Spare the belt . . .

[Tuddy200]

Originally Posted by prydey

have you ever told a 1yr old not to do something only to have them look you in the eye and do exactly that. there is only 1 language they understand at that age. speak to anyone born pre 1960 and they'll tell you the way it was and should be. any decent parent not under the influence of anything only ever disciplines out of love. lessons learned in the first few years are very important.

I agree. I just don't think having to use implements is needed in doing so. The point I was making is alot of people say, "Well my parents did it to me, I turned out OK, so it must work..." they then try it with thier own kids, but they take it too far.

A teacher gives a 15 year old the cane. It's just punishment. The 15 year old hits the teacher with the cane, it's assult.

If we have to instill fear into our children of getting/being hit with things (ie. not smacking) to frighten them to do only good then I have to say our society has took a wrong turn somewhere.

I don't think anyone (including Russel) is saying the system is perfect or is right everytime. However, those working in the system have a tiny line. They have to make the decisons to either take the children away or not, and if they don't and something happens, who do you think going to cop it? As I said above, nobody has yet been charged in the above incidents I listed.

Once a report has been placed, it has to be followed through. Everyone was whinging months back when the poor girl was thrown from the Westgate bridge, that was the system at work, allowing that father visitation rights that the systems workers couldn't stop.

You can never get it right when it comes to parenting, everyone makes mistakes, and as said above, there isn't manual. Would you let an untrained electrian do the wiring in your house? Of course not, that's why they have to have a licence. We can't have a licence to be a parent, but we can try to put measures in place to stop the children ending up hurt.

In closing, I just want to say, that yes, I do agree alot of children these days need dispcline but you need to start from a young age for it to work. Then we wouldn't be in this mess. I also think that we have a growing number of single parenting as well because it's OK to have sex, how many 16 year old mothers do you see around, and the fathers are off drinking and stealing cars themselves, it's a snowball effect. Someone correct me, but I would have thought the culture 30 years ago is if you had a baby with someone, you stick with them unless your safety is in danger, now it's got pregnant at a party, don't know who the father is.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Tuddy200

I agree. I just don't think having to use implements is needed in doing so. The point I was making is alot of people say, "Well my parents did it to me, I turned out OK, so it must work..." they then try it with thier own kids, but they take it too far.

A teacher gives a 15 year old the cane. It's just punishment. The 15 year old hits the teacher with the cane, it's assult.

If we have to instill fear into our children of getting/being hit with things (ie. not smacking) to frighten them to do only good then I have to say our society has took a wrong turn somewhere.

i don't think its about fear, but respect. respect is all but gone in todays society. respect needs to be taught at a very young age. don't get me started on morals either.

[OLDFORDNUT]

Originally Posted by RG

My partner works in Child Welfare, she is no monster and removing children from their parents is ALWAYS a last resort so I'd be very very careful what I say about these "do-gooders" If I were you. You know NO facts, have NO knowledge and are ranting for the sake of ranting.




Oh you know the facts do you? Well share then please.


Sorry you don't? Oh what a shame, I don't blindly believe that the system works. I get a decent look at it every night it comes home. If you really think that that was the only reason those kids were taken then you need to have a good look at the systems and procedures in place that are involved with the removal of children from families. I can guarantee you that there would have been more to that, what goes on in private behind closed doors neighbours often don't even know about.


Anymore BS ranty rubbish will see this thread locked.

you are lucky to know someone who is sensible,as for having no knowledge,you are 100% wrong on that one i have been around several people on both sides of this issue for a lot of years and have seen first hand several incidents where the dept have helped kids and families and saved lives, ive also seen child welfare officers with no commen sence destroy families due to there incompetance ,dont assume someone is having a mindless rant just because you have only seen and heard one side of a story.
go and read some of the stories of kids killed due to completley incompetant officers making wrong assumptions here in QLD and NSW,
YES i know full well there are lots of cases where welfare officers have saved kids lives too.and more often than not.but some of the stuff ups are monumental

[GK]

Originally Posted by JC

GK - do you mean she won't be better off without her dad?
I agree a belt is going a bit far, but there's nothing wrong with a smack.

Sorry guys a slip of the keyboard. She's far, far, far better off with her dad.
Absolutely nothing wrong with a smack. A belting yes, a beating yes, a smacking no.

Originally Posted by GTP006

Huh?? On the assumption that her father is a good, upstanding and valuable member of society I can't fathom how she could be better off without him?!?.

Even if he's not that good, she's better off with him than a stranger. If he's not harming her, she's far better off being with her dad. Simple.

Sorry for the confusion of my comment.

GK

[Angry Beaver]

Wow reading this thread gave me a headache. Speaking as a now single mom of 5 I will say smacking is the last resort. Usually after the age of 5 kids can get the picture of wrong and right and depending on the maturity of the child you can usually get away with confiscation of toys etc. But if this child is not normal sometimes and I mean sometimes it makes it harder. Secondly we do not know the facts of the case in full so we are all just assuming it was just the belting. What if it wasn't? And what if he was violent in other ways?, we do not know so therefore we can not make an informed judgment.

Someone brought up that he had this done because he was a single dad. Do not agree with this comment, I firmly believe that if a single Parent and I mean both sexes is doing something that grossly puts the child in danger or is negliant than that parent whether it is male or female should have the children removed.

Back onto discipline. Time outs for some kids work well but for others that child in particular may have a problem with sitting still, so time outs are not good, so what next you as a parent have to decide therefore going down the long line of disciplines in your arsenal till you arrive at smacking. I always use it as a last resort for the reason of A) It makes me feel absolute crap for having to give them a tap.

But sadly parents these days are to much into the hippy hugging ways and letting their kids get away with behaviour that I wouldn't let my dog do. So it is effective but there are tougher alternatives like previous posters have said.

[ILLaViTaR]

The girl is now living with a foster carer interstate.

It's great we have understanding people like Greg Cavanagh who obviously understand what it's like to get spanked around and beaten often at a young age.

[mik]

the strap never hurt me or most of my generation, not to mention ruler across the knuckles, t sqaure across the rear , , its nothing more than an aid to know if you do wrong you get punished, you see smart azz attitude down the street every day from young whipper snappers.....no discipline, if those are the facts THE JUDGE WAS WRONG.

[PALE ALE]

Originally Posted by Angry Beaver

Wow reading this thread gave me a headache. Speaking as a now single mom of 5 I will say smacking is the last resort. Usually after the age of 5 kids can get the picture of wrong and right and depending on the maturity of the child you can usually get away with confiscation of toys etc. But if this child is not normal sometimes and I mean sometimes it makes it harder. Secondly we do not know the facts of the case in full so we are all just assuming it was just the belting. What if it wasn't? And what if he was violent in other ways?, we do not know so therefore we can not make an informed judgment.

Someone brought up that he had this done because he was a single dad. Do not agree with this comment, I firmly believe that if a single Parent and I mean both sexes is doing something that grossly puts the child in danger or is negliant than that parent whether it is male or female should have the children removed.

Back onto discipline. Time outs for some kids work well but for others that child in particular may have a problem with sitting still, so time outs are not good, so what next you as a parent have to decide therefore going down the long line of disciplines in your arsenal till you arrive at smacking. I always use it as a last resort for the reason of A) It makes me feel absolute crap for having to give them a tap.

But sadly parents these days are to much into the hippy hugging ways and letting their kids get away with behaviour that I wouldn't let my dog do. So it is effective but there are tougher alternatives like previous posters have said.

As a father of 4, I totally agree with what you have said. I rarely have to smack my kids, just an evil eye, and the old, 1,......2,......3, by the time I count to 2 their back into line

[SLO-04L]

no more powerful words have ever been spoken as "Wait till your father gets home" and that because we were all worried of what might have happened because we knew. My Parents hit me as a child but i always new the consequences of my actions and don't feel it has had an adverse affect on my upbringing. that being said i have made a decision that should i ever become a parent "smacking" a child as punishment for no matter what reason would not be used and at the age of 22 feel that it was because of this i have turned out the way i am, i have learned a lot from my old man some being how to act and some how not too it is up to the individual to decide how they will bring their children up. i work in hospitality and nothing bothers me more than to see kids running around unsupervised behaving like animals. i was taught at a very young age how to behave in public and how to behave when out at tea, should i have misbehaved while out i was given one warning and one only as i knew what was to follow, now while i believe that some of what my parents did was a little over the top it was effective in rectifying poor behavior, far too many parents these days are becoming to complacent with disciplining their children and letting them off with far to much and as such breading a generation that refuse to take responsibility for their own actions

[Angry Beaver]

Yes alot of it is complacent, but alot of it is we are just to darn nervous to do it in public because of the back lash. Today's society is so quick to assume that a smack means that the child is beaten within an inch of their life or are mistreated in some shape or form and are very quick to involve authorities.

[GK]

Originally Posted by Angry Beaver

Yes alot of it is complacent, but alot of it is we are just to darn nervous to do it in public because of the back lash. Today's society is so quick to assume that a smack means that the child is beaten within an inch of their life or are mistreated in some shape or form and are very quick to involve authorities.

Agreed!

How often can a child in the supermarket etc, be seen to be stuffing around, with the frazzled parent looking powerless to do nothing?

I guess with the focus these days so often being on a laughing happy child (and parent) at all costs, there isn't much stomach anymore for a crying child.

My youngest daughter was bawling her eyes out yesterday as we left Grandma's house. She was exhausted and very sad at leaving her cousins and others who loved her.

We put her in the car, she was crying (very loudly) all the way and my mother and sister (doesn't have kids) wanted to do anything to stop her. It was like their world was going to end! LOL! My brother and his wife looked on knowingly. 3 minutes into the car trip the crying stopped.

If people give into a stubborn, tired, grumpy, disobedient, selfish etc, etc child, then they learn no self-control, boundaries and respect for others and authority.

Common sense really.

GK

[Burnout]

I was unlucky enough to be out of work when my daughter was born.
So the missus went back to work & I got to look after the new one & the old
one, who was a couple of years older.

I had a great time being a house husband for a year or so.

Discipline consisted of the usual, including;
'Wait til your mother gets home."

As usual with rug rats n' ankle biters they pushed the boundaries until, one
day I was driven to asking my son to get the wooden spoon, which he wouldn't do because he had decided to challenge the boss, totally.

The wooden spoon soon became the most feared item in the home, as a matter of fact the wooden spoon went missing on a semi-regular basis
as my son would steal them & hide them under his bed or in his
drawers/wardrobe which led me to the conclusion the was a sprinkling
or intelligence there somewhere.....He then leaned that they burned merrily in the incinerator & couldn't be found in the flash new wheely bin.
This issue was fixed by a bulk purchase all but one being kept hidden away
until needed.

So the new weapon used when nearly all else failed was,
"Go get the wooden spoon."

I only ever used it on each or either of them once; had to send them to get the spoon regularly. Just being sent to get the spoon did the trick. Now grown they remind me of these events with some humour.

Can't be all that bad!

[BIGJB]

^^^^ Classic.

Mum and I joke a lot about the "wait till ya father gets home"
and about his belt. I can still hear the noise it made as she folded it
in half and made it crack together. Use to scare the hell out of me.
Can never remember her using it but. Same as I can never remember
the old man hitting me. The threat of what he "may" do was enough to
pull me into line most of the time.

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by NT News

Smack costs dad his daughter

NO it doesn't!!!!

If the father in this article had given his daughter a tap on the bot we would have never heard about it.

Hit with belt five times = a smack?? No way!!

I believe everyone in this thread has agreed that taking a belt to a five year old for any reason is wrong, period.

How is it the discussion has been side tracked from the main, more difficult issue of the original post? That being a child removed from her parent?

There are lines crossed when disciplining a child goes past a certain point. Where the lines are is debatable, so when we force our courts to make the decision there is no way everyone will agree.

Parents can use forms of positive and negative reinforcement, when all else fails some parents smack a child for a breach of clearly defined rule. Some smack a child for each and every breach off 'the rules' so they always know the boundaries. Other parents believe using something more than their hand eg; the wooden spoon (my mums favorite), a belt, a cane, a tree branch, etc work for them as just the presents of the item can act as a constant deterrent.

Personally I don't believe discipline automatically equates to punishment. I have never needed to smack my four, almost five, year old daughter and she's a great kid. This may not have been the case if she was a boy or a girl with a different temperament. I don't believe I am creating a problem for society because I don't smack. I would never impose my standards on other parents or their kids.

The idea that all kids respond the same or that one form of discipline is superior to all others is simplistic at best and dangerous when taken to extremes.

Sometimes parents fail their children and the rest of us have to pick up the pieces and live with the consequences. The idea that smacking, or not smacking is the key or even a large part of the answer to failed parenting is so simplistic it would be funny if it wasn't so serious.

Australia is one of the wealthiest countries in the world, I believe it to be the best country in the world (sure I'm bias). Why is it the rate of child abuse is still so high?

EDIT I was born in the 60's, was smacked at home, strapped and canned at school, not sure how that makes a difference.

[stang65]

I think people have read four hits with a belt and automatically come to the conclusion that they were hard smacks. Unfortunately we don`t have the whole story. I know that especially with a lot of greeks the thing they feared the most was the Koutala (wooden spoon) Just the mention of it was enought to make the kids behave like angels. Sometimes it is easier to scare kids with an instrument rather than hit them with your hand. Unfortunately we live in a world where the goverment tells us what we can and can`t do and taking away our right to raise children with discipline and then those kids growing up with no respect is the result.

i dont have kids but i have two nephews and two neices the nephews are grown up now but when they were younger spent alot time with me. They new if I told them to behave, i meant it i only had to raise my voice. but they listened and because they listened they were often rewarded but they also new if they also feared if they dindn`t behave they might get hit (Thank god maccas was cheap and I was at the age of hunting chicks (17 to 24) so it was wiin win, i had cute nephews)

If i had kids would I hit them? Yes I would, Why because while they live under my house they follow my rules and because any kid i raise i expect to be of good character to show respect, not to steal, to help people if they can and to make this place a better world.

[IDT]

Originally Posted by stang65

Unfortunately we live in a world where the goverment tells us what we can and can`t do and taking away our right to raise children with discipline and then those kids growing up with no respect is the result.

And there you have it in one, people with no more experience than any other parent telling us what our rights are.

[bathurst77]

I think parents were more liekly to smack kids gnerations ago, the idea of not smacking is fairly modern, only becoming widespread in the last 50 years or so.

But yet there have been cheeky bratty, kids terrible people, anti social people, thieves, agros, rapists, conmen and murderers since Abel stole Cain's toy rock.

There has always been smacked kids, there has always been nasty people. I dont see any evidence that all the evil doers or nasty pieces of work in history werent smacked.

Nor do i hold with "not smacked kids are cheekier or worse behaved". I jsut dont see it.

Conversely I dont think light "tap on the bum to diffuse a situation quickly" is a bad thing. I do it

[aussiblue]

OK I'm 55 and was raised under the old school spanking (and at school caning) discipline and while I once thought it was OK, I'm now very much against it and believe it is unnecessary.

Both my children are adopted and one of the rules of adoption is no spanking, hitting etc except as a last resort in a life threatening situation. When my wife and I were going through the adoption process 20 odd years ago, if you broke this rule in the initial years when they are still wards of the state you automatically lost the children. Every time they children visited hospital for any reason also resulted in a visit and investigation by Community Services.

As is not unusual with children from orphanages, one of the children came to us with some significant behavioural problems -i.e. with the attitude that I'll do whatever I can to get attention even something extremely naughty or dangerous (an adaption to orphanage life where extra attention meant extra food). In this situation, and with legal rules around no hitting related punishment, you read lots of books about alternatives and you do find that while it takes lots of work and extreme patience, rewarding good behaviour, ignoring bad behaviour and giving lots of love works. Both children are now law abiding responsible adults.

The many times I came close to hitting them was when I lost my temper and at a time when I had a pheochromocytoma an illness which gives high adrenalin and hypertension and isn't really conducive to patience, calmness and level headedness but luckily having learnt that it was about my frustration rather than their bad behaviour stopped me.

I did hit one son on the hand lightly once with the TV power cord once earlier on as he had learnt that biting a live power cord would get our immediate alarmed attention. This was really a response to the 'no hitting unless it's life threatening rule' and the thought process for me was OK this a life threatening action so I must hit him. It didn't work and just encouraged further immediate cord biting. I very much regret that incident. Locking him in his room didn't work either he just threw a tantrum and started banging his head dangerously against the wall. I eventually found a way of hiding the TV power cable and rigging up a fake power cable that he could bite and we could safely ignore - when he got no response from us he soon lost interest in biting the cable. There was another life threatening incident with a poisonous garden spray later on and again I also regret my similar ineffective mindset of life threatening - so you must use corporal punsihment spanking response.

On reflection about my own childhood I also know I was caned many times at school in situations where I was innocent (we did have a headmaster who as I found from talking to teachers later in life had earned a reputation as one of the cruelest ones in the WA system) and all it did was build fear and resentment and remove some of my self confidence. Similarly, the few times my father belted me was not when I had done something particularly bad but when he had lost his temper.

I wouldn't condemn any parent who in a moment of frustration lightly spanked their child on some rare ocassions; I certainly came close a number of times. It does take more patience and is hard work to raise children without spanking them but I believe it can be done.

A major problem with allowing hitting of any kind with children is that it provides a loophole for those parents that abuse their children and the people in authority like the sadistic headmaster I had. No parents are perfect but I believe spanking is unnecessary and really only happens because we have been bought up and conditioned by our parents and peers to think it is Ok or even good discipline or that it should be used in certain circumstances (i.e. in my case where a life threatening issue is involved). If it was/is illegal or taboo and recognised as such by all society as such we would find a better way.

[stang65]

Originally Posted by WAForce8

And there you have it in one, people with no more experience than any other parent telling us what our rights are.

I may not have a kid ,but you don`t know me either. I have plenty of experience raising kids, just don`t have my own.
People who know me will tell you that when my nephews and neices while in my care are well behaved and respectful.

Maybe you should need a licence to become a parent these days people have them and then let them get away with murder. The problem in todays world is the lack of discipline as I am only a year older than you I would of expected more maturity.

[azaxr8]

I was smacked as a kid, and honestly i started laughing as they done it because it didn't hurt ever. What made me listen is dad getting angry and grounding me. I learnt quick fast that way.