Has your ZF milkshaked poll - POST 2012 ONLY

[Mechan1k]

Originally Posted by imamuckypup

mine was mid 09 and no mention of a recall to me

Have a look through JR's XR8 thread in the show n shine section. I think there were details in there.

[imamuckypup]

a quick phone call to ford and yes my car is on the need to swap radiator over list
see how I go

[Mercury Bullet]

And if you paid for a transmission replacement send the receipts into Ford.
You should get reimbursed. At least for parts anyway, they may ask you to pay for labour if it was out of warranty.

[Blem]

My F6 is 08. Runs an air cooler with a Deraile bypass thermostat which opens fully at 83c. My cooler has a fan which only turns on at 87c & has only ever done at the track mainly on return to the pits. May have turned on once or at most twice in heatwave temps during road use.
I have a light which shows when the fan turns on. Other than that I have no ZF temps monitoring but it's fair to say it could almost do without any cooling except for major crawling in very heavy traffic on a hot day & track days.

Interesting that over 10% of respondents of post 12 cars have had an milkshake issue unless I read that wrong.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Blem

Interesting that over 10% of respondents of post 12 cars have had an milkshake issue unless I read that wrong.

Unfortunately, the poll is not reliable. At least 3 of the 'yes' votes are v8's, which don't run the heat exchanger, and one is early 2012. Not sure on the legitimacy of lNate's vote.

I'd say its running at closer to 0% failure for post 2012 cars.

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Originally Posted by SensationFG8

To be fair Silver Ghia I think gmoughton is using optimal with reference to fuel economy, at least this is the way I read the post.

EG the trans needs to get to at least 30 degrees and from there it's running in a mode that is optimal for fuel economy.

Obviously the transmission will work at lower temperatures than 30 degrees. If it didn't work at lower temps we'd be stuffed on a cold morning in Melbourne.

Looking at the posts it seems the absolute minimum operation temperature is -20, ie if I start it on a cold day in Europe the transmission will function and not be completely frozen.

The minimum temperature the transmission needs to get good fuel economy and be operating normally is 30 degrees. If it drops below that the trans will try to heat itself up to get itself to at least 30 degrees. I guess the only caveat here is ZF didn't state in the email that 30degrees was for optimal fuel economy, however, this is the temp they stop actively heating the transmission via their warmup strategy. The interesting thought I have here is what is the warmup strategy and can that cause premature wear of the transmission if over used? If your cooler is so good the temps drop under 30 and this strategy kicks in a lot does that cause more wear?

Thanks SensationFG8, Finally someone gets it

In answer to your interesting thought, The warm up strategy is simply using torque convertor slip to heat the trans fluid, from the monitoring I have done it takes 2-5 minutes (depending on ambient temp) of driving to get the ZF6 to 30C, torque convertor slip is also used extensively throughout the operation of the trans to smooth gear changes etc, the extra few minutes are here nor there, put your trans in perf mode and you will see it in action, it will not display perf on the dash until the trans gets to 30C.

I have monitored my ZF6 in ambients of 0 - 43C for over a year now and have never seen the fluid temp drop, it always continues to climb at a steady and stable rate until reaching its max temp, on average that temp is between 45 - 65C, depending on distance travelled and ambient temp, the ZF6 self monitors its fluid temp and looks for steady temps once over 30C, it does not look for any specific operating temp above that, so it is happy operating at any temp, but the lower the better within that range, unless it reaches its max of 120C when it will go into "hot mode" to protect itself.

Please read my posts in the thread link below showing extracts from my Ford Workshop Manual, Trans Section, which outlines in detail what I have been trying to explain here, I am getting pretty tired of trying to get my message across when people just need to read what I have posted previously.

Thank goodness someone (SensationFG8) has finally got it

I have posted my monitoring results and much more info here, includes a poll,https://fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11441275
For those who are interested.

Regards, George

[GO FURTHER]

Originally Posted by gmoughton

put your trans in perf mode and you will see it in action, it will not display perf on the dash until the trans gets to 30C.

I can put my car in perf mode from the moment I drive off, starting from cold in the morning, and perf mode will display on the dash immediately, so I don't agree with this.
And my trans temp is less than 30C, as I am able to monitor it on my XCAL4.

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Originally Posted by BAXRSIX

I can put my car in perf mode from the moment I drive off, starting from cold in the morning, and perf mode will display on the dash immediately, so I don't agree with this.

What temp below 30C? Different car, different set up?

I can only go by what my 2007 BF11 ZF6 does and I have an air/oil cooler.

[arronm]

You know what they say



It's a bit like this George

[GO FURTHER]

Originally Posted by gmoughton

What temp below 30C? Different car, different set up?

I can only go by what my 2007 BF11 ZF6 does and I have an air/oil cooler.

Temp = 10 - 15C

All FG's go into perf mode from cold start.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by gmoughton

What temp below 30C? Different car, different set up?

I can only go by what my 2007 BF11 ZF6 does and I have an air/oil cooler.

so all your 'knowledge' and 'advice' to people with latest model cars, is based off a 10yr old car?

you think that because your car runs a heat exchanger, that nothing has changed and your findings are still relevant?

you also have a sample size of 1, as far as your monitoring goes.

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Originally Posted by BAXRSIX

Temp = 10 - 15C

All FG's go into perf mode from cold start.

Ok, so your trans is happy running at 10-15C.

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Originally Posted by prydey

so all your 'knowledge' and 'advice' to people with latest model cars, is based off a 10yr old car?

you think that because your car runs a heat exchanger, that nothing has changed and your findings are still relevant?

you also have a sample size of 1, as far as your monitoring goes.

My knowledge and advice is based on verifiable info or taken from my Ford Workshop Manual, and a ZF6 is a ZF6 whatever age of car it's in.

I don't have a heat exchanger, I removed the heat exchanger and installed an air/oil cooler, what changed was I have no risk of "Milkshake" and trans is running cooler, why would my findings not be relevant to the majority of Falcons with air/oil coolers installed?

It's a sample of ZF6 monitoring with a typical air/oil cooler setup, there are many other posts of monitoring done by others with similar results in my thread, can only monitor my own car, but is typical of any car with similar setup.

If you take the trouble to read my thread you will see other supporting info similar to mine.

The poll in my thread is also interesting if you would like to take a look.

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Thanks arronm, is getting that way, pretty tired of wasting my time on some of the closed minds here anyway, have said all I have to say here, cheerio all

[arronm]

Originally Posted by Blem

My F6 is 08. Runs an air cooler with a Deraile bypass thermostat which opens fully at 83c. My cooler has a fan which only turns on at 87c & has only ever done at the track mainly on return to the pits. May have turned on once or at most twice in heatwave temps during road use.
I have a light which shows when the fan turns on. Other than that I have no ZF temps monitoring but it's fair to say it could almost do without any cooling except for major crawling in very heavy traffic on a hot day & track days.

Interesting that over 10% of respondents of post 12 cars have had an milkshake issue unless I read that wrong.

Thermostat for the win. I use the same setup except the 80c opening ( thermostat) is in the oil filter sandwich plate and it cools the engine oil

[V8falcons]

ok this will throw a spanner in the works and get a few dislikes im sure.....
i ve done a test with my post 2012 territory (for when i get around to fitting a bypass cooler and it will get one before I tow with it..) and have bypassed the coolant lines to the heat exchanger... just running the trans fluid though it.. still gets air flow,and has been that way for 5 months now...
there is absolutely no difference in performance/temps with the engine or trans...and now I can sleep well at night... if the heat exchanger does fail ill see an oil leak on the floor and that is all..
Previously on my other zf6 cars I have ran a bypass trans coolers... to get the same outcome..again makes no difference to performance/temps...
dont over think the process..

[Sprint Turbo]

Originally Posted by prydey

well, i have read all the threads on the subject, and i still don't believe the problem is that prevalent.

i believe those that are unlucky enough to have failures early on, are due to residual casting sand getting in to the exchanger and acting like sand paper. these would be covered under warranty anyway.

failures later in life are more than likely the result of incorrect maintenance of the cooling system.

i just had my gearbox serviced @ 160000km. no massive difference between before and after except the 'shunt' when selecting first gear whilst rolling to a stop is gone. i fitted a new exchanger at the same time.

i'm aware that many people have bypassed the cooling system with no apparent negative side effects, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. oil temp warm up and stability will be better when cooled via coolant. why else would every manufacturer use this method.

Interesting that you fitted a new heat exchanger. What was the reason behind this? Is it because you think residual sand in your engine block damaged to original one?, because you think later ones are better?, or because you think they only last a certain length of time?

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Sprint Turbo

Interesting that you fitted a new heat exchanger. What was the reason behind this? Is it because you think residual sand in your engine block damaged to original one?, because you think later ones are better?, or because you think they only last a certain length of time?

I was advised by a source at Ford that the reason for failure was residual casting sand getting in to the exchanger. I said, mine hadn't failed in 160000km, and has had 3 coolant flushes so does that mean it won't fail. I was told 'most probably', but if i wanted to make sure, just fit a new one for peace of mind.

Due to personal circumstances, this car now needs to last me many more years so for my own peace of mind I fitted a new one. My car is also one of the first fg's, and the heat exchanger has had a couple of changes over the years so putting the latest one on was another reason. That was the reason for starting this thread and poll, to determine if later ones were better in the failure rate.

I've never said there is no risk, but I believe the risk is extremely small. Lots of things we do in life have risk attached. The chance of you having a crash every time you drive are probably higher than the chance of heat exchanger failure.

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Originally Posted by prydey

I was advised by a source at Ford that the reason for failure was residual casting sand getting in to the exchanger. I said, mine hadn't failed in 160000km, and has had 3 coolant flushes so does that mean it won't fail. I was told 'most probably', but if i wanted to make sure, just fit a new one for peace of mind.

Due to personal circumstances, this car now needs to last me many more years so for my own peace of mind I fitted a new one. My car is also one of the first fg's, and the heat exchanger has had a couple of changes over the years so putting the latest one on was another reason. That was the reason for starting this thread and poll, to determine if later ones were better in the failure rate.

I've never said there is no risk, but I believe the risk is extremely small. Lots of things we do in life have risk attached. The chance of you having a crash every time you drive are probably higher than the chance of heat exchanger failure.

Sincerely hope your luck holds out mate and that the latest heat exchanger is fail proof

I too plan to keep my car long term, sorry for being a pain in the ****, I am an Engineer after all

Regards, George

[Sprint Turbo]

Originally Posted by prydey

I was advised by a source at Ford that the reason for failure was residual casting sand getting in to the exchanger. I said, mine hadn't failed in 160000km, and has had 3 coolant flushes so does that mean it won't fail. I was told 'most probably', but if i wanted to make sure, just fit a new one for peace of mind.

Due to personal circumstances, this car now needs to last me many more years so for my own peace of mind I fitted a new one. My car is also one of the first fg's, and the heat exchanger has had a couple of changes over the years so putting the latest one on was another reason. That was the reason for starting this thread and poll, to determine if later ones were better in the failure rate.

I've never said there is no risk, but I believe the risk is extremely small. Lots of things we do in life have risk attached. The chance of you having a crash every time you drive are probably higher than the chance of heat exchanger failure.

Thanks for your feedback.

Funny how your poll to determine the amounts of failures of latter heat exchangers turn into a ****fight!

I assume now that everyone who was hammering gmoughton about his info about operating temps will now be hammering you about your "source at Ford" about sand in the engine blocks and your statement that the "heat exchanger has had a couple of changes over the years". ?

Does anyone actually have any info about the heat exchanger design changing throughout the years?

Has anyone apart gmoughton got info about the best operating temps for the ZF gearbox? Seems that some people are trying to shoot him down without have any facts to back up what the best temps are.

[arronm]

Ford knew about sand in the blocks, thats why they used turbo oil filters.

[Mercury Bullet]

George, what is your temperature at 240km/h on a -2°c morning?

[richo77]

I have my old 2012 factory exchanger available to anyone that wants to dissect it for research purposes..

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Sprint Turbo

Has anyone apart gmoughton got info about the best operating temps for the ZF gearbox?

its not so much about a specific temp, but moreso about oil temp stability. an air cooler can't provide the same oil temp stability as a water cooled unit. it is at the mercy of the ambient temps, as well as the speed of the vehicle.

while there may be no apparent negative impact for some cars/owners, all manufacturers choose to run oil/water coolers as they have to pass much more stringent testing, which would include a much broader range of conditions.

[mexicov]

I suspect that for most car manufacturers it is cheaper to adopt the standard in-radiator, or engine mounted cooler (as per FG) systems than to mount a separate air cooler in front of the radiator and air conditioner unit as some of us do to eliminate the dreaded milkshake.

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

George, what is your temperature at 240km/h on a -2°c morning?

You still got your licence

Some cool weather monitoring from my thread here, temps are lower, stable and within optimum operating temps.

https://fordforums.com.au/showpost.p...&postcount=555

https://fordforums.com.au/showpost.p...&postcount=400

and here, from old_mate

https://fordforums.com.au/showpost.p...&postcount=413

Much more from mexicov and AGH also in Canberra, if you take the time to read it.

Have also monitored oil temp, engine temp and all other temps and functions of the car, posted in my thread.

Regards, George

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Originally Posted by Sprint Turbo

Thanks for your feedback.

Funny how your poll to determine the amounts of failures of latter heat exchangers turn into a ****fight!

I assume now that everyone who was hammering gmoughton about his info about operating temps will now be hammering you about your "source at Ford" about sand in the engine blocks and your statement that the "heat exchanger has had a couple of changes over the years". ?

Does anyone actually have any info about the heat exchanger design changing throughout the years?

Has anyone apart gmoughton got info about the best operating temps for the ZF gearbox? Seems that some people are trying to shoot him down without have any facts to back up what the best temps are.

my 2007 heat exchanger,

2005

Blocked one

2013
made in China, merely more layers in attempt to improve cooling capacity?

Sorry about the scary pics, any more?

Regards, George

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by gmoughton

Thanks arronm, is getting that way, pretty tired of wasting my time on some of the closed minds here anyway, have said all I have to say here, cheerio all

bump for this

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by gmoughton

You still got your licence

Sure have. Some of us live in the bush.

You do realise there are still open speed limits in parts of this country.

How about 160km/h? Any high speed testing at all?

Some cool weather monitoring from my thread here, temps are lower, stable and within optimum operating temps.

https://fordforums.com.au/showpost.p...&postcount=555

https://fordforums.com.au/showpost.p...&postcount=400

and here, from old_mate

https://fordforums.com.au/showpost.p...&postcount=413

Much more from mexicov and AGH also in Canberra, if you take the time to read it.

Have also monitored oil temp, engine temp and all other temps and functions of the car, posted in my thread.

Regards, George

Right, so you don't have any idea?

[fordomatic]

So over these heat exchanger threads, just buy a manual, much more fun.