Tough Times Ahead

[b0son]

Originally Posted by dmat2391

and I would add that in many cases the Aussie stuff is superior to the overseas stuff.

And in many more, it isn't, but we're expected to pay more (not just more, but substantially more) simply because its made here.

[93EB_SXR6]

b0son, what do you mean remember? It still happens all the time LOL.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by GTPete

The price of land is the killer. How a country the size of Australia has land prices like we do Ill never understand. We have so much available space. Land should be cheap as, in fact every Australian with over 100 years of family history contributing to this countries growth should be gifted a free block of Aussie soil. That will get the place going forward.

Theres plenty of affordable land out there, its just that people only want to live near a major city.

[stevz]

Originally Posted by Gadgetman

People have been saying "house prices too high and it will all come crashing down. They said it before the recession in the 90's and were saying the same thing about the Australian housing market 4 years ago when the GFC hit. Well Guess what??? We're still waiting for it to come crashing down aren't we. I will put it to the sceptics this way. If you had a reasonable deposit now, would you rather buy a house today or in 10 years time. If the answer is today cause it will be too dear in 10 years time well then this theory about inflated prices today is just crud.

The difference is that we are living in a completely different global economic climate than we were 10-20 years ago. The reason we haven't felt the full effects of the gfc is because the government has been covering it up and sweeping it under the carpet. Why do you think they have just raised the debt ceiling? We are headed for an implosion and don't think for a second we are immune to anything. If things keep going the way the are, we will end up a basket case like Greece in no time.

The median property price in Australia is at least 8 times the average wage, yet you think this is affordable? Why are we then rated as having the most unaffordable property in the world?
It is clearly unsustainable and at some point it will have to give. You would have to be rather naive to think that this can go on forever.

[Dmarc]

Our so called representatives in Canberra sold us out long ago. It really p@#ses me off to see the country I love slowly being swallowed up by the globalists, NWO or whatever you want to call it. Anyone interested should have a look at what our scum politicians signed us into with the Lima agreement back in 1975.

[GCRXR6]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Theres plenty of affordable land out there, its just that people only want to live near a major city.

Yeah and a lot of city slickers think country people are feral morons.

[mr smith]

The latest house price rise, the most shocking of all. SMSF yup, let the population have a play with 20yrs of super. Credit must go to the RE industry, good lobbying on their part.
Will end in disaster.

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by mr smith

The latest house price rise, the most shocking of all. SMSF yup, let the population have a play with 20yrs of super. Credit must go to the RE industry, good lobbying on their part.
Will end in disaster.

Yep....Allowing people to gamble on RE with their own Self Managed Super Fund is just askling for trouble.

[mr smith]

I know 2 blokes with about $100K in super who set up SMSF's. Cost about $6k to set up and one borrowed to purchase a house, the other went in with 3 others to buy a factory with no tenant.
The only people making money is the dude who set it up and the RE agents.

[Windsor220]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Theres plenty of affordable land out there, its just that people only want to live near a major city.

Most people need to because of work.

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by Windsor220

Most people need to because of work.

Yes the problem is that the land is cheap but it takes two hours to get to work usually in bad/horrible traffic...Then thers the costs of petrol, tolls in some cases, and other running costs with so much travel....

So even though you get the land cheaper you are still spending money in other areas.

[Express]

Australians are the cause of their own demise. Too many talkers and not enough doers. Add to that unless you are a brain dead sportsman, success and achievement is frowned upon. Do any good in life and the tall poppy syndrome cuts in. Run a company and you are evil.

To have a successful Australian business you need successful people to run it. If it’s Australian it should be run by Australians and full of Australian employees and there lies the problem. To quote a Japanese colleague of mine from 20 odd years ago, Australian workers are for the most, lazy, spend too much time being concerned about what others are doing, don’t care about the company they work for, can be destructive towards their employer, intimidate fellow employees who wish to work, constantly complain, blame others for their failings, want to bring others down to their own level, wish everything to be handed to them, always believe they know better, can’t cope with hierarchy, have no drive, believe they live in the lucky country but make no contribution to it, teach their children to under achieve, look for the easy option, are negative and the list goes on.

To answer saber’s post number 55, if you have the opportunity to work overseas, don’t hesitate, go for it. In the 1980’s when I was in my 20’s I took up an offer along with a few other friends to work as a Civil Engineer in the UK and from there I worked in Canada and the USA before returning to live in Australia. I came home with a completely new attitude where no matter who I worked for I always was working for myself. I learnt the more effort I put in for my employer not only benefited the company but also my own prospects in life. Because of this attitude I became a sort after commodity.

My Brother-In-Law has an Engineering business in Connecticut in the USA. He’s married to my sister and he talks about how much he loves Australia. It a beautiful country, modern but not overdone, has a great social lifestyle, a fantastic climate and he always feels safe when he walks around. The best of the old America he says. He has said he’d never want his children to grow up here as he feels they would be forever muted in life by the Australian work ethic. He has worked here a number of times over the years and says he wants his 2 boys to be proud of their achievements and can never understand why Australians get so down on other people’s success. He believes success breeds success and when he does well, so do those around him. He said Aussies just don’t get it. You can’t have a successful business unless everyone involved puts the effort in, there is plenty of time to play and enjoy the lucky country after work.

A simplified view I know but an attitude adjustment is need here before we can go forward as a successful manufacturing nation. Though I would think, the boat has already well and truly sailed.


.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

Thousands you say, I've worked in mining & construction/offshore oil & gas since 1980, all in WA, and never heard of a "massive" project importing "thousands" of Chinese workers over the top of Australians and I or my two brothers have worked on most of the bigger projects in WA, I'm currently working on the biggest project (Gorgon) this country has ever seen (make's the Snowy Mountain's scheme look small) and one of the biggest in the world and I can't recall ever seeing an imported Chinese yet! Both of my brothers are in mining, one in the Pilbara and the other in the goldfields and they haven't heard of this either.....we all know of 457 visa's being used to fill gaps in the skilled workforce that Aussies won't.......but thousands on the one project? news to me.......

And how did they get them to site? I'm pretty sure thousands of Chinese workers transiting Perth Airport to point's north would have created a stir......

We have plenty of Pom's, South African's, Kiwi's, Yank's, Canadian's and Filipinos working in my industry, all with the same wages and conditions as Australians, and every one of those positions was filled after both the employers and the unions exhausted all avenues in Australia, we wouldn't have it any other way.....

Which project was this and which unions involved? one phone call will easily confirm or deny the claim.....

Well if you knew as much as you claim, you would know the project wouldn’t you? The project is well known, mostly as a notorious series of stuff-ups.
“Thousands” is of course an estimate, but I think it would be accurate given the size of the camps and the numbers I saw. At any given time when I walked in for dinner, there would be at least 500 in the mess, and that’s just at one camp. The project was Chinese, and most of the work was given to Chinese companies. So there was not just blue-collar workers, there were literally hundreds of Chinese “Engineers” as well. Plus the majority of the equipment was sourced from China, so there more Chinese subbies. Then they started mobilising their Chinese operations staff…

As for thousands of workers transiting the Perth airport, the poor sods were working something like 13 week rotations and had to pay for their own flights home. (I'm not 100% certain, but I imagine they were technically entitled to “rest days” to comply with legislation.)

The lie that was sold was that all foreign workers would be paid award wages as for TA’s. What a joke. They were all working through subcontract companies so there would be no way to tell how much they actually received. From what I heard, from people speaking to those that could communicate in basic English, these guys were ultimately receiving only a fraction of the money.
To ensure the union “didn’t lose out” (and I guess for general industrial harmony) the Chinese workers had to be paid up members. The lie in that is that there were of course substantially more of them than would have been required for Australian workers, and at 100%, whereas Australia membership levels can be substantially less.

I'm not a racist. The Mining & Construction industry is as multi-cultural, ethnically diverse, and racially harmonious as they come. I have worked with people from all over the globe, and when I say “Australian workers” I mean the normal mix of (appropriately qualified) people you find on any site.
I have no problem with 457 visas being used LEGITIMATELY to cover SHORT-TERM gaps in skilled labour, at one time the company I worked for imported laggers from Ireland because we couldn’t find them in Aus, and at another we used Korean Welders because with all the O&G projects we couldn’t find coded welders for love nor money. (And whilst I'm on the subject, I will say that those welders from SOUTH Korea were fantastic; highly skilled, hardworking, and took a real professional pride in their work.)

However, over the years, I have seen the 457 system rorted again, and again, and again. Depending on which company, it will generally be a particular country getting the benefit. It happens at all levels, from un-qualified professionals being parachuted into “jobs for the boys,” to unskilled workers being brought to fill basic roles such as TA’s and basic riggers or scaffies.

And here’s the thing, why the **** should I care? WA is doing fine, thanks very much, and I'm doing quite nicely. Cheap imported labour means more money for us, and less pressure on housing and the cost of living.
As I mentioned, it has eased off considerably at the moment, but when things heat up the responsible companies fly in workers from the East. At least that way we are helping the rest of Australia as well.

But you’re right. I should just adopt your “bugger you Jack” attitude towards the rest of Australia.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by Windsor220

Most people need to because of work.

Most people need to because they have mortgaged themselves to the hilt...

You can find plenty of houses/land within 30 mins of Wagga for <$150k.
Now granted in Wagga you wont be earning what you earn in Sydney, but you'll have bugger all mortgage, no parking fees, no tolls.

[Elks]

There is the other obvious thing with the Opening post. Panel beaters or smash repairers are in a declining business.

As the road toll is driven down by various means, so is the number of serious crashes and the even greater numbers of fender benders , which is where the smash guys make there cash. Overlay that with the insurance co squeeze and it's a very tuff business. It's hard for even the best of people.

That said the economy is next to buggered. And I'm not sure how this will get fixed.

[danzvtil]

Originally Posted by GCRXR6

Danzvtil, penalty rates are not a new impost on a business. I've been in the workforce for near 50 years, and penalty rates applied then as they do now. There are many reasons why some businesses are finding the going tough and it's not just wages.

That panel beater to which the OP refered .. what is the REAL reason for his plight. Not enought work? (Quality problem or not enough accidents any more, knocking back work?) Insurance companies screwing him down (cant blame that on wages, that's a mater for the gov to look at) Poor accounting (spending more than he makes)

I see a crash in the solar industry... Solar companies are everywhere at present ... when the market is saturated and sales dry up to a trickle, we will see that industry crash.

Electrical / electronis repair industry is a poor performer as devices are cheaper t replace than repair.

These trusty computers that we are using tonight were a device that we used to upgrade with more powerful parts and software. Nowdays, we toss them out and buy a new kit. Component supply stores are closing. Lost 3 in Rockhampton in recent times.

I invited a builder to give me a quote on a pergola I wanted constructed. He started by crying about the council charges and the need to submit lans for approval and the cost of materials. All negative crap that I already was aware of. I'm still waiting for his quote 3 years later. I have since had a large company from a nearby city do the job.
Unbelievably, I've heard this guy complain of no work!

But yeah, I could go on into the wee hours writing and boring you all with examples. Mainly though it often is simply due to poor management...not changing with the times, not providing GOOD customer service or product, or heaven forbid...not wanting to actually work etc.... etc..et..e..

yeah, Mate, agree with most of what you have to say, some people are just plain lazy and wont chase up business.
I will reiterate my statement about retail penalty rates, 5 yrs ago i started calling on businesses, the owners were, in general only there a few days a week, their staff ran the thing day to day. Now fast forward 5 yrs, those same owners work 7 days a week because paying a 16yo bimbo 50 bucks an hour because its sunday/pub holiday just to punch the keys on a cash register and chew gum, means they will go under.This is a very real and tangeable change business owners face.
I DONT believe cutting back on penalty rates is an attack on workers, who,ultimately loose hours and indeed jobs because their boss cant afford to keep them.
Like you said about electronics repairer, some industries become obsolete, we seem to have this idea that no business should ever fail, workers should be employed for life. That world is gone and is never comming back.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by GTPete

The price of land is the killer. How a country the size of Australia has land prices like we do Ill never understand. We have so much available space. Land should be cheap as, in fact every Australian with over 100 years of family history contributing to this countries growth should be gifted a free block of Aussie soil. That will get the place going forward.

The problem is that SO MUCH land is in private hands, the process of getting it approved for subdivision is often arbitrary and corrupt, and supply is manipulated to maximise profits, with no incentive to speed up the process. Each generation of large landholders effectively reap huge windfall gains at the expense of the current generation of residential purchasers. The State & Local governments ostensibly control this process, but in doing so they simply hand millions in profits to the private landowners.

Take where I live now as a prime example. 40 years ago it was miles out in the bush, zoned rural and good for nothing but growing vegies. So even in today’s money a family would buy several hectares for less than the cost of a suburban block, and start their market garden. Then along comes the government, builds taxpayer funded roads and infrastructure, rezones the land to residential, and suddenly that family is sitting on a million bucks. But they don’t stop there. One of the BIGGEST RORTS is that even though they are sitting on a huge expanse of valuable residential land, they pay NO Land Tax and minimal rates. That’s right, you or I buy 300sqm and don’t build on it straight away, and we’re up for $1,000 a year in land tax plus rates, but the “market Gardener” sitting on millions doesn’t pay a cent.
So he waits, and waits, and waits, until the money on offer is simply irresistible. Of course if you want a higher zoning, or need roads or sewerage extended, you just make a contribution to one of Brain Burke’s fundraisers. Seriously, our council is so ******* corrupt it is sickening.

Even where there is crown land to be released, the government follows the same policy of restricting supply, firstly to maximise their revenue, and secondly because they daren’t undercut the private developers.

Personally, I'm not sure that foreign investors are such a problem. If they buy a property and then rent it out, they may be helping out the family that needs the rental. The demand for accommodation is there either way, in Perth there is simply not enough land released, and not enough tradies.

[danzvtil]

[QUOTE=

He has worked here a number of times over the years and says he wants his 2 boys to be proud of their achievements and can never understand why Australians get so down on other people’s success.

.[/QUOTE]

Exactly! why are Aussies so willing to cut down the tall poppy, someone who has put in the hard yards, placed their nuts on the line time and time again only to be slagged off because their kids go to a nice school, drive a nice car.
Where did this sense of entitlement come from, I hear it all the time "I have little, you have heaps, which means you have heaps at my expense, which is wrong" EH? Usually said by some Centrelink loving 3rd generation unemployed Bogan

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Well if you knew as much as you claim, you would know the project wouldn’t you? The project is well known, mostly as a notorious series of stuff-ups.

But you’re right. I should just adopt your “bugger you Jack” attitude towards the rest of Australia.

So I will ask you again, which project and which unions you claim were paid off, what's your problem sport, name and shame, man the **** up!

Nothing but sensationalist BS.......

And for your information sonny boy, my aim is to prevent companies trying to rort the system, but the biggest headache I come across is twits such as yourself whose aim it is to blow it all out off all proportion and create unrest....

So back up you claims or **** off, you ain't helping anyone!.....

[Miggy]

DJR-351 you on Barrow? I was meant to be there already but it's on hold till more beds come up so I'm stuck in Perth for a while more.

Mining here in WA has been on the decline this year with lots of job losses but I do see it turning around as I can't see China's demand for our recourses declining any time soon they are buying the worlds resources in HUGE numbers not just us but Africa as well as South America.

But construction is booming at the moment with Gorgon, Wheatstone and Darwin. Next year we will have a real shortage of construction workers in Australia IMO. With really big money on offer but this just makes the divide in pay in the country even larger with many people on 150k+ a year bringing the price of products up (just look at the price of cars in WA compared to the rest of aust) yet others struggling with much less than half that.

[BHDOGS]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

So I will ask you again, which project and which unions you claim were paid off, what's your problem sport, name and shame, man the **** up!

Nothing but sensationalist BS.......

And for your information sonny boy, my aim is to prevent companies trying to rort the system, but the biggest headache I come across is twits such as yourself whose aim it is to blow it all out off all proportion and create unrest....

So back up you claims or **** off, you ain't helping anyone!.....

If you had of said do you feel lucky punk well do ya i would of loled hard

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by Miggy

DJR-351 you on Barrow? I was meant to be there already but it's on hold till more beds come up so I'm stuck in Perth for a while more.

Mining here in WA has been on the decline this year with lots of job losses but I do see it turning around as I can't see China's demand for our recourses declining any time soon they are buying the worlds resources in HUGE numbers not just us but Africa as well as South America.

But construction is booming at the moment with Gorgon, Wheatstone and Darwin. Next year we will have a real shortage of construction workers in Australia IMO. With really big money on offer but this just makes the divide in pay in the country even larger with many people on 150k+ a year bringing the price of products up (just look at the price of cars in WA compared to the rest of aust) yet others struggling with much less than half that.

Yep, on the Barrow/Gorgon/Chevron/SLC/KJV etc etc project Lol.....

Funny you should mention accommodation (which as you say is a big problem) the company I work for owns the Pacific Installer accommodation barge that's there, accommodates about 300 I think, anyhow I have to go up and spend 2-3 weeks on it this Saturday, I'm supposed to be on 5 weeks leave but they can't get a replacement for the guy getting off so I got roped in as a temp fix.....

[Gadgetman]

Originally Posted by stevz

The difference is that we are living in a completely different global economic climate than we were 10-20 years ago. The reason we haven't felt the full effects of the gfc is because the government has been covering it up and sweeping it under the carpet. Why do you think they have just raised the debt ceiling? We are headed for an implosion and don't think for a second we are immune to anything. If things keep going the way the are, we will end up a basket case like Greece in no time.

The median property price in Australia is at least 8 times the average wage, yet you think this is affordable? Why are we then rated as having the most unaffordable property in the world?
It is clearly unsustainable and at some point it will have to give. You would have to be rather naive to think that this can go on forever.

Not naïve. Just a firm believer that property prices over the course of time, say from the advent of property sales, have never gone backwards and stayed there. It always over the course of time goes up. Our wages do as well. My salary in the last 20 years has gone up to the tune of 350%. The average price of a house in Melbourne 1993 was 200k its now 500-600k. Looks like its all relative isn't it. Its more the negative discussions such as threads on forums like this one that talk people into not spending. Consumer confidence or the lack thereof is what ****s a country. Nothing else does! Keep the faith brother and all will be well.

[mik]

A good topic, surprised its not in the bar though.

[aualright]

Originally Posted by stevz

The difference is that we are living in a completely different global economic climate than we were 10-20 years ago. The reason we haven't felt the full effects of the gfc is because the government has been covering it up and sweeping it under the carpet. Why do you think they have just raised the debt ceiling? We are headed for an implosion and don't think for a second we are immune to anything. If things keep going the way the are, we will end up a basket case like Greece in no time.

The median property price in Australia is at least 8 times the average wage, yet you think this is affordable? Why are we then rated as having the most unaffordable property in the world?
It is clearly unsustainable and at some point it will have to give. You would have to be rather naive to think that this can go on forever.

It may be said the Feds want to raise the debt ceiling to pay for their promises? That being, removal of miniing and carbon tax, the introduction of a very generous parental leave, not wanting to means test childcare rebates, etc.

Now with property, negative gearing + cheap and unregulated finance would surely have a positive impact on house prices?

Looking at these areas may lessen the odds of an end of the world scenario you are predicting.

****

[BHDOGS]

yup ditch the carbon tax and bring in a parental leave tax on buisness ahhhhhh thats better now were all happy

[Syndrome]

Originally Posted by EF_6

Yep....Allowing people to gamble on RE with their own Self Managed Super Fund is just askling for trouble.

You sound like a former AFF member who is no longer on here.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Gadgetman

Not naïve. Just a firm believer that property prices over the course of time, say from the advent of property sales, have never gone backwards and stayed there. It always over the course of time goes up. Our wages do as well. My salary in the last 20 years has gone up to the tune of 350%. The average price of a house in Melbourne 1993 was 200k its now 500-600k. Looks like its all relative isn't it. Its more the negative discussions such as threads on forums like this one that talk people into not spending. Consumer confidence or the lack thereof is what ****s a country. Nothing else does! Keep the faith brother and all will be well.

whist that may be true, that everything is all relative to us, it isn't relative to the rest of the world, and thats the problem. because the wages and rates and services etc are all inflating all the time, it is now very hard to compete with the rest of the world in any sort of manufacturing field.

[Robdogg]

I'm sure some Americans also said house prices will never fall and then businesses in theirs and surrounding suburbs disappeared and people just walked away from their houses because they couldn't sell them for less money most of us have in their wallets.


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[wrongwaynorris]

As for property values going down it has happened plenty of times before . America 2009 till current , Ireland 2010 till currently , Iceland 2009 till curently , Japan from the late 80's till current . As for the Sydney market , EVERYTHING is atleast double what it is really worth . Come the correction , and it will come ( rich Asians cant and wont buy every property listed in Sydney indefinitely ) I don't really care as long as the government don't use taxpayer funds to bail out the greedy people with 4 negatively geared rental properties and the idiots playing with their SMSF in property . Why should the rest of us bail them out of their greed driven stupidity ?