Chinese Military Build Up - 60 minutes this Sunday

[bungarra]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

you forget history, japan was forced to war because of an embargo from the US.

Is anyone refusing to sell to china yet?



we are talking about invasion , not nuclear capaility or destructionof the country.....

The oil embargo on Japan was because they had already invaded Korea and China and were using chemical and biological weapons in China and also the little incident known as the Rape of Nanking.

The subs are nuclear powered, makes them hard to detect compared to a diesel boat. Conventional torps would do enough destruction to an oil rig, no one said they would resort to nuclear weapons on the forum. China has said in media reports in Chinese and Western media that they are not afraid to go pre emptive tacticla nuclear strike on any nuclear or non nuclear state if it would allow them the advantage and that their nuclear weapons are developed for an offensive not defensive reason.

No one has said that they would invade Australia, it is just a healthy debate with the what if possibilty thrown in. Also, Australian strategic planning has an attack from China in its plans, with and without the use of Chinese nuclear weapons on the Australian mainland. There is also plans based on Indonesia taking a shot.

Most play on the use of SF troops holding and defending key assets like oil rigs, gas platforms, water and energy utilities and also a flash assault on Canberra.

But in the end it is all scenario, as the ballistic missile capabilities of China, they could take out all of Australias major Cities and military installations using ballistic missiles with conventional warheads and still have plenty to spare. That in itself would cause so much hysteria to the average Joe Public, that most would be begging the govenrment to negotiate with the Chinese.

Lets all have a big group hug and learn to enjoy Chinese food voluntarily before it becomes compulsory!!

[My poor XF]

Things would have to go drastically wrong for the chinese to consider any of what you suggest though i agree fully that it is indeed possible and should be prepared for.

The current defense white paper does list china as a potential aggressor but also points out that it's extremely unlikely. The 60 mins story is the only thing contributing to hysteria due to it's dodgy journalism.

[rocketscientist]

I couldn't bring myself to watch 38 odd minutes. Did it amount to anything of substance, or was it the thinly veiled promo for TWTWB that some here have suggested?

[My poor XF]

Originally Posted by rocketscientist

I couldn't bring myself to watch 38 odd minutes. Did it amount to anything of substance, or was it the thinly veiled promo for TWTWB that some here have suggested?

No reference to TWTWB and no substance to the story. You missed nothing.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by bungarra

The subs are nuclear powered, makes them hard to detect compared to a diesel boat. Conventional torps would do enough destruction to an oil rig, no one said they would resort to nuclear weapons on the forum. China has said in media reports in Chinese and Western media that they are not afraid to go pre emptive tacticla nuclear strike on any nuclear or non nuclear state if it would allow them the advantage and that their nuclear weapons are developed for an offensive not defensive reason.

But in the end it is all scenario, as the ballistic missile capabilities of China, they could take out all of Australias major Cities and military installations using ballistic missiles with conventional warheads and still have plenty to spare. That in itself would cause so much hysteria to the average Joe Public, that most would be begging the govenrment to negotiate with the Chinese.

Yes and the US would make China glow in the dark for the next 1000 years if that happened. Because if it were going to go 'all out nuclear' against Australia, we will in fact be well down the target food chain. High value military targets in Japan, the western pacific, Guam and the Hawaiian islands are first cabs off the rank because the military assets contained in those locations pose the greatest threat to China's ability to strike and conquer territory. Refer to what blownvn has said about being under the US's nuclear umbrella.

In addition, there is no way in hell a nuclear powered submarine is more silent than a decent diesel electric boat. The acoustic signature of a nuke boat is distinctive and they are always 'on the boil' which gives off other tell tale signs (such as heat from the steam plant). A DE boat by comparison can run very efficiently, because they can run on batteries when they need to which of course is almost silent. It makes the yanks very annoyed during exercises in fact. A stray submarine may be able to get a shot off against an oil rig or whatever, but in times of heightened tensions and a deteriorating security situation (China's war isn't just going to instantly happen and catch everyone unawares) force protection measures are stepped up to cover some of those very scenarios you have mentioned.

The fact remains that for any belligerent to make any credible armed lodgement on Australian territory, and hold it for that matter, they would pay a very high price. If they can even get here that is.

[JK EX CHASER]

China is our friend,I wonder if a journalist from 60 minuets will do a story like that.

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by JK EX CHASER

China is our friend,I wonder if a journalist from 60 minuets will do a story like that.

Use the word "journalist" with a grain of salt when it comes to the
'presenters" of 60mins these days.

[Paxton]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

Use the word "journalist" with a grain of salt when it comes to the 'presenters" of 60mins these days.

My thoughts exactly. Kerry Packer would be rolling in his grave.

I gave up on Channel 9 in general when they decided to put Peter 'the lisp' Overton into the Six o'Clock news chair in Sydney. Sixty Minutes hasn't really been itself for about ten years, and it isn't even a shadow of its former self now. Scaremongering is best left to the hosts of ACA and TT. It is little wonder why it isn't rating.

[Jim Goose]

The subs are nuclear powered, makes them hard to detect compared to a diesel boat. Conventional torps would do enough destruction to an oil rig, no one said they would resort to nuclear weapons on the forum. China has said in media reports in Chinese and Western media that they are not afraid to go pre emptive tacticla nuclear strike on any nuclear or non nuclear state if it would allow them the advantage and that their nuclear weapons are developed for an offensive not defensive reason.

Actually China has never stated it would ever use nuclear weapons in a pre-emptive strike...

But in the end it is all scenario, as the ballistic missile capabilities of China, they could take out all of Australias major Cities and military installations using ballistic missiles with conventional warheads and still have plenty to spare. That in itself would cause so much hysteria to the average Joe Public, that most would be begging the govenrment to negotiate with the Chinese.

China only poses Ballistic missiles, not ICBMs..... none of their land based missiles would reach here.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Paxton

My thoughts exactly. Kerry Packer would be rolling in his grave.

Funny enough 60 minutes was meant to be a 60 minute show that would wrap up the weeks news for Kerry.

At the end of the day he wouldn't care as long as it rates.

[JC260]

Originally Posted by bungarra

RAAF Darwin for one thing, with the following units: •No 396 Expeditionary Combat Support Wing
•No 321 Expeditionary Combat Support Squadron
•No 92 Wing Detachment Darwin - surveillance and response
•No 44 Wing Detachment Darwin - air traffic control
•No 13 (City of Darwin) Squadron - Air Force Reserve
•No 1 Airfield Operations Support Squadron Detachment Darwin - airfield engineering
•No 3 Combat Support Hospital Detachment Darwin
•No 114 Mobile Control and Reporting Unit Darwin - radar operations

Nice group to take out especially 92 Wing.

Ok cool, you can copy and paste from the defence website.

So in terms of RAAF assets, we're basically talking about 2 P-3 Orions from 10/11SQN (part of 92WG & depending on rotation) detached from home base in Adelaide on OP RESOLUTE... not much hardware there.
They'd possibly take a few non-combat personnel, but nothing vital to our nations defence... IF they got that far.

RAAF Tindal is well over 300ks away and 75SQN (F18's) would be up in the air, out of harms way and on their way to 'greet' our visitors.

Canberra (ADF HQ) are well aware of the threats, personnel, equipment (and more importantly it's serviceability) that our neighbours have and there are measures in place during stand down periods IE christmas.
You need to give the ADF a bit more credit mate, we're not a bunch of muppets.

[Pearly]

I remember being told in school when in year 7 (about 15 years ago) not to watch stupid shows like 60 mins, and why... and I haven't since.

I can't believe people still do.

[bungarra]

Originally Posted by JC260

Ok cool, you can copy and paste from the defence website.

So in terms of RAAF assets, we're basically talking about 2 P-3 Orions from 10/11SQN (part of 92WG & depending on rotation) detached from home base in Adelaide on OP RESOLUTE... not much hardware there.
They'd possibly take a few non-combat personnel, but nothing vital to our nations defence... IF they got that far.

RAAF Tindal is well over 300ks away and 75SQN (F18's) would be up in the air, out of harms way and on their way to 'greet' our visitors.

Canberra (ADF HQ) are well aware of the threats, personnel, equipment (and more importantly it's serviceability) that our neighbours have and there are measures in place during stand down periods IE christmas.
You need to give the ADF a bit more credit mate, we're not a bunch of muppets.

JC260, it is a scenario of possibility and this one below is a text book scenario that was used in The White Paper planning and I know the ADF aint a bunch of muppets, a common pommie military term. If you are current or former ADF, you would know that Tindal and every other defence base is a ghost town over Christmas and New Year. But it wouldn't take to much in ballistic missile technology and capability which we don't have for the major fast mover bases to be a smoking mess from standard warheads, considering that the standard long range ICBM in China has 4 MIRV's hitting independantly across a base, Tindal, Darwin, Williamtown, Richmond, Edinburgh and Pearce could be hit within minutes of SF teams landing by covert means. 6 MIRV warheaded ICBM's, at Christmas time, Hit Darwin FLB, Stirling FLB with 2 such ICBM's and most of the Naval Capacity is gone. Add the confusion of the civilian poulation. The ADF have plans in place for such issues as well but the ADF is already screaming they are overstretched and more troops leaving than are being replaced.

Know from your words you sound like an ex Pommie army, Quick Question. What does the term NATO get used referred to and stand for??? No smart answer using Naorth Atlantic Treaty Organisation.

One other thing, before you knock the Chinese military capability or possibility in regards to anything including business, read Sun Tzu'a The Art of War, I wis given a copy from a Chinese friend. If you read it with an open mind you will understand the whole diplomacy/military detente pshycology of the Chinese.

Now remember big group hug and eat your rice and sweet and sour pork!!! pml

[onfire]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

I'll watch it, but China has been "building up" their armed forced for 15 years, there's nothing new about it. Their on again off again desire to build a working aircraft carrier is probably one of the worst kept secrets in Asia.

A report I read several years ago now that was published by the Pentagon in the 1990's suggested that China will be in a position to challenge the "strategic primacy" of the US by about 2050.



And it would have to be one of the silliest "invasion scenarios" I have ever heard of. Trust me, we will be safe for a long time.

I think the media has been quickly debunking the entire scenario over the last week.

Straight off the bat, do we really expect an ally of the United States and the United Kingdom to simply lie down? I doubt it.

That, and a single act of war or instigating Invasion:Australia would quickly result in a swift kick up the behind from Uncle Sam.

Oh, and on a lighter note if the Rednecks of Northern Queensland don't put a damper on the invasion, Western Sydney would be sure to give them a good crack shortly after.

[MethodX]

Is the UK the power they used to be though?
And what about France? they have some power.

[bungarra]

Originally Posted by MethodX

Is the UK the power they used to be though?
And what about France? they have some power.

The Uk definately are not the power they used to be. France, would here the word fire and would run around trying to decide if collaboration or surrender is the right thing to do!!

[MethodX]

Originally Posted by bungarra

The Uk definately are not the power they used to be. France, would here the word fire and would run around trying to decide if collaboration or surrender is the right thing to do!!

Come on dont start the French bashing.

[Jimmyd]

Originally Posted by [Tonko]

Free Tibet? Have you read up on the Lama regime? One very rich man owning thousands of slaves. Hell, they didnt even have a plumbing (water and sewerage) until the Chinese brought them down.

Hmmm, so you are saying the Dalai Lama is a bit like the Pope only without the dogmatic disregard to global health.....

Lets face it, Sixty minues went bad around the late eighties, about the time the last real investigative reporter, Yana Wendt, pulled the pin to go to ACA. What semblence of creditbility remaining was lost when a seemingly endless supply of cardboard cutout presenters embarked down a decidedly pugilistic 'interviewing' style chasing the Monday morning papers headline - sensationalisim at its worst.

In a nutshell yes, China is worth watching, as is Indonesia, etc, but realistically our best course of action is to develop closer economic ties within the Asia Pacific Region - whoops, chanelling Paul Keating there......



Cheers

James

[gtfpv]

the world is a different place today . countries rely on each other for food infrastructure defence and profits . muscle these days is pretty much irrelavent , and only needed as a last resort upon hostility .
i can think of much cheaper ways to bring australia down if required . than a simple $1 000 000 missile . but i wont voice it . imagine what millatary and political scientists can think of . and that is without in humane acts .

[pottery beige]

where is the love..??..

[Hardtopxb]

Why would China want to invade Oz? They have plenty of room in there own country. It would cost Billions to invade.It would not be economically feasible to do so. They would cop world condemnation, let alone massive military retaliation (I would hope, and a blind man would see them coming).They are already doing us over regarding trading in Minerals/gas, and anything else you can think of, thanks to our pathetic trading policies(sp). Look we have even done scenario's where Indonesia have attackted us, we do these scenario's all the time.China invade Oz Bull----. Just media with nothing else to do..

[max]

Maybe the segment was a cunning ploy to deflate the Oz housing price bubble!

[Hardtopxb]

Originally Posted by max

Maybe the segment was a cunning ploy to deflate the Oz housing price bubble!

Lol..Or perhaps the other way around..

[sbcb]

I didn't think there were any countries left? Thought it was all about global wealth control by super rich and corporates? Politians and nations leaders are just puppets in the show.
- Carl von Clausewitz famously defined war as 'an extension of politics'. Seems to still ring true.

[XWildGT]

what a **** USA couldn't afford to go to war sound like jealousy to me chop down the tall poppy syndrome countries need other countries these days to grow the world is a small place these days thanks to face book LOL

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by bungarra

At the end of the Cold War, it came out, the Russians had contingency plans for invading Australia to cause the US and Uk to negotiate territorial and mineral claims in areas where the old eastern/western blocks met if there was an issue.
1 was for the "Moscow Circus" to be planned to arrive on its usual 3 ships of equipment to do a national tour, but the plan had the 3 ships loaded with Special Forces troops and Equipment to hit Darwin.
The 2nd part was to have a fishing trawler come from Antartic Watrs and A container ship arrive at the same time supposedly from Vietnam that would have SF troops on board. The whole crux of the plan wasn't full on invasion, but to captyre vital infrastructure and military assets to make the US and UK go into panic and negotiation mode. The Russinas were smart enough to pick the best dys of assault, they picked Christmas Day, a time when minimal troops are on bases or on ships, the other was AFL Grand Final day as they believed most Aussies would be busy and not really paying attention.
Sounds like the script for a movie. Red Dawn - Last day in September. They were probably just waiting for Collingwood to win a grand final so the nation would be truly stunned.

Given the number of civilian flights out of Indonesia to Australia, wouldn't be hard to get Kopassus SF troops into any major airport, could even hide a herc along side the civilian aircraft to add extra troops, 600 armed SF troops into Darwin, Perth and Melbourne would cause total chaos and before anyone bags the Indo SF troops, they are trained by the Aussie SAS and US SF teams. If you hit Darwin hard and fast enough, you would be able to grab the RAAF assets there as well. Shame about Tindal being in the middle of nowhere then

Theoreticlly, China is said to have similar plans as the Russians had, and how many could they sneak in as business men in the weeks leading up to an assault. You don't have to control the country, just the parts worth negotiating over. There are already hundreds of sleeper agents in Australia on student visa's. The ultimate question is how many of those are now double agents

See highlighted responses

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by rocketscientist

I couldn't bring myself to watch 38 odd minutes. Did it amount to anything of substance, or was it the thinly veiled promo for TWTWB that some here have suggested?

It was mostly for the Navy to promote the new helicopter platform ships. Wouldn't surprise me if the whole bit was paid for by Defense recruiting

[bungarra]

Originally Posted by JC260

Ok cool, you can copy and paste from the defence website.

Canberra (ADF HQ) are well aware of the threats, personnel, equipment (and more importantly it's serviceability) that our neighbours have and there are measures in place during stand down periods IE christmas.

How come a couple of years ago it took the Navy nearly 24 hours to find a crew at Christmas for rush deployment of an FFG out of Garden Island, she ended up sailing with 70% crew, of which more than half were pulled form other vessels including submarines? Even fuel had to be calculated carefully as fueling wasn't allowed before stand down and still isn't. Try finding a fueller on Christmas, it is bloody hard, especially when they are on leave in Sydney!!

I had friends who had to give up time away from their families after returning from a 6 month deployment because Canberra got its measures so right!!

The average ADF aint a muppet, but the leaders in Canberra well??

集团拥抱，让我们所有吃米饭和鱼头

[flappist]

There was a time when every Australian was required to have a working knowledge of firearms in case we were needed to defend our country.

Now there are fridge magnets and counselling........

[XRDRIFT]

100 bucks says, there wont be any invasion or whatever you call it for the next 100 years....Building a an army, naval fleet yada yada isnt a sign of anything but strengthing your defences. When you start to mobilise troops and ships/aircraft then worry.

Whoever let 60mins air that crappy bit of 'journalism' should be fired, AT the moment, there is a war against the Taliban, not China!!

And please, what has Australia done to intimidate an invasion or any hostile attacks by the Chinesse? Sweet FA...All dumb as scare mongering by dumb *** journos with nothing better to do thinking they going to get the next big break.

Lets worry about drug dealers and criminals and help clean society up rather than worrying about some "So Called possible, maybe, could happen but dont know when" invasion/attack unwanted visit by China...

End rant, where safe and Im not worried about it Back to counting days till I get my license back.....24 and counting