6 litre Pushrod Motor...Anyone ????

[Perana]

The 3V headed motors are only a replacement for the 2V headed motors which were fitted to Mustang GT's etc.. The Shelby Mustang and Ford GT motors still have 4V heads

[Tiapan]

hey wait didnt for say they were releasing a titanium 78 vavle v10 with a whopple supercharger with runs on unleaded with a B.S. additive???

yeah thats right and its gona go in the gtho phase 6!

[JPFS1]

There's a lot of effort in this thread concerning ford designing a new engine and ultimately ford AUS getting it... well, it won't happen. What you see now is what you get - basically.

VE and Orion model cycle (say 6 years) will be the last you'll see the conventional driveline. The focus is now shifting to smaller, fuel efficient cars. VE and Orion will be bigger cars chasing that 5 star rating, but after that i would be expecting a scale back.

Regarding the engines in Ford AUS, if we're lucky, we'll see an updated block, VCT activated, and for the extra hi-po models, supercharged. This will get us through to 2012, then it's goodnight petrol guzzlers etc. It will then be smaller v8's with hitech for top models, and there'll be the coming of the hybrids.

Sorry - but this is the reality.

[HSE2]

Thats nearly as good a piece of news as the new Mark Martin merchandise.

[JPFS1]

Originally Posted by HSE2

Thats nearly as good a piece of news as the new Mark Martin merchandise.

sorry Ian - it isn't that bad. Here's hoping they actually implement those changes to our V8, it would end up being a ball tearer.

On the stuff way in the future - i could be wrong, so much can change between now and then. Just need a couple of the oilers to find a new saudi sized oil field or two - then we can go back to $25/bbl oil and we'll be right for another 50 or so years. ;)

[HSE2]

No no no. This is good. Have you seen the new stuff. Viagra is gone. Triple A is in and it’s red, white and blue. Car looks awesome.

Seriously there is nothing wrong with what we have now. After market easily tune the biggest complaint out with no ill affects or so I am led to believe. Alloy block and a willingness by FPV to listen to what is being said that will done me. Before the edit we were calling for the Windsor bottom end on a Boss mid-top end. Either that or a cable throttle. It’s really not that big of a deal. Why FPV have practically ignored the calls while holding their collective ankles with the F6 isn't clear. Perhaps that’s the price of diversification.

[Steffo]

There's a tad more to it then just power/litre.

If you want to win the power/litre race with an n/a engine... its pretty easy to dominate everything in a car....

Yamaha YZF-R1... 180hp 1.0litre 4cyl... 180hp/litre?

Suzuki GSX1300R Hayabusa... 175hp 1.3litre 4cyl... 134.61hp/litre

Now there is a question of fuel efficiency. A smaller engine revving higher to make the same power as a larger engine revving lower will use alot of fuel, it's under high levels of strain.

2002 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 (C5) - 5.7litre OHV 16-valve Pushrod V8, GenIII LS6...
302kW @ 6000rpm (52.98kW/litre)
542Nm @ 4800rpm (95.08Nm/litre)
6500rpm redline
1417kg
Six-Speed Manual
19mpg city, 28mpg highway
http://www.fast-autos.net/chevrolet/...rvettez06.html

2002 Honda NSX - 3.2litre DOHC 24-valve V6, VTEC
216kW @ 7100rpm (67.5kW/litre)
304Nm @ 5500rpm (95Nm/litre)
8000rpm redline
1433kg
Six-Speed Manual
17mpg city, 24mpg highway
http://www.fast-autos.net/acura/02acuransx.html

Lets see. The weight difference is 16kg in favour of the Corvette. The NSX has 1500rpm more to play with. It's got variable valve and cam timing, etc etc. Corvette has none of this.

NSX has 3.2litres and 6 cylinders, Corvette has 5.7litres and 8 cylinders. NSX is 86kW behind the Corvette and 238Nm behind. It uses more petrol. It's much slower.

Now what would be the wiser purchase. The pushrod V8 car that gets better fuel economy, is far more powerful and faster. Or the DOHC V6 car that weighs MORE, gets worse economy and is far less powerful and slower. Costs more too.

A car has to provide a total package. You can make an engine rev to as high as you want, and produce as much power per litre as you want. If it's not efficient in the sense that it doesn't use much fuel and it's durable (NSX, for example, is neither fuel efficient nor very long lasting) then I don't want to hear about it in a mass produced road car like a Falcon.

Bring on a more powerful, lighter, cheaper engine then the 5.4 any day Ford! The Modular engines were designed horribly from the start. Valve actuation method doesn't really concern me, if they increase power, reduce build costs, reduce fuel economy and increase durability... I'll say it's a good thing.

[Bucket]

is this a : thing to say or is suggesting that Ford look at producing an All alloy version of the BOSS to combat weight issues over the front axles a better idea and cheaper than doing a 6L pushrod?? I think we would see far better performance from the current line of ford and Mid- High 13's from the GT's if it was brought in...

[HSE2]

All Ford engines will be alloy or a composite material. Some reports say by 2008 now there are some suggestions that the deadline might be 2010. It’s just a question of when not if. Cast Iron is dead.

[Cobra]

It may be cheaper to go back to producing a 6 litre pushrod V8, but would those production savings negate the developmental costs? They'd have to be sure they are gonna make a shyte load of them before they can even break even. The DOHC V8s are allready tried, tested and developed. All they need now is improving on.

In the end I really couldn't care less how a Ford V8s valves are actuated. Pushrod or DOHC. As long as it goes that is the main thing. And I think theres is 3 things that BOSS engines lack, all of which have been mentioned on here.

Firstly they need an alloy block. Saving 42kg on an engine alone is massive. BAs are porky enough as it is, especially the extra weight of the v8s over the front axle. Not only would this weight saving block help handling 10 fold, it would contribute to a consistent 10th of a second shaving off 0-100 and 1/4 times at a guess.

Secondly, they need Cobra R rods. BOSS motors have massive flowing heads, but they just can't utilise them to near their potential as the motors just don't rev. Give the boss an extra 1000rpm to play with (6800rpm) combined with their huge flowing DOHC heads it would probably eat an LS2 in the top end range.

Finally they need VCT on both inlet and exhaust valves. Ford have got themsleves in a tricky situation with the long stroke BOSS motor. They should in theory have a truck load of torque down low due to their extremely long stroke. As mentioned above their, heads should provide ample power up top due to their very large ports and flowing capability. But, combining a long stroke bottom end and massive flowing heads results in an engine thats doughy down low as it flows to well up top, yet can't rev and utilise its power up top because it can't physically get to those rpms that produce the power.

VCT combined with an extra 1000rpm to play with will result in a motor that will produce more power and torque everywhere in the rev range than what Ford currently have with the BOSS. It will feel like a totally different motor. And combined with an alloy block, will mean less weight over the front axle and subsequently result in a feeling of it being a totally different car.

Just my 2c.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Cobra

It may be cheaper to go back to producing a 6 litre pushrod V8, but would those production savings negate the developmental costs? They'd have to be sure they are gonna make a shyte load of them before they can even break even. The DOHC V8s are allready tried, tested and developed. All they need now is improving on.

In the end I really couldn't care less how a Ford V8s valves are actuated. Pushrod or DOHC. As long as it goes that is the main thing. And I think theres is 3 things that BOSS engines lack, all of which have been mentioned on here.

Firstly they need an alloy block. Saving 42kg on an engine alone is massive. BAs are porky enough as it is, especially the extra weight of the v8s over the front axle. Not only would this weight saving block help handling 10 fold, it would contribute to a consistent 10th of a second shaving off 0-100 and 1/4 times at a guess.

Secondly, they need Cobra R rods. BOSS motors have massive flowing heads, but they just can't utilise them to near their potential as the motors just don't rev. Give the boss an extra 1000rpm to play with (6800rpm) and it would probably eat an LS2 up top.

Finally they need VCT on both inlet and exhaust valves. Ford have got themsleves in a tricky situation with the long stroke BOSS motor. They should in theory have a truck load of torque down low due to their extremely long stroke. Yet their heads should provide ample power due to their very large ports and flowing ability. Combined long stroke and massive flowing heads results in an engine thats doughy down low because it flows to well up top, yet can't rev and utilise its power up top as it can't rev.

VCT combined with an extra 1000rpm to play with will result in a motor that will produce more power and torque everywhere in the rev range than what Ford currently have. It will feel like a totally different motor. And combined with an alloy block, will mean less weight over the front axle and subsequently result in a feeling of it being a totally different car.

Just my 2c.

Like any well thought out design you've just highlighted that Ford has left plenty of scope for integrating improvements down the line and over time..
As the product does a pretty good job as is maybe that's been their thinking all along?
Im sure LS2 was closer to the original design concept when LS1 was released but you don't "givem everything" straight away...

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Cobra

It may be cheaper to go back to producing a 6 litre pushrod V8, but would those production savings negate the developmental costs? They'd have to be sure they are gonna make a shyte load of them before they can even break even. The DOHC V8s are allready tried, tested and developed. All they need now is improving on.

In the end I really couldn't care less how a Ford V8s valves are actuated. Pushrod or DOHC. As long as it goes that is the main thing. And I think theres is 3 things that BOSS engines lack, all of which have been mentioned on here.

Firstly they need an alloy block. Saving 42kg on an engine alone is massive. BAs are porky enough as it is, especially the extra weight of the v8s over the front axle. Not only would this weight saving block help handling 10 fold, it would contribute to a consistent 10th of a second shaving off 0-100 and 1/4 times at a guess.

Secondly, they need Cobra R rods. BOSS motors have massive flowing heads, but they just can't utilise them to near their potential as the motors just don't rev. Give the boss an extra 1000rpm to play with (6800rpm) combined with their huge flowing DOHC heads it would probably eat an LS2 in the top end range.

Finally they need VCT on both inlet and exhaust valves. Ford have got themsleves in a tricky situation with the long stroke BOSS motor. They should in theory have a truck load of torque down low due to their extremely long stroke. As mentioned above their, heads should provide ample power up top due to their very large ports and flowing capability. But, combining a long stroke bottom end and massive flowing heads results in an engine thats doughy down low as it flows to well up top, yet can't rev and utilise its power up top because it can't physically get to those rpms that produce the power.

VCT combined with an extra 1000rpm to play with will result in a motor that will produce more power and torque everywhere in the rev range than what Ford currently have with the BOSS. It will feel like a totally different motor. And combined with an alloy block, will mean less weight over the front axle and subsequently result in a feeling of it being a totally different car.

Just my 2c.

The problem is that FPV won't get VCT on the 4V heads until Ford US design it into them, as we buy them straight from them. It would require significant changes to the heads and timing cover area, and FPV would not do this themselves as they wouldn't want to spend the development dollars on it. They can only rely on Ford US to bring them improvements in the V8, yet they have already ditched the 6.2 litre versions before they even started and seem reluctant to change the current 5.4 as its their truck motor. Hopefully with the 5.4 now going into the Mustang they will start making improvements to them over time. FPV seem reluctant on doing their own development work on the V8, current fuel prices may have a bearing on this.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

FPV seem reluctant on doing their own development work on the V8, current fuel prices may have a bearing on this.

Id suggest its budgetry constraints rather than fuel or reluctance...
FPV run on a shoe-string budget.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Id suggest its budgetry constraints rather than fuel or reluctance...
FPV run on a shoe-string budget.

That would probably be the case, but when you only sell a few thousand a year thats what you get I guess. Ford would rather spend money on the bread and butter, and I suppose thats justified, but dissapointing at the same time.

[brodfloyd]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Id suggest its budgetry constraints rather than fuel or reluctance...
FPV run on a shoe-string budget.

i concure with this statement. Do people believe that FPV intentionally try to not make huge development leaps??? do they syphon off the money to go to the pokies? FPV do the best they can with what they can. And they dont get much, because as toyota shows, u can still make heaps of money by appealing to peoples heads instead of they're hearts.

And as for fuel prices being the main concern not the lack of money, then they WOULD develop the engine heaps, with things like Dual VCT (eg Bara 190, single vct gave the engines a 10% economy benifit, then when they went dual VCT and the 6 spd auto they got another 10% or so), DOD (like the new chrysler hemi) and alloy components (like the blocks in chev LS1 onwards series engines) because they make engines heaps more economical.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The problem is that FPV won't get VCT on the 4V heads until Ford US design it into them, as we buy them straight from them. It would require significant changes to the heads and timing cover area, and FPV would not do this themselves as they wouldn't want to spend the development dollars on it. They can only rely on Ford US to bring them improvements in the V8, yet they have already ditched the 6.2 litre versions before they even started and seem reluctant to change the current 5.4 as its their truck motor. Hopefully with the 5.4 now going into the Mustang they will start making improvements to them over time. FPV seem reluctant on doing their own development work on the V8, current fuel prices may have a bearing on this.

I really don't want to see FPV just throw a truck engine with a blower onto it in a Falcon. Sure it would go really well, have heaps of torque and probably respond better to mods being a supercharged base, but it just wouldn't be the same. N/A out of factory and Forced induction for the after market. Thats on V8s anyway IMO...

Why Ford didn't start with a 5.4 base for the mustang 12 years ago after dropping the Windsor I don't know. And it's the question many yanks have always wondered. IMO the only thing they've done close to right with an NA modular motor is the 5.4L Cobra R. The 4.6L blown donks in the 03/04 Cobras are definately a good thing, and respond very well to mods. But they are cast iron blocked, and combined with the blower are just far to heavy. The 05 5.4 GT motor is a work of art, but it'd want to be for the price.

I really don't like the direction Ford US have gone and are going. Just slapping a supercharger on essentially a truck motor is a cop out. Build a decent N/A V8 to take on the LS2 and get some street cred back Ford! They have all the ingredients in the parts bin like VCT which is used on the 3v donks, Carillo rod which was used on the Cobra R, and alloy block that's used on the 05 GT. Just got to combine that all into one package and Ford would be on to a winner!

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by Cobra

I really don't like the direction Ford US have gone and are going. Just slapping a supercharger on essentially a truck motor is a cop out. Build a decent N/A V8 to take on the LS2 and get some street cred back Ford! They have all the ingredients in the parts bin like VCT which is used on the 3v donks, Carillo rod which was used on the Cobra R, and alloy block that's used on the 05 GT. Just got to combine that all into one package and Ford would be on to a winner!

I really don't think all is bad, i read on one of the SVT forums in the states of a new Ford GT with a Pully Kit (Boost upgrade) and that is all and it was pumping out 635Rwhp.

Originally Posted by http://www.svtperformance.com

His car is an 05' with a 2.5'' upper pulley custom made by whipple, the car is pushing 20lbs of boost, custom dyno tuned at a local shop and put down 635rwhp and 601rwtrq

That is pretty impressive by my standards, wouldn't mind it being that easy for a new FPV GT to get 600Rwhp