The ultimate question

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by schnoods

Who is to say that the next F6 doesnt get a power upgrade or at least another power undersestimation too?

.

I am, because it wont.

Ive been told by a very reliable source the F6 is to remain untouched.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I am, because it wont.

Ive been told by a very reliable source the F6 is to remain untouched.

I would not be at all surprised if it mechanically remains untouched but gains a badge hot up, meaning they stop understating the present power level once the V8 has a true power advantage. The average punter would have no idea that the F6 now putting out 330 (for example, exact figure is an arguable point) according to the badge in FGII, is actually what it has been doing since the release of FG.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Grip will only be an issue if the driver cant moderate their right foot....

All else being roughly equal if a less powerful car is faster than a more powerful car due to grip issues the problem is with the driver, not the car....

That may be true, but if a more powerful car has no more grip than its less powerful predecessor (that could overcome its grip), it will be no quicker as power modulation on the part of the driver will just bring the power to the levels of the previous model. Power is a great thing but it has to be applied to the ground effectively to mean anything. I have no doubt that the current offerings would perform better if they got more of their available power to the ground more efficiently, it has been like that since the 290/270 days and is more so now with the 315/310 FPV lineup.

Worryingly, I suspect FPV will still offer 245 rubber due to front wheel fitment limitations and their aversion to staggered fitment. The positive is that this is something easily fixed by the end user.

I know my F6 desperately needs some 275 rear rubber, it abuses the 245 way too easily (and I only have 270kw and 550nm). Or perhaps I just need to remove that "Boss motor" right foot and attach a lighter F6 unit

I would hate (or love, not sure) to see what a SC V8 with upwards or 335kw and potentially on the plus side of 650nm could do. It will either need some killer torque reduction in lower rev ranges and lower gears or some big boots to grip the earth. I hope FPV go the big boots!

[flappist]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

I would not be at all surprised if it mechanically remains untouched but gains a badge hot up, meaning they stop understating the present power level once the V8 has a true power advantage. The average punter would have no idea that the F6 now putting out 330 (for example, exact figure is an arguable point) according to the badge in FGII, is actually what it has been doing since the release of FG.

Under no circumstances could they do that. The ACCC would rip their heads off at the toenails if they changed the "advertised power" without actually changing anything irrespective of how much ACTUAL power the engine was capable of generating.

Either the FG or FG2 would be "misleading advertising".

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by flappist

Life, the universe and everything, these eternal mysteries pale into insignificance when compared to the most important question in the 21st century.

WILL THE FG2 GT (coyote) BE QUICKER OVER THE 400m THAN THE F6?

The true believers from the church of octovee are absolutely convinced that their faith with be rewarded in the rapture created by the coming of the new messiah.

The heretical followers of the beast (666) who cast a hex on FPV in 2004 are steeling themselves for armageddon.

So, in the near future, a bog standard FG2 GT lines up against a FG2 F6 and the xmas tree turns green. What happens next.......


N.B. bog standard means original tyres, pump fuel, all accessories fitted to car, absolutely no non factory original driveline components and driven by a normal sized human (80-100kg).

my vote is no . i cant see a small 5.0 litre v8 beating the F6 . even if it is supercharged .

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

my vote is no . i cant see a small 5.0 litre v8 beating the F6 . even if it is supercharged .

Yes... because 4.0l is bigger than 5.0l isnt it...

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by flappist

Under no circumstances could they do that. The ACCC would rip their heads off at the toenails if they changed the "advertised power" without actually changing anything irrespective of how much ACTUAL power the engine was capable of generating.

Either the FG or FG2 would be "misleading advertising".

So rating the V8 as 290, yet the 6T as 270 was not misleading, did they never put them in comparison?

I think you will find it is more of a case that they are allowed to understate a motor (as they have done with the F6 since day 1, Mitsubishi have been doing it for years with the Evo lancer) but they are not allowed to overstate, as they have never done.

I minor tweak of the ECU, gain 5kw on the new motor on the engine dyno but badge it as what it is really putting out (for example 330kw), not misleading here as they are stating what it is doing, just not understating it for the sake of the V8 as they have done previously.

Hope that makes sense, it does in my tired post night shift logic. My point is they have been "misleading" their customers through advertising regarding the F6 power output for years, you know that as well as I do (do you honestly believe my GT had more power than your old F6).

Anyway, a bit off track, getting a bit 6 vs 8 here.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Yes... because 4.0l is bigger than 5.0l isnt it...

i'm happy to be wrong . just a gut feeling i have .

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Yes... because 4.0l is bigger than 5.0l isnt it...

5.4L 4vman..lol gtfpv you must have food poisoning.


IMO the GT should be a pooftenth quicker than the F6; then people have a choice of what power plant and look they prefer.

Either way both will be quicker than any HSV

[burnz]

Originally Posted by Polyal

5.4L 4vman


IMO the GT should be a pooftenth quicker than the F6; then people have a choice of what power plant and look they prefer.

Either way both will be quicker than any HSV

no...5.0

[gtfpv]

why would anyone buy an F6 over a GT if it was slower ?? the GT has V8 , looks better , sounds better , has the iconic name , and is similarly priced as the f6 , why would anyone buy an xr6 over an xr8 ( both simarly priced) or an F6 over A GT . When the v8s get the premium gear and lack nothing on standard features over a 6 . selling at simalar prices once the v8 eclipses the 6 . the 6 will be redundant / or way cheaper . which will bring a differant paraty to the cars . the only differance being economy . which people diont buy performance cars for !!

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

i'm happy to be wrong . just a gut feeling i have .

Ignore the capacities, configuration, and the method of forced induction: the blown V8 will be the quickest of the two. And it won't be a small gap, either.

Originally Posted by Chopped

The faster car will be which ever one FPV wants it to be.

I too agree with this, they won't go to the trouble of getting this new donk without raising the bar a few more notches.

Originally Posted by Chopped

I'm hoping/guessing it will be the Supercharged V8. It's the new kid on the block and will have to impress. (That means beating the F6 and HSV's.)

Well put.

[Polyal]

Oh here we go, get ready for it, just as some people will buy a V8 regardless of its performance (just on sound and feel) other buy a 6 because its just what they like.

If you want to talk about heritage then if it wasn't for one race of the year (which is a null point now that they run different engines to that of street cars!) then the I6 has arguably just as much relevance to the Australian market.

Jeez you 5.4L guys really dont like talking about the I6T or a smaller 5.0L being "better" than your donk.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Oh here we go, get ready for it, just as some people will buy a V8 regardless of its performance (just on sound and feel) other buy a 6 because its just what they like.

If you want to talk about heritage then if it wasn't for one race of the year (which is a null point now that they run different engines to that of street cars!) then the I6 has arguably just as much relevance to the Australian market.

Jeez you 5.4L guys really dont like talking about the I6T or a smaller 5.0L being "better" than your donk.

v8 guys will always buy a v8 regardless . will turbo 6 buyers though ??

[SumoDog68]

While they are at it maybe they can engineer them not to overheat after 3 laps on the track.
(as mentioned in latest Motor mag both GXP and GS suffered that issue).

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

v8 guys will always buy a v8 regardless . will turbo 6 buyers though ??

perhaps off topic but the amount of business the I6T has gathered for Ford/FPV from other segments cannot be written off.

In order to build your business you need to attract new customers, you cannot simple rely on your current base because if you are not growing then your really going backwards.

The F6 has played a far more important role than simply kicking the GT's backside for the past 6 odd years.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Polyal

5.4L 4vman..lol gtfpv you must have food poisoning.


IMO the GT should be a pooftenth quicker than the F6; then people have a choice of what power plant and look they prefer.

Either way both will be quicker than any HSV

Coyote is 5.0l...

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by SumoDog68

While they are at it maybe they can engineer them not to overheat after 3 laps on the track.
(as mentioned in latest Motor mag both GXP and GS suffered that issue).

you see . you are now stating the facts . most v8 buyers dont race . if they do they mod .
ask yourself why people buy turbo 6's

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by Polyal

perhaps off topic but the amount of business the I6T has gathered for Ford/FPV from other segments cannot be written off.

In order to build your business you need to attract new customers, you cannot simple rely on your current base because if you are not growing then your really going backwards.

The F6 has played a far more important role than simply kicking the GT's backside for the past 6 odd years.

enlighten me . cause i cant think of any.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Coyote is 5.0l...

Ok ill explain the sarcastic joke. Of course I know its 5.0

Gtfpv believes the 5.0 wont be quicker than the 5.4, even though its s/c'd, because its a smaller engine.

You quite rightly point out that the 4.0 is smaller than 5.0, and its actually smaller than a 5.4.

So the small capacity argument now is incorrect because as posted above the F6 has been quicker than the 5.4 since day dot.

Now what is interesting is there is no technical reason why the F6 cannot be the same as the coyote, but FPV naturally will want to make the GT quicker as thats how it is "meant" to be. which i believe is the whole point of this thread.

[glavas]

as much as i am a v8 man the i6t can unless alot of power with just a tune and a bit more boost!!! now thats bang for ya buck

[SumoDog68]

I am not trying to have a dig. V8's are great , but turbo 6 is so much more flexible and tunable for everyday person. The only issue is - it does not sound like a V8 , but i would rather torque then noise.
Just to illustrate my point - i went for a test drive with my workmate (who can afford a new car- female who likes driving but not car enthusiast) and after driving G6ET and SS-V her comment was V8 sounds like is going fast but turbo IS going fast.
Maybe Coyote will change the equation?

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Polyal

perhaps off topic but the amount of business the I6T has gathered for Ford/FPV from other segments cannot be written off.

In order to build your business you need to attract new customers, you cannot simple rely on your current base because if you are not growing then your really going backwards.

The F6 has played a far more important role than simply kicking the GT's backside for the past 6 odd years.

That's all good and well but HSV seem to survive quite comfortably with only a V8 and no "boom tish" option...
From a sales perspective the F6 has retained some customers that might have left Ford and gained incremental business too.
The GT has still comfortably outsold the F6 2:1 despite the performance disparity, if the Coyote GT corrects the performance disparity i think the F6's viability is in real trouble unless it becomes a cheaper option than the GT...

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by SumoDog68

While they are at it maybe they can engineer them not to overheat after 3 laps on the track.
(as mentioned in latest Motor mag both GXP and GS suffered that issue).

Huh ??

Overheat ?

Are you referring to the BOSS 302 GS overheating ?
That's a surprise - never heard of any BOSS cars overheating on any FPV drive day or any other track day. Oil temps can get a bit high but have never heard of "over" heating water temp.

Coyote being aluminium all over may dissipate heat quicker, but it will also heat up quicker in the 1st instance......temp "stability" may be an issue like it has been for all LSx engines. Its the instability which can and does vary the power output quite considerably.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Ok ill explain the sarcastic joke. Of course I know its 5.0

Gtfpv believes the 5.0 wont be quicker than the 5.4, even though its s/c'd, because its a smaller engine.

You quite rightly point out that the 4.0 is smaller than 5.0, and its actually smaller than a 5.4.

So the small capacity argument now is incorrect because as posted above the F6 has been quicker than the 5.4 since day dot.

Now what is interesting is there is no technical reason why the F6 cannot be the same as the coyote, but FPV naturally will want to make the GT quicker as thats how it is "meant" to be. which i believe is the whole point of this thread.

NO, he said the S/C V8 5.0 wont be faster than the I6T 4.0l...

Either simple maths alludes some people or some of you are completely oblivious to the fact the Coyote 5.0 in the GT will also have FORCED INDUCTION just like the F6.. BUT has 25% greater engine capacity...

The only difference it the method of stuffing air into it...

[Brent]

There'll be nothing in it IMO.

Traction off the line will probably still be the achilles heel for both cars, and unless there's some serious drivetrain hardware upgrades, surely the torque tags etc will chime-in to make it a very close affair.

These are big, heavy 4 door saloons, and I find it hard to imagine a turbo stomping away from a SC V8, or vice versa on a standing start drag race. Of more interest for me will be rolling start response, eagerness to rev, torque spread, and engine/exhaust note. The whole driving "feel" rather than splitting 100ths of a second down the strip.

We'll know soon enough I suppose.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

So rating the V8 as 290, yet the 6T as 270 was not misleading, did they never put them in comparison?

I think you will find it is more of a case that they are allowed to understate a motor (as they have done with the F6 since day 1, Mitsubishi have been doing it for years with the Evo lancer) but they are not allowed to overstate, as they have never done.

I minor tweak of the ECU, gain 5kw on the new motor on the engine dyno but badge it as what it is really putting out (for example 330kw), not misleading here as they are stating what it is doing, just not understating it for the sake of the V8 as they have done previously.

Hope that makes sense, it does in my tired post night shift logic. My point is they have been "misleading" their customers through advertising regarding the F6 power output for years, you know that as well as I do (do you honestly believe my GT had more power than your old F6).

Anyway, a bit off track, getting a bit 6 vs 8 here.

You are missing my point. It is a legal question not an engineering one.

If they say it is one figure then later say it is something else without changing anything the one of those figures must be a lie irrespective of whether they are both wrong.

The is a HUGE legal difference between being wrong and deliberately stating an untruth.

Legal studies 1.01: The truth is highly over rated.......

[Professor Farnsworth]

plenty of opinions so far, good to see, however this thread is fast turning into a testosterone comparison content.

We will see, when the engine is released.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

That's all good and well but HSV seem to survive quite comfortably with only a V8 and no "boom tish" option...
From a sales perspective the F6 has retained some customers that might have left Ford and gained incremental business too.
The GT has still comfortably outsold the F6 2:1 despite the performance disparity, if the Coyote GT corrects the performance disparity i think the F6's viability is in real trouble unless it becomes a cheaper option than the GT...

The fact that you even say "boom tish" and gtfpv cant even look at the bigger picture is evidence of the "V8 rules all" mentality. Im feeling some Deja Vu here.

Why are you guys so bothered that both will co exists? Its rubbish that the F6 pulls a high percentage of developmental work because stuff all was need to be done (XR6T donor).

The GT can out sell the F6 all it likes, but they are sales that FPV mightn't of had before it arrived. You cannot say that if the F6 was not around then those people would just buy V8's. The owners have come from further than ford diehards, because Ford die hards usually buy V8's no matter what; heaps of examples of that on this site alone.

Hard to argue that the GT with FPV has been doing a good job for the brand, from a performance perspective the F6 has saved them.

I also didn't realize the F6 is the same price as the GT, but it would be safe to say the new GT will be more expensive than the F6.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Polyal

The fact that you even say "boom tish" and gtfpv cant even look at the bigger picture is evidence of the "V8 rules all" mentality. Im feeling some Deja Vu here.

Why are you guys so bothered that both will co exists? Its rubbish that the F6 pulls a high percentage of developmental work because stuff all was need to be done (XR6T donor).

The GT can out sell the F6 all it likes, but they are sales that FPV mightn't of had before it arrived. You cannot say that if the F6 was not around then those people would just buy V8's. The owners have come from further than ford diehards, because Ford die hards usually buy V8's no matter what; heaps of examples of that on this site alone.

Hard to argue that the GT with FPV has been doing a good job for the brand, from a performance perspective the F6 has saved them.

I also didn't realize the F6 is the same price as the GT, but it would be safe to say the new GT will be more expensive than the F6.

If the GT was a better performer than the F6 from the beginning i doubt the F6 would have sold even half of what it has unless it was cheaper...
I bet a large % of F6 customers would have preferred a V8 but wanted the best performing FORD, just look at how many F6 owners on these forums are talking a switch already.
If the new GT out performs the F6 it will harm the F6's viability significantly, its not my wish that this happens at all... its just my opinion based on how i see things panning out... People need to understand this and stop bitting my head off for suggesting it....

Logically there will need to be a reason to choose a F6 over a GT if the GT out performs it, price would be the only thing i can think of... and maybe as Mark has alluded to how well the aftermarket can adapt to either one..