FPV's response to VE

[kinksta]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

This is something i think allot of people need to come to terms with...
As a potential FPV customer next year i wont be spending over 70K on a vehicle.. so big KW cars over that price point don't even surface on my radar, id suggest most people in the market would feel 100+K for a high KW australian made performance vehicle is over the top..
As far as "bragging rights" about one having the most KW's? well there's allways something out there more exotic and more powerful so it doesnt bother me, im more interested in the overall package at my price point.

your right, but yea for bragging rights holden vs ford, holden will have a better performing car than ford (maybe!). which will be a shame.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by kinksta

your right, but yea for bragging rights holden vs ford, holden will have a better performing car than ford (maybe!). which will be a shame.

How do you know? and in what aspect? I don't think anyone can answer these questions till they're driven or tested them back to back, we don't know what effect the extra weight will have we don't even know the weight of these vehicles yet, or how the new chassis drives.
The Ford v Holden model battle is a constant game of leapfrog, it will never change, but i see no reason to panic just because Holden introduce a new model, soon enough Ford will to and so on and so forth....

[[Tonko]]

Originally Posted by ED Classic

There will be a 7 litre GTS with 377kw and 637nm. Wouldnt hold my breath on FPV matching it unfortionatley.

is that sarcasm? because it makes me wonder how you would know this....?

[kinksta]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

How do you know? and in what aspect? I don't think anyone can answer these questions till they're driven or tested them back to back, we don't know what effect the extra weight will have we don't even know the weight of these vehicles yet, or how the new chassis drives.
The Ford v Holden model battle is a constant game of leapfrog, it will never change, but i see no reason to panic just because Holden introduce a new model, soon enough Ford will to and so on and so forth....

dude, if ford stay with the same engines, then it'll be obvious. but your right, who knows which will be better. but for hero status, 7L V8 330+kw!!! does that not sound awesome, plus its standard. i dont think anyone is panicking about it, we just think ford will get left behind again. it is leapfrog tho...

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by kinksta

dude, if ford stay with the same engines, then it'll be obvious. but your right, who knows which will be better. but for hero status, 7L V8 330+kw!!! does that not sound awesome, plus its standard. i dont think anyone is panicking about it, we just think ford will get left behind again. it is leapfrog tho...

If cars werd sold purely on their advertised KW numbers id agree, but id suggest most consumers look much deeper though.
I care very little for "hero status" or pub "bragging rights", im far more secure in myself than to need that.
The F6 is a perfect example of where a heavier less powerful car is quicker and a much better performance car than the lighter more powerful Clubsport.

[Boss 290]

I love these sort of debates...im so bored of looking for disscussions we need more knwoledge about what fpv are doing its all so secretive..how do people get thier information is it reliable or is it assumptions?

[kinksta]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

If cars werd sold purely on their advertised KW numbers id agree, but id suggest most consumers look much deeper though.
I care very little for "hero status" or pub "bragging rights", im far more secure in myself than to need that.
The F6 is a perfect example of where a heavier less powerful car is quicker and a much better performance car than the lighter more powerful Clubsport.

i never said cars were sold on KW numbers, but c'mon aren't you impressed by that type of engine?? and you say you are far more secure in yourself? whats that supposed to mean??? what car do you drive?
the F6 is just an awesome vehicle. but its 6 cylinder not 8 like the clubsport. ford need a car like the F6, but with the 8 cylinder i believe, to properly take on the clubby. ford mucked up having a six more potent than the eight.

[freaky]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

This is something i think allot of people need to come to terms with...
As a potential FPV customer next year i wont be spending over 70K on a vehicle.. so big KW cars over that price point don't even surface on my radar, id suggest most people in the market would feel 100+K for a high KW australian made performance vehicle is over the top..
As far as "bragging rights" about one having the most KW's? well there's allways something out there more exotic and more powerful so it doesnt bother me, im more interested in the overall package at my price point.

spot on dude. my thinking is exactly like yours. Its all about the package. I couldnt care less what the Kw are. Bragging rights like kids in a school yard.

I ordered my phoon based on the overall experience and package. Couldnt care less if a VE clubby has more Kw or a 7l comes out.

I'm sick of this my d%ck is bigger than yours crap.

Amazing how HSV ups the ante and all of a sudden people expect FPV to match it or they are whimps. Its nonsense.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by freaky

spot on dude. my thinking is exactly like yours. Its all about the package. I couldnt care less what the Kw are. Bragging rights like kids in a school yard.

I ordered my phoon based on the overall experience and package. Couldnt care less if a VE clubby has more Kw or a 7l comes out.

I'm sick of this my d%ck is bigger than yours crap.

Amazing how HSV ups the ante and all of a sudden people expect FPV to match it or they are whimps. Its nonsense.

HSV have allways subtly marketed themselves around the "****ing" or "d$%k size" contest, probably because they understand what the average Bogan wants (or come up short)
Those secure in their manhood look deeper....

[kinksta]

hahaha, you guys seem to give up easy. if the VE is the average bogan car, then geez they have stepped up abit. i dont want ford to give up like you guys seem to, overwise our sales will drop. no **** bout the overall package, like derr.... but the direction holden looks to be heading in style and performance, i think alot of people may chose the lion over the blue oval.... and freaky, get back in your standard xt and go away hehehehe

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by kinksta

hahaha, you guys seem to give up easy. if the VE is the average bogan car, then geez they have stepped up abit. i dont want ford to give up like you guys seem to, overwise our sales will drop. no **** bout the overall package, like derr.... but the direction holden looks to be heading in style and performance, i think alot of people may chose the lion over the blue oval.... and freaky, get back in your standard xt and go away hehehehe

No one's giving up, of course we want FPV to continue to improve their cars, they wouldnt have steadily realed HSV in over the past 3 years and finally past them if the product was bad or not continually improved, i havent seen any indications they wont keep improving them either, hell, HSV havent even released their VE range yet for FPV to counter so its all hypothetical!

For FPV to be finally the sales leader there must be more to what the consumer wants in a performance vehicle than just the advertised power numbers though..

[kinksta]

exactly it is all hypothetical. who knows the GTS could have an awesome engine but steer like a truck. it is the overall package thats desired by most. oh and freaky, i know you have a typhoon i was being silly because you sounded like you didnt care about performance hehe. lets hope FPV has something up its sleeve...

yea its all about the package man, all about the package, no way is it about the power numbers.......

[freaky]

Originally Posted by kinksta

exactly it is all hypothetical. who knows the GTS could have an awesome engine but steer like a truck. it is the overall package thats desired by most. oh and freaky, i know you have a typhoon i was being silly because you sounded like you didnt care about performance hehe. lets hope FPV has something up its sleeve...

yea its all about the package man, all about the package, no way is it about the power numbers.......

at least FPV doesnt stick KW badges all around the car like HSV does. Thats what I like about the F6. I dont need shiny 270 badges all around it.

Didnt that 297 badge look stupid. They could have atleast rounded it up to 300

[Boss 290]

Originally Posted by freaky

at least FPV doesnt stick KW badges all around the car like HSV does. Thats what I like about the F6. I dont need shiny 270 badges all around it.

Didnt that 297 badge look stupid. They could have atleast rounded it up to 300

lol yeh how try hard and its a weird number....but whats with boss 290 on the hood decals lol

[4Vman]

I personally feel the badges on the rear of HSV's date them very quickly.
I struggle to tell VX, VY and VZ apart unless i see the badge on the rear..

[kinksta]

Originally Posted by Boss 290

lol yeh how try hard and its a weird number....but whats with boss 290 on the hood decals lol

hahaha great call!!! oh well it could be worse

5.4L
290kw
550nm
V8

now thats a badge lol

[AWD Chaser]

Originally Posted by Boss 290

lol yeh how try hard and its a weird number....but whats with boss 290 on the hood decals lol

290, 297, 6zf, 18", all just numbers... but boss 290 actually indicates that the engine is a BOSS 290Kw... where as 297 can be mistaken for a submodel, rather then power....

all said and done, I would personally rather no numbers and surprise someone... I've seen many XU6's with the 180 s/c badge removed.. as well as XR6T badges gone, and HSV's..... makes you think....although.... you could almost take off the XT badge on the back of the BA's and wonder what falcon model it is.... lol.

Although... I could be wrong and someone in my neighborhood has a nice badge collection...

[Cobra]

GTS? 7 litres? It's dejavu me thinks. I remember late 99 when the VTII GTS came out. I still have the original motor article Jan 00 with it. I remember thinking "why can't Ford biuld something to match this?"

If Holden release such a vehicle, Ford have the 373kw/650nm Blown 5.4L to use. Voila! So, we won't be in the same predicament as we were 7 years ago, but I can't help feeling that way though. HSV will get the jump, and even if we do follow, a lumbering cast iorn blocked, blown BOSS is going to be a lot heavier than an all alloy 7 litre chevy small block. That's gonna hurt overall performance and handling.

[XR Martin]

Its a pity the V8 has to be more powerful than the six. It would be much easier to bump the power of the Typhoon to 350-375kw than to engineer the Mustang's blown 5.4 into the Falcon.
And theres the 100kg+ weight advantage.

[ED Classic]

Originally Posted by Tonko351

is that sarcasm? because it makes me wonder how you would know this....?

Why would it be Sarcasm? Why do you think they will match it? History? {of which there isnt any; well not since the 70's anyway} or do you pretend to know something?

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Its a pity the V8 has to be more powerful than the six. It would be much easier to bump the power of the Typhoon to 350-375kw than to engineer the Mustang's blown 5.4 into the Falcon.
And theres the 100kg+ weight advantage.

Personally I don’t believe the V8 does have to be more powerful then a six.

Unfortunately that changes when the V8 has two letters attached to it but that might just be me.

I think Ford have done well against VE.

I think FPV might have some trouble with E series.

Dropping the R8 a real surprise. If they follow tradition the GTS is some sort of replacement for the R8. Looking at the structure they normally like two sport options and two luxury options, which means the GTS is some sort of up market R8. Hard to image in a way seeing as they spent so much establishing the R8 brand. If this is close then the GTS won't have a 7 litre engine

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by HSE2

Personally I don’t believe the V8 does have to be more powerful then a six.

Unfortunately that changes when the V8 has two letters attached to it but that might just be me.

I think Ford have done well against VE.

I think FPV might have some trouble with E series.

Dropping the R8 a real surprise. If they follow tradition the GTS is some sort of replacement for the R8. Looking at the structure they normally like two sport options and two luxury options, which means the GTS is some sort of up maket R8. Hard to image in a way seeing as they spent so much establishing the R8 brand. If this is close then the GTS wont have a 7 litre engine

Totally agree with you. I didn't know they dropped the R8, but if the GTS is going to take the R8s mantle, then theres no way it will have the 7 litre v8. I remember the VS days where the GTS had the stroker and it was an option on some of the other HSV models. If the 7 litre is to make it to a HSV model, does this then spell a return of the GTS-R?

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by Cobra

Totally agree with you. I didn't know they dropped the R8, but if the GTS is going to take the R8s mantle, then theres no way it will have the 7 litre v8. I remember the VS days where the GTS had the stroker and it was an option on some of the other HSV models. If the 7 litre is to make it to a HSV model, does this then spell a return of the GTS-R?

That’s a theory, a bloody good one at that.

That leaked document showed the clubbie with cloth trim and the rest of the range with leather. Didn't understand the option list so perhaps they have given the clubbie the ability to have more options to fill the void left by the R8 but I am tending not to think so.

The problem with this thinking is that HSV are trading on the GTS name at a cost reduction over its previous limited edition status effectively or potentially robbing the status from which they had built. All speculation I know but they seem to have confirmed two senators so it doesn't leave much else does it?

You would think they would positions the club sport against the GT. If the GTS is now the second string to the sport side of their operation then I guess it will sit above where the R8 left off. This might be where stuff like magna ride and bigger wheels brakes come in??

[BadMac]

Originally Posted by au3 chaser

290, 297, 6zf, 18", all just numbers... but boss 290 actually indicates that the engine is a BOSS 290Kw... where as 297 can be mistaken for a submodel, rather then power....

all said and done, I would personally rather no numbers and surprise someone... I've seen many XU6's with the 180 s/c badge removed.. as well as XR6T badges gone, and HSV's..... makes you think....although.... you could almost take off the XT badge on the back of the BA's and wonder what falcon model it is.... lol.

Although... I could be wrong and someone in my neighborhood has a nice badge collection...

But you cant compare the badges, the Ford one is 290 DIN, ie 285 SAE Kw. The HSV one is 297 SAE ie 305 DIN Kw's. Wish somebody would standardise. Isn't DIN the metric standard, ie the system we should use in this part of the world?

Since when does Boss 290 mean the engine has 290Kw's. It could be its cubic capacity (which would be GOOD!), a model number (many makes use 3 numbers as their model).

Agree that you can't tell the HSV without looking at the badge and even then I'm not sure. But the LS2 badge means something special.

[BadMac]

Originally Posted by HSE2

That’s a theory, a bloody good one at that.

That leaked document showed the clubbie with cloth trim and the rest of the range with leather. Didn't understand the option list so perhaps they have given the clubbie the ability to have more options to fill the void left by the R8 but I am tending not to think so.

The problem with this thinking is that HSV are trading on the GTS name at a cost reduction over its previous limited edition status effectively or potentially robbing the status from which they had built. All speculation I know but they seem to have confirmed two senators so it doesn't leave much else does it?

You would think they would positions the club sport against the GT. If the GTS is now the second string to the sport side of their operation then I guess it will sit above where the R8 left off. This might be where stuff like magna ride and bigger wheels brakes come in??

The Clubbie has either cloth or Leather in Onyx (Black). The GTS and the Signature Senator are leather only. This is from the spec sheet which I saved a copy of before it was removed.

I don't think HSV try to compete with FPV (except on overall sales), they don't match the models, each does its own thing, ie no Turbo 6 from HSV. No GTS from FPV. Clubbie and GT kind of match, but have differences. Does GTP compete with Senator?

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by BadMac

The Clubbie has either cloth or Leather in Onyx (Black). The GTS and the Signature Senator are leather only. This is from the spec sheet which I saved a copy of before it was removed.

I don't think HSV try to compete with FPV (except on overall sales), they don't match the models, each does its own thing, ie no Turbo 6 from HSV. No GTS from FPV. Clubbie and GT kind of match, but have differences. Does GTP compete with Senator?

Which means they might have an option policy for the clubbie.

The GT= Clubsport
The GT-P = R8.

FPV saw no reason to go after sales that weren't significant and when the BA was launched the clubbie and the R8 were HSV's bread and butter.

When the GT-P picked up rear parking sensors as standard the R8 changed spec to include that feature too. The R8 pick up a big brake option FPV counted by making it standard on GT-P. Trust me they compete alright.

The GTS is self explanatory
The senator is largely due to FPV not doing multiply suspension tunes for certain models.

[blackers10]

but now from that other thread of ford preparing a luxo model..
that would then if fitted with a decent V8 would INSTANTLY compete with the senator as being a luxo sedan with big power etc??

wait and see is all we can play!!

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I personally feel the badges on the rear of HSV's date them very quickly.
I struggle to tell VX, VY and VZ apart unless i see the badge on the rear..

Think how people feel about BA MKII BF

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by HSE2

I think Ford have done well against VE.

I think FPV might have some trouble with E series.

I was just wondering was that a typo error?

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by SlickHolden

I was just wondering was that a typo error?

No definitely not a type o.

As Fords stated objective was to appear to be more pre emptive rather then reactive the position taken by Ford with the work on BF looks to have taken a fair bit of the gloss off VE features.

VE gets world class new IRS - BF already has it.
VE gets suspension system said to be better then BMW. Ford already proved control blade can better BMW benchmarks tested independently on European soil.

VE gets state of the art brakes control, Ford already using it.

Power upgrade with BF Holden forced to react.

DSC introduced in selected models in BF Holden now reacts with DSC across the range.

Holden introduce theme design interiors. Ford did that with AU.

Holden introduce 6 speed auto, Ford already has it.

Ford has a “real” performance option in the 6 department, Holden yet to react.

Ford have a product with Ford DNA, Holden has lost some of their DNA.

Holden introduce a dash design based on ICC, Holden 4 years later catch up.

and so on.


That’s surface stuff. There will be improvements in plastic quality and in the "feeling" as one naturally expects with brand new models. What concerns me most about Holden’s VE is that it has an element of me too to it. I understand completely why Holden people love this car. It will be a huge step up over the last car, but it does come across as a part of this part of that, someone done this, someone already has done that, sort of thing. For a fresh sheet 1 billion dollar design I was expecting more. Perhaps those expectations were too high. To me the fornt of the SS doesn't belong on a car with that side profile. Stick the bras on front and rear and my opinion goes up 10 fold. The side profile is stunning on some models. The head light design actually keeps the BF looking fresh and so on.

Now all I have said there is the reverse for nearly anything associated with FPV when judged to the same criteria with emphasis on being pre emptive and not wanting to follow. For now until the real tests start I am comfortable with Ford position against the all signing all dance saviour of the universe.
I am not sure Holden have done enough. A more detail option will follow once the car has been released and I have sampled it first hand. But remember you did ask.

Fellow Ford peoples if I come under attack please feel free to defend my honour over the next 12 hours :evil3:

That’s my opinion