Century Batteries

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by PG2

Back in the early nineties we used to buy a lot of batteries off the panel shop next door. He was one of the most laid back people you would ever meet but God help you if you put one of his batteries on the concrete floor.

To this day, I can't bring myself to do it. Not trying to go all religious, but I put it on the same level as not eating red meat on Good Friday.

Those were the bad old days when battery casings were made from rubber; thank god for plastic these days.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by arm79

If there's no science behind it and it's an old wives tale, then why do manufacturers store them on pallets and retailers store them on stands and shelves.

Even they're too scared to put them on concrete. Think about it!

Wives tale these days for the concrete floor to discharge batteries.
Shelves are for space saving and ease on your back for lifting....lol

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

I was told to never place batteries on a concrete floor many many years ago and to this day can not bring myself to do it.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Bluehoon

If batteries aren't lasting check your earths & upgrade them.

Bad earthing is a killer every time. Was having issues with head light globes popping and sluggy starting on my BF. Extra earth strap from chassis to negative terminal - sorted. Made a surprising difference.

Last century in BF lasted 5.5 years. Replaced this year.
Never touched, maintained or trickle charged - noting.

5.5 years on a 67EF MF with E-gas hard cold starting and ignition - can't complain.

XR8 - 4 years and going strong.

Century quality hasn't dropped at all.

Check your earthing.

Thats a good point, was common drama on E series Falcons too, you can test the earthing to engine and body by putting the negative clamp of your battery load tester either on a metal part of the engine like the hook there for lifting it out with a crane, or a bolt on the shock tower to see what the engine and body earths are like.

Compare it to doing it directly on the battery and it can tell a story there about your earthing.

When I'm upgrading engine and body earths I use 2BS/35mm2 cable, because I have a ****load of it on hand

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Bare in mind N120/N150/N200 size batteries are physically massive, have thicker plates and a lot more solution inside them, if you look at their low CCA rating in comparison to their size and weight I think there's something in that in comparison to the car type.

If you look at ye olde Century 86, it's a bit bigger than an N70Z size what you'd have in a diesel Hilux but it doesn't have much of a CCA rating, it's much heavier, it's maintenance type and it lasts a very long time.

Everyone's failures here have been latest generation car maintenance free century stuff.

Might be something in this.

For reference to what I'm talking about look at CCA, physical dimensions and weight

86

https://www.batteriesdirect.com.au/s.../34229/86.html

N120

https://www.centurybatteries.com.au/...r/product/n120

N150

https://www.centurybatteries.com.au/...r/product/n150

N200

https://www.centurybatteries.com.au/...r/product/n200

There's not much CCA there but there's lots of weight.

Funny you mention the N120, which shows 740 something CCA in the text but when you insert the info from the older Trader, N120MF shows 900 CCA.
Considering its down to - 2 here for the last week or so, the truck doesn't seem to wanting more CCA even with its needs of the quick start system at the moment.
The later models have 2 NS70's at around 700CCA each.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Funny you mention the N120, which shows 740 something CCA in the text but when you insert the info from the older Trader, N120MF shows 900 CCA.
Considering its down to - 2 here for the last week or so, the truck doesn't seem to wanting more CCA even with its needs of the quick start system at the moment.
The later models have 2 NS70's at around 700CCA each.

N120 and N120 MF are two different products, one is ye olde style and the other is the maintenance free type (which has a higher CCA rating):

https://www.centurybatteries.com.au/...r/product/n120

https://www.centurybatteries.com.au/...n120%20mf/info

Note that the old banger is 3kg heavier than the newer and higher rated MF variety - less lead? Thinner plates? There's something in that I think.

From Century's own catalogue:

Higher CCA’s can be achieved through the addition of more battery plates; at the detriment of plate size, thickness and separator quality. In colder climates more plates and higher CCA’s excel however in hotter climates such as in Australia, the ability to combat corrosion, water loss, vibration and constant idling is as important as cranking capacity

https://www.centurybatteries.com.au/...rochure-LR.pdf

They're probably just suggesting the MF variations on their 'battery finder' application, cataloguing is a serious problem with automotive aftermarket, most of the time everyones full range isn't listed or incorrect listings left right and centre.

If you put normal N70ZZ in Kenworth cab over trucks, they'd munch through them real quick, they had a variation made specifically for those trucks called 'severe service' which had some stuff inside to mitigate vibrations.

https://www.centurybatteries.com.au/...y/n70zzhx/info

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

N120 and N120 MF are two different products, one is ye olde style and the other is the maintenance free type (which has a higher CCA rating):

https://www.centurybatteries.com.au/...r/product/n120

https://www.centurybatteries.com.au/...n120%20mf/info

Note that the old banger is 3kg heavier than the newer and higher rated MF variety - less lead? Thinner plates? There's something in that I think.

They're probably just suggesting the MF variations on their 'battery finder' application, cataloguing is a serious problem with automotive aftermarket, most of the time everyones full range isn't listed or incorrect listings left right and centre.

Yep that's the right one I'm using and it actually is a maintenance free one.
Had no issues with it to please OP.
Just think its funny the older buses with more interior stuff, lights, electric door opener etc had the 120 where as the newer Trader truck has 2 parralleded 12V.
Engines are identical so use the same quick start system, no glow plugs.

[Citroënbender]

Century 57EF MF, 26 months old:

570 tested, rated 560 CCA. I’ll check it again next year.

[CFOUR]

have 4 centuries in the driveway, 1x 8 years old, 2x 3 years old and 1x 6 months old will see if it fails first. went out and checked the for-recycling battery pile the two car batteries are both dead centuries both have dead cells both did last warranty period.

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Going on this journey I am now wondering a few things :

1) Would a huge chain like Supercheap Auto have a deal with Century where they get their batteries made to a price to maximise profits, and if the battery could be a different battery, possibly lower quality (although it looks the same as all others). I have heard of similar deals with large chain stores.

2) Would battery components be affected by recent increase in need of battery components for Solar Systems and electric cars, driving the prices of raw materials up forcing manufacturers to us inferior materials or less of them to keep product costs down? Bit like Burgers/Breadrolls/Bags of Chips/ even vegetables etc getting smaller (has anyone noticed how small vegetables that sell by each rather than weight have gotten?? Cauliflowers, lettuces etc are about 1/3rd the size they used to be yet prices have gone up)

3) I need to buy a battery this week for my EL Falcon, considering either another Century (not from a chain store) and just keep claiming on the warranty, or a Supercharge battery (which also has poor reviews online) with the same 40 months warranty.

Any others readily available that also offer a long warranty period and may have a better feed back rating for recent batteries

I am talking batteries less that 2 years old, I see the stories here of batteries lasting 8 years etc, that's fine my last battery lasted over ten years and every other battery I have ever had lasted 6-10 years, but batteries purchased in the past 24 months only last about 11-12 months.

[Tassie f100]

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

Going on this journey I am now wondering a few things :

1) Would a huge chain like Supercheap Auto have a deal with Century where they get their batteries made to a price to maximise profits, and if the battery could be a different battery, possibly lower quality (although it looks the same as all others). I have heard of similar deals with large chain stores.

2) Would battery components be affected by recent increase in need of battery components for Solar Systems and electric cars, driving the prices of raw materials up forcing manufacturers to us inferior materials or less of them to keep product costs down? Bit like Burgers/Breadrolls/Bags of Chips/ even vegetables etc getting smaller (has anyone noticed how small vegetables that sell by each rather than weight have gotten?? Cauliflowers, lettuces etc are about 1/3rd the size they used to be yet prices have gone up)

3) I need to buy a battery this week for my EL Falcon, considering either another Century (not from a chain store) and just keep claiming on the warranty, or a Supercharge battery (which also has poor reviews online) with the same 40 months warranty.

Any others readily available that also offer a long warranty period and may have a better feed back rating for recent batteries

I am talking batteries less that 2 years old, I see the stories here of batteries lasting 8 years etc, that's fine my last battery lasted over ten years and every other battery I have ever had lasted 6-10 years, but batteries purchased in the past 24 months only last about 11-12 months.

Quite possible that Supercheap get a range built to their price point.Bunnings do deals with power tool makers to make tools that look the same but aren’t,so why shouldn’t auto parts dealers do the same

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

Going on this journey I am now wondering a few things :

1) Would a huge chain like Supercheap Auto have a deal with Century where they get their batteries made to a price to maximise profits, and if the battery could be a different battery, possibly lower quality (although it looks the same as all others). I have heard of similar deals with large chain stores.

2) Would battery components be affected by recent increase in need of battery components for Solar Systems and electric cars, driving the prices of raw materials up forcing manufacturers to us inferior materials or less of them to keep product costs down? Bit like Burgers/Breadrolls/Bags of Chips/ even vegetables etc getting smaller (has anyone noticed how small vegetables that sell by each rather than weight have gotten?? Cauliflowers, lettuces etc are about 1/3rd the size they used to be yet prices have gone up)

3) I need to buy a battery this week for my EL Falcon, considering either another Century (not from a chain store) and just keep claiming on the warranty, or a Supercharge battery (which also has poor reviews online) with the same 40 months warranty.

Any others readily available that also offer a long warranty period and may have a better feed back rating for recent batteries

I am talking batteries less that 2 years old, I see the stories here of batteries lasting 8 years etc, that's fine my last battery lasted over ten years and every other battery I have ever had lasted 6-10 years, but batteries purchased in the past 24 months only last about 11-12 months.

I think that Century making a cheaper line of batteries for a large reseller like SCA but using the same branding/look as their core range is a terrible idea, it would cause irreparable damage to the brand if things went south.

If you look at the group, they also have the Yuasa Range with a different name, different coloured case, still made in Australia and they even share some of the same product part numbers as their Century brother:

https://www.yuasabatteries.com.au/pr...nger-batteries

67EF MF 'Yuasa':

https://www.yuasabatteries.com.au/re...7ef%20mf/25589

Has the same case, its just black and different branding stickers - why does this exist? They wanted separation of branding for some reason.

Century-Yuasa is the name of the group and they have a bunch of different brands under their fold:

https://www.cyb.com.au/about-us/brands

Curious about those Maxx branded batteries.

They also supply Motorcraft branded batteries for Ford, if they were to do something like this surely it would wear a home brand for SCA rather than the same blue/yellow case at a cheaper price point.

Ford also has another brand called 'Omnicraft' which is aimed at the automotive aftermarket, I'm not sure who manufactures this but I have one in my Caprice that was cheap AF.

SCA would either have contract pricing with Century where they are buying at a way cheaper price than your local auto alectrician or mechanic solely because of volume they deal in on a national scale, or maybe under a price matrix but at a wholesale distributor level.

The way it works in automotive aftermarket if you're a manufacturer of a product is your pricing is structured around two groups:

'Contract pricing'
'Price matrix'

All the very large customers usually have contract pricing, because of their buying power or they're only buying X Y and Z products that they specifically want rather than an entire range - IE for example if you were selling to Kenworth and all they bought was say N70ZZ and N120 but a ****load of them then they'd be under construct pricing on two products.

Or maybe you were approached by Thales and they want a battery for their Hawkei/Bushmaster vehicles - again these guys would come under contract pricing.

Otherwise everyone else goes under a price matrix, where it would be divided under 'business types' like:

Wholesale distributor
Reseller
Fleet
Trade workshop
Retail
****ers tax (my favorite )

They all have access to the same products but their buy price varies across each group depending on where they fit in.

Then within those groups they're further divided into small, medium, large which further effects their buy price even further.

IE - you have a mobile mechanic who has a few of your product on the shelf, he doesn't get as good buy price as what the workshop does who only has your product and moves lots of it, they're both 'trade workshop' category but one is small and one is large.

The trade workshops even at the best buy price won't be buying it as cheap as a small reseller like say 'Battery World' would, they carry heaps more stock and sell much more, they're a different category of business that usually will buy more volume.

Wholesale distributor can be your Burson/Repco/SCA with a national footprint and huge volumes, they buy at the lowest prices under the 'pricing matrix' structure - or they could also be under 'contract pricing' structure if they're only buying certain parts of your range.

I reckon its the same Century battery you can get from any of their resellers, rather than an el-cheapo version made to look the same specifically for SCA - this is absolute marketing suicide and I doubt they would because they have other variations like Yuasa and Motorcraft.

With the huge demand for renewable energy and batteries, I think most solar installations are using lithium batteries rather than flooded lead acid where there's advantages in depth of discharge and how hard you can smash it with current draw over flooded lead acid.

They also use lithium in EVs so I think if anything demand would be falling for flooded lead acid for these markets as there's better options the market uses for these purposes.

[FTE217]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I think that Century making a cheaper line of batteries for a large reseller like SCA but using the same branding/look as their core range is a terrible idea, it would cause irreparable damage to the brand if things went south.

If you look at the group, they also have the Yuasa Range with a different name, different coloured case, still made in Australia and they even share some of the same product part numbers as their Century brother:

https://www.yuasabatteries.com.au/pr...nger-batteries

67EF MF 'Yuasa':

https://www.yuasabatteries.com.au/re...7ef%20mf/25589

Has the same case, its just black and different branding stickers - why does this exist? They wanted separation of branding for some reason.

Century-Yuasa is the name of the group and they have a bunch of different brands under their fold:

https://www.cyb.com.au/about-us/brands

Curious about those Maxx branded batteries.

They also supply Motorcraft branded batteries for Ford, if they were to do something like this surely it would wear a home brand for SCA rather than the same blue/yellow case at a cheaper price point.

Ford also has another brand called 'Omnicraft' which is aimed at the automotive aftermarket, I'm not sure who manufactures this but I have one in my Caprice that was cheap AF.

SCA would either have contract pricing with Century where they are buying at a way cheaper price than your local auto alectrician or mechanic solely because of volume they deal in on a national scale, or maybe under a price matrix but at a wholesale distributor level.

The way it works in automotive aftermarket if you're a manufacturer of a product is your pricing is structured around two groups:

'Contract pricing'
'Price matrix'

All the very large customers usually have contract pricing, because of their buying power or they're only buying X Y and Z products that they specifically want rather than an entire range - IE for example if you were selling to Kenworth and all they bought was say N70ZZ and N120 but a ****load of them then they'd be under construct pricing on two products.

Or maybe you were approached by Thales and they want a battery for their Hawkei/Bushmaster vehicles - again these guys would come under contract pricing.

Otherwise everyone else goes under a price matrix, where it would be divided under 'business types' like:

Wholesale distributor
Reseller
Fleet
Trade workshop
Retail
****ers tax (my favorite )

They all have access to the same products but their buy price varies across each group depending on where they fit in.

Then within those groups they're further divided into small, medium, large which further effects their buy price even further.

IE - you have a mobile mechanic who has a few of your product on the shelf, he doesn't get as good buy price as what the workshop does who only has your product and moves lots of it, they're both 'trade workshop' category but one is small and one is large.

The trade workshops even at the best buy price won't be buying it as cheap as a small reseller like say 'Battery World' would, they carry heaps more stock and sell much more, they're a different category of business that usually will buy more volume.

Wholesale distributor can be your Burson/Repco/SCA with a national footprint and huge volumes, they buy at the lowest prices under the 'pricing matrix' structure - or they could also be under 'contract pricing' structure if they're only buying certain parts of your range.

I reckon its the same Century battery you can get from any of their resellers, rather than an el-cheapo version made to look the same specifically for SCA - this is absolute marketing suicide and I doubt they would because they have other variations like Yuasa and Motorcraft.

With the huge demand for renewable energy and batteries, I think most solar installations are using lithium batteries rather than flooded lead acid where there's advantages in depth of discharge and how hard you can smash it with current draw over flooded lead acid.

They also use lithium in EVs so I think if anything demand would be falling for flooded lead acid for these markets as there's better options the market uses for these purposes.

being in the game And might I add SCA is a customer and knowing many many fellow companies in the game NO WAY would Century nor any other reputable Manufacturer agree having their own brand at risk as such, sacrilidge.
In a customer's private brand yes made to a specific spec BUT NO way cheap to the point of premature early failures for again, that word gets out who's made this X brand or product let alone a private brand doesn't want to risk its rep as well, especially from a known company like SCA.
They learnt from their early days in regards to price to market with some of their own brands, have improved 1000%.
Its mainly the small crowds who risk importing from any shonky unqualified cheap factory who would do that type of business to market.

I got to say I think the tech of cars todays have put so much loads on battery life I've noticed mine hardly last like they used to back in the day.
Its also like playing roulette from observations, one persons battery last for yonks another 2yrs.
It is weird, my few rides, hilux 4x4 diesel obviously has a HD battery, why did the OE one last for so so many years that I've put 2 new ones in in a space of 5 years ???
Supercharge < led to believe they were ok, nope maybe 4yrs.
Now a Powersource one, we shall wait and see.

I don't think battery quality is anywhere near as good as the ol days.
Though all was so simple back then AND the good brands didn't skimp on any of their production components.

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by FTE217

I got to say I think the tech of cars todays have put so much loads on battery life I've noticed mine hardly last like they used to back in the day.

It's not the tech in the car, because the tech has not changed. Its a 2007 BF GT, the last battery lasted over 10 years, the one after that 11 month, the one after that 13 months. Same car treated the same way, no mechanical or battery drain issues.

So we are compering apples with apples. If it was only a one off then I would have been fine, as it's a one off, but twice in a row there is a problem, and I know 110% it's not the car.

Unfortunately my other car (EL GLI Falcon) also needs a new battery now (it's been in there at least 6 years so not an issue), but I am now concerned getting my go to battery for the past 20 or 30 years (Century) due to the above.

I have to probably buy one tomorrow as my daughter need the car for work for the week end and she can't drive the GT (P Plates), I guess I will just grab another Century battery and keep claiming the warranty if it also fails after 10-12 months.

My work car 4x4 has a century battery that's been on there for years without a single problem, but again it wasn't made in the past 2-3 years, and most bad feed back and personal experience seems to be from the past 24-36 months.

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by Tassie f100

Quite possible that Supercheap get a range built to their price point.Bunnings do deals with power tool makers to make tools that look the same but aren’t,so why shouldn’t auto parts dealers do the same

This is what made me think, because I know Bunnings get stuff made exclusively for them that is different to items bought elsewhere.

[FTE217]

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

It's not the tech in the car, because the tech has not changed. Its a 2007 BF GT, the last battery lasted over 10 years, the one after that 11 month, the one after that 13 months. Same car treated the same way, no mechanical or battery drain issues.

So we are compering apples with apples. If it was only a one off then I would have been fine, as it's a one off, but twice in a row there is a problem, and I know 110% it's not the car.

Unfortunately my other car (EL GLI Falcon) also needs a new battery now (it's been in there at least 6 years so not an issue), but I am now concerned getting my go to battery for the past 20 or 30 years (Century) due to the above.

I have to probably buy one tomorrow as my daughter need the car for work for the week end and she can't drive the GT (P Plates), I guess I will just grab another Century battery and keep claiming the warranty if it also fails after 10-12 months.

My work car 4x4 has a century battery that's been on there for years without a single problem, but again it wasn't made in the past 2-3 years, and most bad feed back and personal experience seems to be from the past 24-36 months.

Tech and batteries I should have quoted like 2010 on for they have ramped up alot more in all due repsect to the BF that I love by the way.....

Its a puzzling question re these batteries as mentioned.
The Sprint I bought new 2016, that battery lasted no more than 4yrs.
I was like WTF this is not right but having done some research I was told thats the norm.
I can't explain it but these companies have changed something let alone as mentioned the tech in these later cars ie exclude the FGX for it ain't tech heavy as we all know lol but other brands are obviously.
I'll put out some feelers see if I can get any intel.

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by FTE217

I can't explain it but these companies have changed something

That is my feeling as well, something has definitely changed in the past I would say 24 to 36 months. And on line feedback seems to support that something has changed.

Many reviews saying, 'used to be great but not any more'.

Originally Posted by FTE217

I'll put out some feelers see if I can get any intel.

Would be great to see if anything emerges. Someone would know what is going on.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by FTE217

Tech and batteries I should have quoted like 2010 on for they have ramped up alot more in all due repsect to the BF that I love by the way.....

Its a puzzling question re these batteries as mentioned.
The Sprint I bought new 2016, that battery lasted no more than 4yrs.
I was like WTF this is not right but having done some research I was told thats the norm.
I can't explain it but these companies have changed something let alone as mentioned the tech in these later cars ie exclude the FGX for it ain't tech heavy as we all know lol but other brands are obviously.
I'll put out some feelers see if I can get any intel.

Only just replaced the original battery in my Sprint, was still going strong but just did it as a preventative measure.
Quite often my car would sit for 4 weeks between starts too.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

That is my feeling as well, something has definitely changed in the past I would say 24 to 36 months. And on line feedback seems to support that something has changed.

Many reviews saying, 'used to be great but not any more'.




Would be great to see if anything emerges. Someone would know what is going on.

Probably a cost reduction change that is now biting them in the ****, and all those cost savings are being burned through warranty claims and damaged business rep. Bravo if that is the case

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Probably a cost reduction change that is now biting them in the ****, and all those cost savings are being burned through warranty claims and damaged business rep. Bravo if that is the case

Standard accountant trick, the first thing they do is say we need to reduce our inventory, reduce our production costs and increase our prices!

Then all your customers go to competitors because they call and you go I don't have 67EF MF in stock and when I do I've replaced them all under warranty

Automotive aftermarket lives and dies on availability, if you're in the ball park on pricing but you always have it on the shelf and you can get it to them in a reasonable time frame, you'll be the first call.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Standard accountant trick, the first thing they do is say we need to reduce our inventory, reduce our production costs and increase our prices!

Then all your customers go to competitors because they call and you go I don't have 67EF MF in stock and when I do I've replaced them all under warranty

Automotive aftermarket lives and dies on availability, if you're in the ball park on pricing but you always have it on the shelf and you can get it to them in a reasonable time frame, you'll be the first call.

Bean counters can be truly stupid sometimes. You could literally post hundreds of examples of cost cutting ending up costing more than the money initially saved, through warranty claims or loss of business due to the product durability going south.

[Tassie f100]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Bean counters can be truly stupid sometimes. You could literally post hundreds of examples of cost cutting ending up costing more than the money initially saved, through warranty claims or loss of business due to the product durability going south.

I guess its all about getting a balance between longevity and selling replacement parts.I am sure a manufacturer can make a car that will last for half a million kms or more,but what does that do to ongoing car sales.Same with batteries and other consumables

[FTE217]

Originally Posted by XR Martin

Only just replaced the original battery in my Sprint, was still going strong but just did it as a preventative measure.
Quite often my car would sit for 4 weeks between starts too.

your one of those lucky % ones as we're talking about.
Mine has sat longer that yours at times.
I'd take it for a run as you do put it back to bed, trickle it now and then.
If mine was going strong like yours I wouldn't have bothered in your case till I could sense my starts starting to sound that struggle in cranking over.

[Tassie f100]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Standard accountant trick, the first thing they do is say we need to reduce our inventory, reduce our production costs and increase our prices!

Then all your customers go to competitors because they call and you go I don't have 67EF MF in stock and when I do I've replaced them all under warranty

Automotive aftermarket lives and dies on availability, if you're in the ball park on pricing but you always have it on the shelf and you can get it to them in a reasonable time frame, you'll be the first call.

Availability and reliable delivery are the top 2 then price.If you can deliver a good product now,not tomorrow or next week you will almost certainly have your name at the top of the customers supplier list.Most don’t fret about price,they just want the job done and out the door as soon as possible

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Tassie f100

Availability and reliable delivery are the top 2 then price.If you can deliver a good product now,not tomorrow or next week you will almost certainly have your name at the top of the customers supplier list.Most don’t fret about price,they just want the job done and out the door as soon as possible

Bingo - think of a car on the hoist, then when they call tell them you can have it tomorrow and see what they say, it'll sound like a reverse alarm on a truck

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Bean counters can be truly stupid sometimes. You could literally post hundreds of examples of cost cutting ending up costing more than the money initially saved, through warranty claims or loss of business due to the product durability going south.

Finding one who can see further than a profit and loss statement on a piece of paper in front of their face a challenge, its evident when you get them come through from other industries and some of the 'low hanging fruit' changes they initially want to make will see your customers drop you like a dog turd.

Sure there will be good ones out there, but in the five years I was with my previous employer, the 10 accountants that came through there was one good one.

One of them cut our stock on hand so I countered it by spending $400,000 on air freight grabbing stock from everywhere and the company was wearing it, wouldn't have happened if they spent half of that in stock.

[arm79]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Bean counters can be truly stupid sometimes. You could literally post hundreds of examples of cost cutting ending up costing more than the money initially saved, through warranty claims or loss of business due to the product durability going south.

Not necessarily. Business and manufacturers run by bean counters can sometimes be incredibly smart. The business would be managed by KPIs and its entirely possible they aren't seeing alot of warranty claims.

If you make the warranty claim system so onerous then people wont bother claiming warranties and probably will just buy another one. Therefore the business KPIs wont actually see an increase in warranty claims.

Dad had an R&J Predator battery in his car. At 15/16 months old (2 year warranty) it would fail to start the car when hot. Slow crank no start, half a crank then a groan and a click or just a groan. But it would start the next key turn.

Multiple tests at R&J said it was fine, load tests were in acceptable range. To me it was dropping a cell or something similar in the summer and engine bay heat.

The last test I took it for it load tested fine. The guy dropped the bonnet and I turned they key and it went "rrrrr-groan-click-click". The guy looked at me and said "I see what you mean, but I'm sorry... We have a claim test procedure and the battery doesn't meet the threshold". At 20/21 months it was sent for recycling and we bought another one.

And yes it had a new starter motor, cleaned the grounds and added a strap. I did it first before even going for the first test.

I read the reviews on Supercharge and some Century and its the same. If the battery load tests fine its not a claim. In some cases they demand it go back to the manufacturer for testing. People need their cars so I can see them scrapping the battery and buying another one.

I've never met XB, but from what I gather he's not one to take this lying down. He can confirm or deny later, but I'm willing to bet there were some extra words exchanged before they swapped the battery for a new one. Which is fair enough, if it felt wronged he pushed for an immediate resolution. I/we'd probably do the same. He also probably lucky he could probably afford to bear the warranty process. But alot of people can't and wouldn't and would scrap the thing and buy new.

I'm sure the buying power SCA have also allows for a more lenient warranty claims. Or if they are like Bunnings, they just throw it away and write it off.

All those warranty claims gone and never registered. Bean counters wet dream. Not only have they lessened the warranty liability by making it harder to claim, they have increased sales. KPIs rule.

On a side note, but semi related... Anyone remember the American woman who sued McDonalds because she badly burnt her lady parts after spilling a hot cup of coffee in her lap?

I'm sure alot of you, as did many many many others, thought "bloody Americans. Suing for anything. Her own stupid fault. Looking for a quick buck".

If you read the actual story of what happened its disgustingly unscrupulous.

As we know food is supposed to be served at certain temperatures to provide safety. Coffee has to be served at a certain temp to ensure that if it is spilled it wont badly hurt the victim. I think the temp is supposed to be 65 deg.

At the time McDonalds instigated free coffee refills for diners. Their bean counters sat down and worked out, by disregarding food safety laws, if they kept the coffee at something like 75 deg it would take longer to cool down, therefore be longer before someone drank it and it they would likely leave the store before getting a refill.

For those who stayed to wait for it to cool they would buy more food to offset the cost of the extra coffee.

They modelled that their would be burning victims and some of them would likely sue, in which case they would pay them off for between $10k and and $20k. But overall the increased traffic because of the free refill incentive and extra product sold from people who stayed longer created a net increase in revenue and profits.

That's what happened to this lady. She got bunt, McSh*t tried to pay her off with pittance that didn't cover medical bills, so she told them to shove it and took it further. Documents subpoenaed during the lawsuit discovered all of this. That McSh*t were OK with knowingly hurting people to make a few extra $$$.

Corporate bean counters are unscrupulous, sadistic, evil scum when it comes to doing what's needed to make a few extra $$$. Never underestimate that.

One of the reasons sociopaths and psychopaths are a great quality in certain leaders.

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by Tassie f100

I guess its all about getting a balance between longevity and selling replacement parts.I am sure a manufacturer can make a car that will last for half a million kms or more,but what does that do to ongoing car sales.Same with batteries and other consumables

It's called engineered obsolesce.

The product will fail shortly after a warranty period.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by arm79

Not necessarily. Business and manufacturers run by bean counters can sometimes be incredibly smart. The business would be managed by KPIs and its entirely possible they aren't seeing alot of warranty claims.

If you make the warranty claim system so onerous then people wont bother claiming warranties and probably will just buy another one. Therefore the business KPIs wont actually see an increase in warranty claims.

Dad had an R&J Predator battery in his car. At 15/16 months old (2 year warranty) it would fail to start the car when hot. Slow crank no start, half a crank then a groan and a click or just a groan. But it would start the next key turn.

Multiple tests at R&J said it was fine, load tests were in acceptable range. To me it was dropping a cell or something similar in the summer and engine bay heat.

The last test I took it for it load tested fine. The guy dropped the bonnet and I turned they key and it went "rrrrr-groan-click-click". The guy looked at me and said "I see what you mean, but I'm sorry... We have a claim test procedure and the battery doesn't meet the threshold". At 20/21 months it was sent for recycling and we bought another one.

And yes it had a new starter motor, cleaned the grounds and added a strap. I did it first before even going for the first test.

I read the reviews on Supercharge and some Century and its the same. If the battery load tests fine its not a claim. In some cases they demand it go back to the manufacturer for testing. People need their cars so I can see them scrapping the battery and buying another one.

I've never met XB, but from what I gather he's not one to take this lying down. He can confirm or deny later, but I'm willing to bet there were some extra words exchanged before they swapped the battery for a new one. Which is fair enough, if it felt wronged he pushed for an immediate resolution. I/we'd probably do the same. He also probably lucky he could probably afford to bear the warranty process. But alot of people can't and wouldn't and would scrap the thing and buy new.

I'm sure the buying power SCA have also allows for a more lenient warranty claims. Or if they are like Bunnings, they just throw it away and write it off.

All those warranty claims gone and never registered. Bean counters wet dream. Not only have they lessened the warranty liability by making it harder to claim, they have increased sales. KPIs rule.

On a side note, but semi related... Anyone remember the American woman who sued McDonalds because she badly burnt her lady parts after spilling a hot cup of coffee in her lap?

I'm sure alot of you, as did many many many others, thought "bloody Americans. Suing for anything. Her own stupid fault. Looking for a quick buck".

If you read the actual story of what happened its disgustingly unscrupulous.

As we know food is supposed to be served at certain temperatures to provide safety. Coffee has to be served at a certain temp to ensure that if it is spilled it wont badly hurt the victim. I think the temp is supposed to be 65 deg.

At the time McDonalds instigated free coffee refills for diners. Their bean counters sat down and worked out, by disregarding food safety laws, if they kept the coffee at something like 75 deg it would take longer to cool down, therefore be longer before someone drank it and it they would likely leave the store before getting a refill.

For those who stayed to wait for it to cool they would buy more food to offset the cost of the extra coffee.

They modelled that their would be burning victims and some of them would likely sue, in which case they would pay them off for between $10k and and $20k. But overall the increased traffic because of the free refill incentive and extra product sold from people who stayed longer created a net increase in revenue and profits.

That's what happened to this lady. She got bunt, McSh*t tried to pay her off with pittance that didn't cover medical bills, so she told them to shove it and took it further. Documents subpoenaed during the lawsuit discovered all of this. That McSh*t were OK with knowingly hurting people to make a few extra $$$.

Corporate bean counters are unscrupulous, sadistic, evil scum when it comes to doing what's needed to make a few extra $$$. Never underestimate that.

One of the reasons sociopaths and psychopaths are a great quality in certain leaders.

Fantastic post, I'll put in my two cents in on KPI's as a former manager of a sales team.

I've turned exploiting poorly thought out KPI's into an artform and I do it to make examples out of stupid KPI's to show why they don't work, one the big wigs wanted to implement at my previous employer was 'answer the phone within four rings'.

They can't even measure how many rings before someone answers the phone, all they can measure how long the phone call was and the phone number who called, not how long it took you to answer when it starts ringing though.

Yeah I can answer your phone within four rings, that you can't measure and I can just go:

I'll give you a call back, give me your contact details
I'll give you a call back, give me your contact details
I'll give you a call back, give me your contact details
I'll give you a call back, give me your contact details
I'll give you a call back, give me your contact details

Or the other one was 'no emails in the inbox at the end of the day', so you could just give people the run around to 'action' their email by not answering what they asked, then wait for them to contact you again and it bought time and also got the email out of the inbox - this was a real scenario that happened and I clipped one of my staff for doing this.

You've met the KPI's they've set, you've ****ed off customers but the person measuring you on those KPI's is happy, but its caused significant damage to the companies reputation with its customers.

The reason emails were hanging around in the inbox was it required more information from other staff in the business.

If you're going to set KPI's then they've got to be actually measurable and have proper context around it, rather than have 'answer the phone within four rings', maybe the KPI should be 'answer customer enquiry in full within a single contact, whether via phone, email or in person'.

That way the first time someone contacts you, they've received everything they want to know, in full, in the one phone call, email, walk in over the counter etc - this is a much better thing to measure, if the figures go poorly then you start investigating why your staff are unable to answer customer inquiries in a single contact.

Rather than 'no emails in the inbox at the end of the day', further clarify and have 'no customer purchase orders in the inbox at the end of the day', that way sales staff are prioritising customer orders and getting them into the system, then with the information requests you can respond to them, tell them you're chasing it up and will be in contact when you get further information then leave it in the inbox so no one forgets about it.

Those few points above come under a value of being 'easy to deal with', you're getting your customers sorted quickly and efficiently, if every time you deal with a business and you get everything you want done quickly and with minimum fuss, it naturally becomes your first go to option.

Ideally you don't create a scenario with a lack of information available to a customer, where they can't figure out if thats what they need which ends up encouraging them to call or email for information requests in the first place but that's another story - and an expensive one because it means you need to add resources in the form of a human, and humans have to be paid money, they get sick, sometimes they're allowed to take paid holidays or even reproduce and take ages off work.

The other side of poorly thought out KPI's is it creates a horrible scenario, things like bankers opening up bank accounts for children or dead people, police officers blowing in their own breathalyzers to get numbers up etc, have a read of this article about this:

https://www.smh.com.au/business/work...12-p4zl29.html

Or you get situations where people become ruthless towards colleagues, if you want to start measuring my performance only on X, Y and Z, then I'm going to drop A through to W that you aren't measuring me on that I'm doing - so I won't help the other sales staff and I'll start taking interstate customers sales and starve the rest of the crew of numbers on paper, its encouraging me to be a ruthless ***** rather than having an 'open door' policy where I encourage other staff to approach me when they need help.

One of my staff members worked at a lingerie store prior, which set KPI's on what the average sale figure has to be, a nervous woman came into the store and was keen on lingerie but had body image issues and was real nervous, she spent time with her and helped her, made her feel confident and in the end the customer bought some lingerie, but because the value of what the customer bought was on the low end, it pushed the average sale value down for the day and she got absolutely reamed for it, basically she should have told this woman to **** off and leave rather than get her comfortable enough to try on clothes and buy something she liked

The other side of that was they were comparing average sale values between their shops in different suburbs, one was the premier location in Highpoint Shopping Centre, and Broadmeadows Shopping Centre kept copping **** over lower sales figures in comaprison, one is the premier shopping district of the entire Western suburbs of Melbourne in their flagship store and the other store is a normal store in a low socioeconomic suburb, comparing Apples with Durians.

What you talk about with the warranty KPI and creating a policy that puts road blocks in the way to processing warranty claims is absolutely spot on, it also takes away discretion from the sales staff, there's no point paying for humans when you've taken away the main benefit that humans provide - discretion and initiative.

That scenario with the battery dropping a cell intermittently, they saw there was an issue, they could push it further, they don't just say nah i can't replicate it on paper so no dice.

On cheap low cost 'commodity' items, I'd just write it off and give them another, not really worth fighting over something a customer paid $250-$1000 for, another scenario on a low cost commodity item, we were supplying faulty goods, we had 37x failures, one failure caused a fuel leak in a vehicle in combat operations, required a lot more thorough investigation and a report.

The thing is though, the customer had contacted us all 37 times over a period of 4 years, but there was a stupid warranty process so it went nowhere, they wouldn't send the physical goods back, so the sales team just threw their hands up in the air, even though they sent detailed photos and we had other faulty product on the shelves.

There was also road blocks in the form of the people responsible for it, the quality controller refused to look at it because 'he was responsible for manufactured goods, see the category manager', then the category manager turns around and said 'I'm not responsible for quality control, see the quality controller' - you have strict processes in place but then very vague responsibilities.

I still replaced them and got them replacements ASAP, technically if I followed the process I should have just refused but I'd like to keep my customers, then I was the one who created an inwards goods inspection from that particular supplier to catch it on our end, before they even went onto our shelves rather than the customer catching it on theirs, sure its not my responsibility, but I still did it, called initiative and drive which is the only benefit to having a human collecting a wage from a business so you want to encourage that.

Some of it depends on the customer too, if you know they're constantly abusing it then you can use discretion and take **** further, but 99% of people are doing the right thing from my experience.

If I was in the position with XB GS 351 Coupe coming in and bringing product in, first time meh have another one, second time I'd be investigating further but not punishing him for it, give him another on the spot, lets look a bit deeper than on the surface and keep an eye on other warranties coming in from these products, we want to look for trends, find information about what cars they're in, how those cars are used, compare it to the same product in the same cars from other brands etc. If you're a wholesale distributor and spending that much coin with a supplier like SCA does with Century, SCA are the ones who starts dictating to Century how they will handle warranties on their product that SCA returns.

Where you'd want to tread carefully are where there's supplier agreements in place with a ridiculous compensation agreement, your customer buys off you at a contract price, but if it fails within a warranty period, you have to compensate them at their full retail price they sell to their customers, as well as pay labour claims, then you investigate every single thing they send back.

You sell it to them at $12 but you need to refund them $120 + pay $200 in a labour claim, you don't give an inch to this customer at all - you investigate every single warranty claim thoroughly and reject every single one you can.

Another customer had a no fault warranty agreement contract - they'd send something back for warranty and you'd send them out another, they'd even send you request for credit paperwork and a nice excel spreadsheet with failures.

Some of the sales staff were trying to knock them back on warranties even though there is a no fault warranty contract in place between customer and supplier, because the sales policy was customer MUST return the goods.

That'll be $300 for my consultation, thanks.

[Bossxr8]

TLDR lol.

Nah you make some interesting points there Franco. Business's can be so short sighted sometimes.

Heard today with new gen Ranger launch they are actively trying to nip quality issues in the bud, even if it means lost production. It's all about getting it right from the get go, and not letting issues get to the customer. Seems like the culture is actually starting to change, because it used to be a short sighted vision of building as many cars as possible and worry about QC later.

The failed Explorer launch light a fire under the company, because it was a disaster and the resulting recalls cost the company hundreds of millions. Might have been a blessing in disguise. Feedback from Thai dealers has been overwhelmingly positive on the vehicles they have received so far, so so far its looking good.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

TLDR lol.

Nah you make some interesting points there Franco. Business's can be so short sighted sometimes.

Heard today with new gen Ranger launch they are actively trying to nip quality issues in the bud, even if it means lost production. It's all about getting it right from the get go, and not letting issues get to the customer. Seems like the culture is actually starting to change, because it used to be a short sighted vision of building as many cars as possible and worry about QC later.

The failed Explorer launch light a fire under the company, because it was a disaster and the resulting recalls cost the company hundreds of millions. Might have been a blessing in disguise. Feedback from Thai dealers has been overwhelmingly positive on the vehicles they have received so far, so so far its looking good.

TLDR Franco is glad he's out

I do my best work when I'm in my 'office'

Yep, the only difference there is you're doing the same quality control work, its just being done before it gets to a customer, rather than afterwards, the process is still there its just been shifted to a point where you aren't damaging your brand.

My saying is don't give people a reason to start looking, when you give someone the ****s enough thats when they start looking for alternatives/your competitors.

Century has given a lot of us in this thread a reason to go looking into other product.