yet, but geez, it is going to show us all what fresh styling is meant to be!

And get ready for a power WAR!!!! ;)

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by 2kool4u

Are you forgetting the clubsport DTS, 0-100 in 5.2 seconds, I've yet to see a typhoon better that.

Typhoon's done the fastest 1/4 mile stock of any Australian sedan ever made. 12.94 @ 108mph. And with 108mph... you can go alot faster then 12.9, there's a better time left in those things.

It will obliterate any 297kW 6.0 HSV at anything you care to name. Even the only thing HSV stayed king of until now - straight line grunt.

[AWD Chaser]

Who decided that the base line family sedan should have 200Kw? Cool, but unessecary. I wonder what Ford will come back with to compare? And Toyota for that.

I really think that Holden and most of the reporting Journo's should be eating their words right now.... Just a large Astra - wonder if they will make a convertible model.

I do agree with doing away with the wagon however. The Adventura is really that already... just alot more expensive....

[ltd]

Originally Posted by HSE2

I am with you. I am especially liking what I hear about the HSV range. On paper IF Holden introduce everything they had planed then Ford are going to have a hard time matching them in the short term. Some of the technology slated for HSV, Ford is just moving into developing. Ford has their own quality issues. I especially like the idea of getting their engines in the current line up and getting the bugs sorted so there isn't a repeat of the LS1 or dare I say it the Boss saga.

Even those rather ordinary renditions look rather ominous to me. They haven't dropped the ball to the degree that will give Ford a free kick.

Couple of things, Ford have introduced a lot of technology that Holden can only dream of, and there is nothing new with the HSV that is not readily available. Or maybe you are referring to the ZF gearbox. Too late, it's already in Ford's model lineup. The only thing Holden are doing differently that Ford has not already done is curtain air bags. However they are already on Territory.
In regards to the Boss 260 saga; what exactly are you talking about? There is/was no saga with either the 220 or 260 v8's.
The LS1 saga though is set to repeat itself with the engines coming from the USA plagued with the same problems that saw the gen3 become a joke.

GM has applied the same idiotic approach to all of their v8's including the LS4 and LS2 by using hollowed out pistons (they were trying to reduce reciprocating mass) which enables the piston to move laterally in the cylinder. Even the fix of putting steel inserts into the cylinders is having little success as most of them dislodge. And on top of that, its an alloy block so any noise is transmitted at a much greater level than steel. Don't believe me?
Check this out. http://www.pistonslap.com/

[ltd]

Just in case you got lazy, here is some text from the main page. Look for where it says 6.0.



"GM Consumers, do you have a 1999-2005 (2006?) 3.1, 3.4, 4.3, 4.6 (Northstar), 4.8, 5.3, 5.7(LS1), 6.0 or 8.1 liter engine that displays any of the following problems?

A loud embarrassing and annoying internal engine knock. Many are defective due to design and manufacturing quality consistency problems. Listen to piston slap here.


Higher than normal levels of wear related materials in oil analysis samples performed by independent laboratories.


Vertical piston and cylinder wall scuffing/scratching or scoring on the hammering (noisy) cylinders upon visual inspection. See photos here.


Reduced combustion chamber compression on the hammering (noisy) cylinders.


Increased oil consumption.


Increased exhaust emissions.


Did GM or there agents tell you they would fix your defective vehicle in writing/and/or verbally when the phantom "New Piston" fix WAS TO arrive in the spring or summer of 2002? GM did in fact admit it had a problem and that its engineering department was working on the fix. The fix was promised to be made to consumer’s engines in the spring or summer of 2002. As the number of slapping engines grew and the cost to repair them grew as well, GM changed its policy."



Oh, and the front definately takes its styling cues from the falcon, and the rear takes its design right from the 380. I suspect that this will be a very critical car for holden, especially when they can't discount the hell out of the car to appeal to fleets, especially when they have spent some development bucks on it. I'd be very interested to see how the car stacks up in the fleets/accountants opinion.

[Falcon_Phill]

It looks like a friggin muppet car. And whats with the colors? I like the current models better.

[ltd]

Just did a search HSE2, found the 5.4 ford v8 did have piston slap. Is that the saga you speak of?
It occurred on engines built in Windsor canada between 1997-1999. It was approximately 0.1% of engines. Ford replaced all of them at no cost, and on the older vehicles provided rebuilt engines that were done at the same factory in Windsor Canada. Apparently they replaced the blocks on the rebuilt ones too.

[Iphido]

ZF is concidering to build a manufacturing plant I heard here in Australia to fill the void of the Ion group.

We may find Holden and Ford may both use the ZF transmission, but it may be made here in Australia and supply Australia (Ford/Holden) and possibly South Africa (BMW).

If both ford and Holden used the ZF trans thats over 200,000 transmissions a year, BMW would round that out to over 300,000 and I belive the Ford/US plant only has capacity for 250,000 total. The ZF is currently used in several SUV's with the 5.4, and is expected to take over from many other transmissions in RWD vechicals. US could pick remaining transmission quantity.

ZF may also be interested in perhaps picking up where ION fell over with block casting for the Alloytech and also supplying differentials and other mechanicals. Australia now has FTA with the US and several other countries and materials/energy cost are low.

Not to mention the ZF transmission appears in several locally made military and agricultural vechicals which would ensure government support and further diversification of customers.

It would be excellent to see it locally made and ZF playing a intergral part in Australian automotive industry.

I would expect Ford to add rear side airbags to BF II to combat the lack of curtain airbags. This would bring the airbag count to 6 and would be acceptable to lack of curtain bags which don't fit in the pillars. It would also be the easiest option.

I would expect Ford to also up the power on the I6 engines, as Toyota, Holden, Hyundia would all be leading it in power. This might be done by just a recalibration of the ECU (across the range) or a unique exhaust (XR + Ghia). Ford may sit fit to carry on with only 190kw. I would also like to see them try and hit EURO IV emissions which would completely erradicate any "big fat falcon" talk being the most economical and cleanest australian made car. No good of course if EU4 means less driveable engines tho.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by ltd

Just did a search HSE2, found the 5.4 ford v8 did have piston slap. Is that the saga you speak of?
It occurred on engines built in Windsor canada between 1997-1999. It was approximately 0.1% of engines. Ford replaced all of them at no cost, and on the older vehicles provided rebuilt engines that were done at the same factory in Windsor Canada. Apparently they replaced the blocks on the rebuilt ones too.

Why dont you keep doing some research and do it a bit closer to home then we can talk just in case YOU get lazy that is!

[ltd]

Originally Posted by HSE2

Why dont you keep doing some research and do it a bit closer to home then we can talk just in case YOU get lazy that is!

Nup, nothing. What problems are you talking about?

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by ltd

Couple of things, Ford have introduced a lot of technology that Holden can only dream of, and there is nothing new with the HSV that is not readily available. Or maybe you are referring to the ZF gearbox. Too late, it's already in Ford's model lineup. The only thing Holden are doing differently that Ford has not already done is curtain air bags. However they are already on Territory.
In regards to the Boss 260 saga; what exactly are you talking about? There is/was no saga with either the 220 or 260 v8's.
The LS1 saga though is set to repeat itself with the engines coming from the USA plagued with the same problems that saw the gen3 become a joke.

Do you often quote people with out reading what was said? Did I say Boss 260? Since when has 220 been referred to as a Boss engine? Do you actually know the Ford product?

Did I say anything about what Ford has done now? Let's forget for an instant that Ford or FPV don't offer tyre pressure monitoring Xenon lights or adjustable suspension just to name a few. HSV look certain to introduce a fully adaptive suspension system, a first for an Australian made car. Now if they use what GM hold the patent for, it is the quickest reacting system in the world, far advanced of those offered by line blocks and valves. Things like HUD have also been mentioned in line with some HSV models. ON PAPER they SOUND exciting.

History has shown us that Holden often get the jump with bringing technology to the market first with Ford being perceived as a follower. That’s an image that Ford has been trying to banish for some time but at what cost? The importance seems to have shifted. It’s no good of introducing technology that no one options or buys just to allow you to claim you were first! That seems to be the case with some of HSV issues right now.

When Ford does introduce similar features to Holden they are inevitably of a better standard and design. That hasn't really helped them on the sales chart though. With VE, Holden haven't cut the corners to the same degree that they historically do. The margin where Ford can come over the top has decreased to the point that the substantial difference between the two products today probably wont exist in the future unless Ford wants to push the price to a point where it is no longer competitive and in this climate in this segment that wont happen.

Those couple of things you had for me, well they aren't relevant. I am however intrigued by the claim that Ford has introduced technology that Holden can only dream of. In this country no technology or very little of it is introduced. We adapt and we follow. The two companies often move in different directions but we are essentially talking about two very big parent companies. Different ideology and strategies dictate those directions and it’s very unlikely the idea of a dream hasn't been considered.

I said I especially like what I am hearing about HSV. That’s my opinion. I stand by what I say. I am extremely eager to see what HSV come up with and if the reality matches the hype. I said I like the idea of getting the drivelines into the current model. It’s very BMW thinking and is a step in removing the “don't buy the first of a new model” car syndrome. That’s my opinion- take it or leave it.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by FPV

The 6L80 is supposed to be quite good, maybe not as good as the ZF, but i think it would be up there. It can cope with 800Nm of torque, and unless HSV have got a tractor engine implanted in the VE, i think that would cover the torque output. It should be up for performance variants, after all the STS-V is similar to a GTS but cadillac style.

This is something I can’t get my head around either. The GM box is good and it is owned by GM. Supposedly Ford can offer the ZF box at the price they have due to the world wide business Ford does with ZF and that includes large numbers of Land Rover and Jag versions. Does GM globally use ZF to the same degree as Ford? I wouldn't have guessed that they would.

So I assume that leaves Holden having to have a small number of ZF units in the factory to be installed in the HSV destined cars. Unless this is going to be done at HSV that is. Doesn't seem logical to me given how good the GM box is. It’s just going to eat into the HSV bottom line and from a business prospective doesn't match what they have done previously.

[Poetic Justice]

From what you CAN see, the cars don't look that much enticing.

The wagon from the rear looks a direct rip from the new Lancer wagon.

But I will reserve my ultimate judgement for real pictures.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by HSE2

This is something I can’t get my head around either. The GM box is good and it is owned by GM. Supposedly Ford can offer the ZF box at the price they have due to the world wide business Ford does with ZF and that includes large numbers of Land Rover and Jag versions. Does GM globally use ZF to the same degree as Ford? I wouldn't have guessed that they would.

So I assume that leaves Holden having to have a small number of ZF units in the factory to be installed in the HSV destined cars. Unless this is going to be done at HSV that is. Doesn't seem logical to me given how good the GM box is. It’s just going to eat into the HSV bottom line and from a business prospective doesn't match what they have done previously.

Very good point. Especially as the biggest part of Ford's development budget in adding the ZF to its range was calibrating the electronics (man hours and testing) to factor in TC/ DSC/ABS and all the other features the new box offers. I don't think the GM A6 has the outright electronic capablities and to have HSV calibrate the german box for its very small numbers would be cost prohibitive I would assume. I know that ZF are supplying Holden for VE but its for steering components atm and maybe this is being mistakenly extrapolated to gearboxes as well. Holden has delayed VE to bring down its costs. The financial restraints must have been huge, so much so that they chose to release VZ in '06 with 6.0L V8's and Euro III V6's and it was still considered more cost effective to delay VE and change VZ.