Wagons back from the dead: Sportwagon still outselling every SUV - Drive Comparo

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

EXACTLY what ive been thinking while reading all these missguided posts and thoughts. Theyve developed a car that has eaten out off its own sedan sales but the catch is they spent millions developing it. And to top that they import one of the biggest overated suvs in aus. The captiva....but ford have the mondeo range/wagon for that. Much better build..rep..style ..and street cred. Ford also have maintained profit and holden are still struggling to pay there gov bills and depts......nice one people....The only thing i will give yous is that the terri has taken to long to update to a satisfactory level for the punters....still sells tho...

Not even close, you may be reading, but i fear your not letting ALL the story in.

Lets look at it this way, Ford developed the Terri as it saw an emerging market, and until now has sold it along side the Falcon wagon, given.
Holden continued with its lacally built wagon until VE when they decided to evolve the basic wagon into an attractive alternative to the mundane, dime a dozen SUV.
Sure a percentage of Commodore sedan buyers have opted for the sportswagon instead, and this is evident in the figures you refer to, as im sure Terri's cut into falcon, however, what you fail to recognise is that as with Ford and its reason for Terri, Holden also faced an invasion from off sure in the emerging SUV market.

Holden chose to tackle it originally with the Adventurer/crewman concepts and recently the Sports wagon for its rev heads, backed up by the Captiva for the conservative kind.
Ford tried to hot up its Terri, the F6X, and failed.

The question is, how many sales would Holden have lost if it decided to stick with the reps wagon or worse still, kill it altogether.
You cant tell me a percentage of the SportsWagon sales wouldnt have gone looking for SUV's.
That would also put pressure on jobs at the Elizabeth plant

It worried Ford enough to invest in the Terri.

The big question is where will the current Falcon wagon sales go now its finished, will they all buy Terri's or look elsewhere?

[jpd80]

Ford proves that even a rather "neglected" SUV like Territory can still pull sales,
while Holden shows that a properly developed sportwagon can pull good sales too.
Both pitch to different buyers in the market place.

The Fact that Holden sells Commodore sedan, Sportwagon, Ute and Captiva
as opposed to Ford who now only sell the Falcon sedan, Ute and Territory
seems to escapes some people...

I think Ford needs to seriously address the station wagon area, either by more Mondeos or bite the bullet...
If Mondeo S/W is only being supplied at a drizzle, Ford needs to do something about it and stop whining
about it euro factories, Mondeo sales in Europe are in the crapper, no excuses please.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by jpd80

The Fact that Holden sells Commodore sedan, Sportwagon, Ute and Captiva as opposed to Ford who now only sell the Falcon sedan, Ute and Territory seems to escapes some people...

It hasn't escaped me...

The other thing about the Sportwagon supposedly allegedly perhaps "stealing" sales from the Commodore sedan aren't considering, is that the large car segment is still in decline and with that extra body type, Holden is managing to stave off that decline and maintain some extra interest in the segment that Ford can't. That extra body type gets those extra people walking into Holden dealerships that aren't walking into Ford dealerships.

At the end of the day, they are offering a wider range of products that aren't that exxy on Holden's existing resources - they seem to have a 'can do' attitude whereas Ford just keep making excuses, a-la the Mondeo supply situation. I wish it was the other way around.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

It hasn't escaped me...

The other thing about the Sportwagon supposedly allegedly perhaps "stealing" sales from the Commodore sedan aren't considering, is that the large car segment is still in decline and with that extra body type, Holden is managing to stave off that decline and maintain some extra interest in the segment that Ford can't. That extra body type gets those extra people walking into Holden dealerships that aren't walking into Ford dealerships.

At the end of the day, they are offering a wider range of products that aren't that exxy on Holden's existing resources - they seem to have a 'can do' attitude whereas Ford just keep making excuses, a-la the Mondeo supply situation. I wish it was the other way around.

Good points and I wasn't aiming at you with my "some people" comment. The large car market has
been in decline for years and really bottomed out badly last year and has recovered to about
2008 levels this year. Ford's belief that wagon buyers mostly migrated to Territory was well founded,
five years ago the RWD Territory was doing a roaring trade at 60% of Territory sales Ford needed to push
on and supply a diesel and 6-speed auto across the board but unfortunately, Ford was careless with the market.

Traditional station wagon was kept as a tool of trade which declined and ceases this month (today?)
If mondeo S/W is the replacement, they need to get cracking with good supplies and stop making
excuses, there are obviously buyers out there that Ford isn't servicing......


Holden chose to import Captiva as its mid sized SUV, available an affordable diesel (Are you listening Ford)
whilst developing the Sportwagon for the illfated Pontiac export program, but fortunately for them
Aussie buyers have taken a shine to it and are buying a lot of high series versions.

Ford made no apologies about diverting funds away from Fairlane and Station wagon to develop Territory
just as Holden Used Captiva instead of developing a Zeta SUV, instead developing a Sportwagon.
A painful wait for Territory II but well worth it I expect and should place Territory back on buyers lists..

Horses for courses, let's watch what happens if fuel prices drop a little and the economy speeds up,
there may be some good times ahead for the locals, even another 10,000 units or so for each would
busy up both plants enough to give them heart.....

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Not even close, you may be reading, but i fear your not letting ALL the story in.

Lets look at it this way, Ford developed the Terri as it saw an emerging market, and until now has sold it along side the Falcon wagon, given.
Holden continued with its lacally built wagon until VE when they decided to evolve the basic wagon into an attractive alternative to the mundane, dime a dozen SUV.
Sure a percentage of Commodore sedan buyers have opted for the sportswagon instead, and this is evident in the figures you refer to, as im sure Terri's cut into falcon, however, what you fail to recognise is that as with Ford and its reason for Terri, Holden also faced an invasion from off sure in the emerging SUV market.

Holden chose to tackle it originally with the Adventurer/crewman concepts and recently the Sports wagon for its rev heads, backed up by the Captiva for the conservative kind.
Ford tried to hot up its Terri, the F6X, and failed.

The question is, how many sales would Holden have lost if it decided to stick with the reps wagon or worse still, kill it altogether.
You cant tell me a percentage of the SportsWagon sales wouldnt have gone looking for SUV's.
That would also put pressure on jobs at the Elizabeth plant

It worried Ford enough to invest in the Terri.

The big question is where will the current Falcon wagon sales go now its finished, will they all buy Terri's or look elsewhere?

haha what are you talking about bud. Are u saying i missled the fact that more sales then i think are coming in fresh from new buyers that wernt even looking at a holden. Yourrrr dreamin. garentee you 90% of those sw sales are from commadore sales who would rather have a sporty wagon then the same run of the mill they and there families had been buying in there family forever. of course some sales have skipped between codes but next to none at this stage of terri life...as the sw is NOT a dirrect competitor to the terri.In no way is it. Thats what the captiva is for. And if you think people are buying sw instead of the influx of euro and asian suvs...again they are a minority. Again thats what the captiva is aimed at....hence the large sales.The captiva is a PERFECT EXAMPLE OF BRAND BLINDNESS IM HINTING AT WITH THE SW TAKING COMMADORE SALES. dESPITE IT BEING BUILT IN A TOTALY TRADITIONAL non quialty based country...the captiva has still sold well. All they see is the badge. And i think you have your timing mixed up cus the terri has been out with no real major updates years ahead of the sw...hence how has ford seen the sw as a threat to the terri....your dreamin again.Be a bit more specific with some details if you want to say NOT EVEN CLOSE....HOW???

[jpd80]

Also makes one realise just how important the diesel is to the Captiva's sales
and wonder how many Territory sales have been lost over the years because of no diesel..

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

haha what are you talking about bud. Are u saying i missled the fact that more sales then i think are coming in fresh from new buyers that wernt even looking at a holden. Yourrrr dreamin. garentee you 90% of those sw sales are from commadore sales who would rather have a sporty wagon then the same run of the mill they and there families had been buying in there family forever. of course some sales have skipped between codes but next to none at this stage of terri life...as the sw is NOT a dirrect competitor to the terri.In no way is it. Thats what the captiva is for. And if you think people are buying sw instead of the influx of euro and asian suvs...again they are a minority. Again thats what the captiva is aimed at....hence the large sales.The captiva is a PERFECT EXAMPLE OF BRAND BLINDNESS IM HINTING AT WITH THE SW TAKING COMMADORE SALES. dESPITE IT BEING BUILT IN A TOTALY TRADITIONAL non quialty based country...the captiva has still sold well. All they see is the badge. And i think you have your timing mixed up cus the terri has been out with no real major updates years ahead of the sw...hence how has ford seen the sw as a threat to the terri....your dreamin again.Be a bit more specific with some details if you want to say NOT EVEN CLOSE....HOW???

Calm down mate and take a breath!

I'll tell you what, i'll reply when you learn to punctuate a well constructed sentence, that just gives me a headache.

[arronm]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Calm down mate and take a breath!

I'll tell you what, i'll reply when you learn to punctuate a well constructed sentence, that just gives me a headache.

And learn to SPELL

[last fairlane]

Yes I would like to buy a new style sports wagon
the only choice I have is
A Holden sports (they look good) but they are still a Commodore
(bloody aweful to drive)
or a Chrysler 300C wagon (they look better) but I know nothing about them
Ive had Ford Falcons wagons sedans and utes for the last 40 years
but there is nothing which I fancy in the line up
so thats that
The Territory is good but not what I want
thanks John

[BENT_8]

Thanks John, im sure your not alone....

[sxckevo]

Originally Posted by SumoDog68

It is interesting how people look at Ford as if they are CEO of the company. Simple fact is if you want low riding sporty wagon (maybe even v8 manual) Holden has a product for you. That is looking at it as a consumer.
FG XR6 Turbo Estate would be A nice option for some consumers. Who cares if cannibalizes Territory sales :-)

Um who cares if it cannibalizes territory sales??... Pretty sure ford would
IMO ford will never(in the immediate future) bring back a falcon wagon. We've gone over it time and time again, why waste money on designing a new one when a perfectly good mondeo wagon is there in it's place? Not everyone is car nuts like us I highly dout they'll lose any sleep that there not driving a 'falcon sportswagon'. Until a possibility may arise that the falcon will go global there is no good business sense in a new wagon just for aus

[arronm]

I just realised the MONDEO everyone is talking about is a 4 cylinder FWD Piece Of S_it. Its a hard decision Sportwagon or Mondeo. Maybe its only me but I think Ill stick with 6 cyl RWD, kangaroos and meat pies.

[naddis01]

Originally Posted by sxckevo

Um who cares if it cannibalizes territory sales??... Pretty sure ford would
IMO ford will never(in the immediate future) bring back a falcon wagon. We've gone over it time and time again, why waste money on designing a new one when a perfectly good mondeo wagon is there in it's place? Not everyone is car nuts like us I highly dout they'll lose any sleep that there not driving a 'falcon sportswagon'. Until a possibility may arise that the falcon will go global there is no good business sense in a new wagon just for aus

With the numbers the Falcon sedan is down to it would almost be getting to the point where the business case is starting to look shaky (assumming no GRWD etc). Why waste money on designing a new one when a perfectly good mondeo sedan is there in it's place?

Personally I couldn't care less if Ford produce a Falcon wagon now. My money has gone elsewhere to Mazda. However if Ford had a product I liked, ie a Sportswagon style FG, and no not a Territory, they would have got my money.

[SumoDog68]

Originally Posted by sxckevo

Um who cares if it cannibalizes territory sales??... Pretty sure ford would
IMO ford will never(in the immediate future) bring back a falcon wagon. We've gone over it time and time again, why waste money on designing a new one when a perfectly good mondeo wagon is there in it's place? Not everyone is car nuts like us I highly dout they'll lose any sleep that there not driving a 'falcon sportswagon'. Until a possibility may arise that the falcon will go global there is no good business sense in a new wagon just for aus

Holden Sportwagon is not exported but it seems to sell quite well locally. It is not waste of money having a range of cars that people want.
Ford's attitude seems to be buy what we make rather we 'll make what you want to buy.
Look at what happened when Ford went out of its comfort zone and produced turbo 6. It created a unique model that has huge following.
Mondeo(or Territory) is not a replacement for Falcon sporty wagon. Mondeo plays against Mazda 6, Liberty and host of smaller SUV.
I think local Ford has to react quicker to what market wants and be more adventurous in order to attract new generation of buyers and not just rely on die hard Ford fans who would buy anything that has Ford badge on it.

[prydey]

here's a question for all the experts - would the sportwagon or even the commodore sell in the same numbers if it wasn't a holden and didn't wear the holden badge?

people forget that in this country, holden is almost sacred and have many blind followers who truly believe they are an australian company and the best thing since sliced bread.

personally i think the wagon is ugly. i didn't think they could make the ve uglier but i guess i was wrong.

[BENT_8]

Would you buy a Falcon/Terri if it didnt carry a Ford badge...

The fact is, as the OP posted, the Commodore and SW are both selling well, wether 1 eats into the others sales is irrelevant.

People are keeping their jobs, thats all that matters.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Would you buy a Falcon/Terri if it didnt carry a Ford badge...

the same applies, but i think in this country, holden have a much bigger following.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Also makes one realise just how important the diesel is to the Captiva's sales
and wonder how many Territory sales have been lost over the years because of no diesel..

How did TG get it so wrong....and why couldn't he be convinced otherwise at the time? The money saved in halting the program might have resulted in a profit for the FY but what has been lost would have been a bigger gain in the long run.

x10e6
I bet GP is looking down in disgust, still, with holy steam bellowing from his ears.

The bakery rep next door to me went from VZ wagon to VE Sportswagon and this week brought home a VW Tiguan. I asked him wasn't the VW too small for his needs and he said he got used to the VE's smaller area after the VZ and it wasn't a major problem and then wanted something different and higher bodied and will just squeeze everything in. It got me thinking how many will repeat buy a VE Sportwagon come replacement time if you can choose your own vehicle? I also think Ford need to bring in the Mondeo the MOST powerful version of all the engines so that the difference in performance over the Falcon wagon isn't so great.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by SumoDog68

Holden Sportwagon is not exported but it seems to sell quite well locally. It is not waste of money having a range of cars that people want.

But the wagon got the go ahead so it would be an O/S model. So I wonder how well its doing when this project failed. Like The VE sedan has so far.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by vztrt

But the wagon got the go ahead so it would be an O/S model. So I wonder how well its doing when this project failed. Like The VE sedan has so far.

I guess the proof will be when model replacement is due and whether funds allow it. One case in point is the LWB Holdens, if they can't get US sales for the PI then it's local sales, which seem "Fairlane-like" atm could result in the same outcome, no replacement. I think the $200Million write-off last FY shows just how much expense Holden could write-off after the export plans were cancelled.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

I guess the proof will be when model replacement is due and whether funds allow it. One case in point is the LWB Holdens, if they can't get US sales for the PI then it's local sales, which seem "Fairlane-like" atm could result in the same outcome, no replacement. I think the $200Million write-off last FY shows just how much expense Holden could write-off after the export plans were cancelled.

It'll depend on the business case. If they went of the VZ wagon numbers and the VE is doing much better then in units (if it has the same/better profit margin) then the car will have done well and might even bring GMH back to the black.

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

How did TG get it so wrong....and why couldn't he be convinced otherwise at the time? The money saved in halting the program might have resulted in a profit for the FY but what has been lost would have been a bigger gain in the long run.

The same thing could be asked why Ford allow components that have been found in the field to be dodgy, to go on for a whole model cycle, before fixing it, rather then get the car fixed during the model cycle and retro fit on existing cars.

It is just what Ford Australia has always done. They've lost plenty of sales and market share over the years because of it I am sure, but they just keep on doing it regardless.

Same as hell will freeze over before Ford recall a car to get a common fault fixed. Save a dollar and loose five the following year when a fed up customer walks. It just is what Ford does. They see the saving by screwing the customer today and don't seem to care about the cost to reputation and sales tomorrow.

The FG Falcon is struggling to shake the BA series reputation and its sales reflect that, so what does Ford do? Ignores the lesson to be learn't and allows the Terris faults to continue on unaddressed, until the cars name is mud with the media and much of the public. Makes no sense to me, but again, this is just what Ford Australia does. Their corporate culture seems to know no other way.

Got me beat why they think it works, because the evidence piling up sure suggests it doesn't.

The Falcon should be competing for the Police trials in the US by now and be available as a limited import, in some sports trim for that market - but it isn't and being Ford it never will be. The yanks would have snapped up the XD Falcon if the company would let the punters have it, but again its just not what they do.

shrug

Dan

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by vztrt

It'll depend on the business case. If they went of the VZ wagon numbers and the VE is doing much better then in units (if it has the same/better profit margin) then the car will have done well and might even bring GMH back to the black.

True. Just thinking out aloud from memeory Cadbury/Schweppes, South East Water, Xerox (or some photocopier company) all used VZ and needed large cargo depth but I can't remember what they use now.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

The same thing could be asked why Ford allow components that have been found in the field to be dodgy, to go on for a whole model cycle, before fixing it, rather then get the car fixed during the model cycle and retro fit on existing cars.

It is just what Ford Australia has always done. They've lost plenty of sales and market share over the years because of it I am sure, but they just keep on doing it regardless.

Same as hell will freeze over before Ford recall a car to get a common fault fixed. Save a dollar and loose five the following year when a fed up customer walks. It just is what Ford does. They see the saving by screwing the customer today and don't seem to care about the cost to reputation and sales tomorrow. It is just what Ford does.

Dan

I guess you're referring to the Terry balljoint failure. If it failed during R&D and validation them I agree. However we don't know if the fix needed to take as long as it did before a new suspension design based on "compression of the joint" was released with SY. You have to also remember that Tom Gorman didn't actually care much about the Terry, the fact it sold in upto 2000/month made it hard to be "deleted" from the range so he starved it of funds, hence we got a turbo I6 because it was relatively cheap to R&D while a diesel arrives next year instead of 2006.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

The FG Falcon is struggling to shake the BA series reputation and its sales reflect that, so what does Ford do?

Actually I believe the FG has a greater share of it's segment then BA, it's just that the large car segment as a whole is so far down that the raw numbers are worse then AU ever was, let alone BA. We are a small market, 1,000,000 units at best and we have a massive choice of brands/vehicle types that didn't exist 10 years.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

I guess you're referring to the Terry balljoint failure. If it failed during R&D and validation them I agree. However we don't know if the fix needed to take as long as it did before a new suspension design based on "compression of the joint" was released with SY. You have to also remember that Tom Gorman didn't actually care much about the Terry, the fact it sold in upto 2000/month made it hard to be "deleted" from the range so he starved it of funds, hence we got a turbo I6 because it was relatively cheap to R&D while a diesel arrives next year instead of 2006.

They went and redesigned the entire area instead of just the actual balljoint. So they had a few goes and couldn't solve the problem. Thats why it took so long. With a car company there is a long process from design to the sign off.

At least they are allowing changes to it even if your over the 100,000k mark.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by vztrt

They went and redesigned the entire area instead of just the actual balljoint. So they had a few goes and couldn't solve the problem. Thats why it took so long. With a car company there is a long process from design to the sign off.

At least they are allowing changes to it even if your over the 100,000k mark.

Thanks for the background.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

The Falcon should be competing for the Police trials in the US by now and be available as a limited import, in some sports trim for that market - but it isn't and being Ford it never will be. The yanks would have snapped up the XD Falcon if the company would let the punters have it, but again its just not what they do.

You should become CEO of Ford US as I think you seem to think you know it all!!!

[JG34JA]

For one I'd love to see a proper FG Falcon wagon, but whether I'd but it new is a different thing. I own the Territory - its whole design won over the female side of the family, there was no way a standard station wagon was to be considered. This was a master stroke by Ford, it allowed the Falcon mechanicals and platform to appeal to a much wider audience. It's been a great car.

jpd80 said

"For the waste of energy put into XT we could have almost had a Falcon sport wagon."

A Falcon sportwagon (or better still, an FG wagon with far superior interior space, LPG and most importantly a full model range & marketing) would undoubtedly help Falcon volume. Being a wagon fan, it's been interesting and saddening to watch it wither on the vine: last XR6 wagon with EFII (EL?), last Fairmont wagon option, V8 option, column shift 6 seater option with AUIII, last Futura option with BFII (?), no great list of equipment on the BFIII, no real prestige for a very long time. So little marketing or development after Territory. Same with the Fairlane (Statesman/Caprice are in that place now...), as volumes shrank good money was not thrown after it. The result was that in both cases volume shrank and no life were breathed into it, despite both being very good at their intended purposes.

Holden tried and failed with the interesting Adventra, then delivered the Sportwagon. A full range of them too, base, sports, luxury. Able to be optioned and individualised. And then Holden actually marketed them. Holden fans, VE sedan owners, and some others buy them keenly.

At the same time, Ford did not invest in the Territory. The SYII is an improvement, better may yet come. In the same time, Territory's very novel arrangement of 2004 (choice of RWD/AWD, 5/7 seats, interior flexibility, options) has been studied and matched by many competitors. Dynamics and drivetrain remain unique. Diesel is a long time coming, but that it still sells a reasonable volume speaks strongly for its very bold initial design.

As Australian-produced volume has shrunk, consumers who wish to support their country's product have had their choices shrunk. Perhaps worryingly, the volume/choices correlate with the lowering of tariffs. Spread across the manufacturers there is still choice; however duplication is being lost. It has got to the point where if you want an Australian RWD-AWD "SUV" wagon, you shop at Ford, if you want an Australian station wagon you shop at Holden.

My next Aussie choice is interesting. Most likely the Terry diesel, on the back of an overall positive experience with the SY. I can only hope there is a full range of different models to choose from, options, and marketing. Choice is nice If however, I want a station wagon and no G6ET or G6E wagon exists, then it's over to Holden. If I want a luxury sedan, the G6ET wins. It's as simple as that.

[Road_Warrior]

I don't think the coulda-woulda-shoulda arguments relating to the Territory are particularly useful. What happened with the Territory over the years has happened, end of story. The focus needs to be on the future and increasing the volume of the assembly plant in a way that will make Ford's operations both profitable and sustainable because without both profits and a sustainable level of throughput from the plant, we won't have an assembly plant after 2016. The profits bit has been taken care of - just - now we just need to get more people buying Falcons and Territories and in my view that can be done with some clever marketing and coming to the realisation that Holden is not Ford's number 1 competitor and enemy - most if not all major brands on offer in Australia are.

Talking in terms of a Falcon Sportwagon, will it add value to Ford's bottom line, enhance the future of the assembly plant and make more people walk into Ford dealers and buy cars? To a degree, yes. I can't see people buying a Falcon wagon over a Falcon sedan because they each are offering something markedly different. I can see people cross-shopping the Territory with a Falcon wagon though, which could lead to a situation where one is robbing sales from the other; so overall sales and production volume doesn't increase, it just gets transferred from one to another. It will have the net effect of making one of the models unsustainable from a future investment point of view, from Ford's perspective.