VE Launch - LIVE STREAM - Sunday 16th July @ 10.30am

[freaky]

Originally Posted by blackahcdx

Its called a staff drive day

was at Eastern Creek.

I must say i came away very impressed. I will happily admit that VZ Commodore is a bucket of dinosaur *****, but forget evrything you know about Commodore because the VE re-writes the rule book.

It is very nimble, changes direction unbelievably quickly, steering is light but has a nice weight and very direct.

V6 is no longer a wheezing breathless slow horrid thing. They re-designed the timing belt chain (i think, i fell asleep in theory) to change the noise and also have a new inlet mainifold which allows a flatter tourqe curve with more power lower down. The 4 speed auto also has new electronics and i was genuinley amazed by how good this transmission now it, very very suprised.

The statesman no longer feels like driving a land boat. LOL. It felt like a much much smaller car, and very nimble, was amazing how i could fling it around and it would just follow what i wanted it to do, completley like the other one, which i never felt confident in throwing around. Very impressed, was thinking it wouldn't handel that well since it is a grandpa's car.

LOL

Anyway i think when the motoring press get their hands on it they will be equaly impressed

i thought you were describing how my phoon handles until i looked at the thread more closely.

commo finally catching up to what we already have :sm_headba

[stevz]

Originally Posted by JEM

sure you were driving the new commodore?? Your description sounds alot like a falcon...

In all seriousness though, you say you are just selling them, but it's quite obvious that you are (based on your posts here and on LS1), that you absolutely love the commodore and are excited no end about it...

So can you identify anything negative about it?

Does someone making some positive comments about the new Commodore bother you that much? I have read your posts both here and on LS1 and from day one you have bleated nothing but negativity towards the VE.
The Falcon is not the pinnacle of design and engineering in the automotive world as you seem to think. The Commodore has not only caught up to the Falcon but comfortably surpassed it in many areas. Give credit where it is due.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by stevz

Does someone making some positive comments about the new Commodore bother you that much? I have read your posts both here and on LS1 and from day one you have bleated nothing but negativity towards the VE.
The Falcon is not the pinnacle of design and engineering in the automotive world as you seem to think. The Commodore has not only caught up to the Falcon but comfortably surpassed it in many areas. Give credit where it is due.

The BF was a significantly better vehicle than the VZ.... by a long shot.
BA/F "leap-froged" Holden by a fair margin when it was introduced, as you'd expect from a significant model change.
But From what has been mentioned in the press and released by Holden themselves about its specification and appointment in regards to technology id say all the VE has done is catch-up with BF..
The question now is will this be enough for this model to mearly catch the BF, when in my mind it should have given ALLOT more..

[blackahcdx]

Originally Posted by JEM

sure you were driving the new commodore?? Your description sounds alot like a falcon...

In all seriousness though, you say you are just selling them, but it's quite obvious that you are (based on your posts here and on LS1), that you absolutely love the commodore and are excited no end about it...

So can you identify anything negative about it?

The cars we drove were "pilot" build cars, and they had stickers on the dash saying that they weren't production cars and some things may not be to production specs.

I didn't find much not to like, although the steering wheel is a bit thinner, i think and i really like having a thick steering wheel.

Also some sharp edges to the auto gear leaver.

I didn't get much time to really play with the features of the car so i can't comment on how easy operation of those things are, but as a car to drive it leapfrogs both the VZ (which isn't hard) and the BF (which drives great).

I can't wait to see a comparisson with the BF

[JPFS1]

Originally Posted by stevz

Does someone making some positive comments about the new Commodore bother you that much? I have read your posts both here and on LS1 and from day one you have bleated nothing but negativity towards the VE.
The Falcon is not the pinnacle of design and engineering in the automotive world as you seem to think. The Commodore has not only caught up to the Falcon but comfortably surpassed it in many areas. Give credit where it is due.

Sorry Stevz, but you can't be further from the truth.

I can be totally critical of the Falcon, and have the right, to be critical of the commodore, or for that matter any car.

I comments towards VE have not all been negative, but when i have, i have sufficiently backed up my claims, whether it be my subjective opinions relating to styling or engineering topics.. eg. the discussion with Dacious.

Now you are claiming that VE has comfortably surpassed Falcon.... back it up with credible knowledge.

[JPFS1]

Originally Posted by blackahcdx

The cars we drove were "pilot" build cars, and they had stickers on the dash saying that they weren't production cars and some things may not be to production specs.

I didn't find much not to like, although the steering wheel is a bit thinner, i think and i really like having a thick steering wheel.

Also some sharp edges to the auto gear leaver.

I didn't get much time to really play with the features of the car so i can't comment on how easy operation of those things are, but as a car to drive it leapfrogs both the VZ (which isn't hard) and the BF (which drives great).

I can't wait to see a comparisson with the BF

Fair enough.

Yes, the comparisons will be very interesting, and i look forward to my own comparisons.

[ltd]

JEM you're gonna be waiting a while for that credible knowledge mate - unless you call supposition credible evidence.

[Fordoldie]

Originally Posted by Shockwave XR8

Now I have learnt I am blind, should I be envious of your one eye?

Whats one eyed about stating the obvious? An all new model will nearly always be more advanced than an updated model that was originally designed last century. I have driven and owned cars on both sides of the fence and cannot see what is possibly less superior to the BF? Sure the BF is more superior to any other large car but Holden have just surpassed it with their new model. There is nothing to be ashamed of as a Ford lover.
If we look at it from an open minded perspective its a no brainer really and all the childish petty comments here wouldnt be an embarrassment to any mature Ford enthusiast

[ltd]

Fordoldie, I think what has gotten the ire of a few up is the blanket statement that it will surpass BF. How can you say that without actually seeing it in the flesh, sitting in it, driving it and then finally owning it and all the inherent problems it may/may not have. Plenty of manufacturers have put out new cars that do not surpass the previous car, daewoo, kia, even Holden with the VT2 and the 5.7 litre "rattlin rod" engine, as well as the alleged fuel economy on the VE being very marginal over the previous model.

At the end of the day, the VE is untried and untested and once it comes onto the market assumptions such as yours will be able to be proven. At the moment all we have is supposition. Either way, I hope the VE does surpass the BF as all it will do is force ford to react even stronger.

[Fordoldie]

Originally Posted by ltd

Fordoldie, I think what has gotten the ire of a few up is the blanket statement that it will surpass BF. How can you say that without actually seeing it in the flesh, sitting in it, driving it and then finally owning it and all the inherent problems it may/may not have. Plenty of manufacturers have put out new cars that do not surpass the previous car, daewoo, kia, even Holden with the VT2 and the 5.7 litre "rattlin rod" engine, as well as the alleged fuel economy on the VE being very marginal over the previous model.

At the end of the day, the VE is untried and untested and once it comes onto the market assumptions such as yours will be able to be proven. At the moment all we have is supposition. Either way, I hope the VE does surpass the BF as all it will do is force ford to react even stronger.

Yes you are right ltd, I agree with you on that basis.
One can only assume the manufacturers allowed for some testing and trials in their $1.2 billion spend.
And the models you mentioned all outsold their predecessors regardless of what a few think of them with the later doing so dramatically.
I have spoken personally to 3 people who have driven the car - one of them being a cynic to the max and he was blown away. Everything else I have read or seen is only positive. There are no negatives except from those who HAVE NOT SEEN IT and only positives from those who have. I base my "supposition" on that evidence alone just as a jury would do in a court of law I guess
I also have a fairly in depth knowledge of what it is up against in the market and I have not seen or been shown anything remotely close.
Along with others here I am proud of what is locally produced regardless of brand as we all should be and I will not brand or bag anyone for "sticking up for their own" (as is their right)
You seem to be an intelligent person with good literacy and I enjoy reading soom of your posts however you let yourself down on occasion by resorting to "brand bashing" and name calling.
Cheers

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Fordoldie

Yes you are right ltd, I agree with you on that basis.
One can only assume the manufacturers allowed for some testing and trials in their $1.2 billion spend.

I wont be assuming anything, i'll make informed judgement once its been sold and in the market for a while rather than just assuming "its got to be better cause its new"....
First of all the car hasnt been sold to the public yet, there is NO evidence of quality or drivability beyond what the Holden spin doctors (and staff) have released in their marketing statements.

Originally Posted by Fordoldie

There are no negatives except from those who HAVE NOT SEEN IT and only positives from those who have. I base my "supposition" on that evidence alone just as a jury would do in a court of law I guess

There are also allot of "positives" being sprouted by people who havent seen it yet either...
Jury's make decissions based on Facts presented to them, in the case of the VE there is no evidence yet because AGAIN, there isnt any cars in the market yet.

Originally Posted by Fordoldie

I also have a fairly in depth knowledge of what it is up against in the market and I have not seen or been shown anything remotely close.

So you've not only seen the VE, but you've had one for some time, driven it back to back against the BF and done a comprehensive comparrison? enlighten us please.

Some people automatically "assume" NEW is BETTER, this is not allways the case, especially where a platform has significantly change, history shows completely new models suffer in quite a few areas till the first update, time will tell, on paper at least it looks to have caught up with the BF in specification, beyond that though its all conjecture and "fanboy" stuff, in the real world NO-ONE will know the result V BF yet..

[Fordoldie]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I wont be assuming anything, i'll make informed judgement once its been sold and in the market for a while rather than just assuming "its got to be better cause its new"....
First of all the car hasnt been sold to the public yet, there is NO evidence of quality or drivability beyond what the Holden spin doctors (and staff) have released in their marketing statements.
There are also allot of "positives" being sprouted by people who havent seen it yet either...
Jury's make decissions based on Facts presented to them, in the case of the VE there is no evidence yet because AGAIN, there isnt any cars in the market yet.
So you've not only seen the VE, but you've had one for some time, driven it back to back against the BF and done a comprehensive comparrison? enlighten us please.

Some people automatically "assume" NEW is BETTER, this is not allways the case, especially where a platform has significantly change, history shows completely new models suffer in quite a few areas till the first update, time will tell, on paper at least it looks to have caught up with the BF in specification, beyond that though its all conjecture and "fanboy" stuff, in the real world NO-ONE will know the result V BF yet..

Your comments and sarcasm are exactly what I was referring to earlier - school boy stuff. I can base my opinion on whatever I want that is up to me. Why are you being so defensive?
If I can drive a current model VZ and think it is comparitive and very competitive with current model Falcon, then it is easy to see that the new Commodore looks better than VZ. It is also easy to see that it is higher specced than VZ, and it most certainly drives better than VZ. Given that evidence one can ASSUME that it is better than both VZ AND Falcon. SUBJECT to not falling apart, or exploding without warning, the current drivetrains have already been proven in previous models of Holden or GM cars.
If Ford had just released the same car with a Falcon badge I would be saying the same stuff. Got nothing to do with Brands my good chap.
What is your facination with "fanboys" anyway? Does it have anything to do with having another blokes picture as your signature? D)

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Fordoldie

Your comments and sarcasm are exactly what I was referring to earlier - school boy stuff. I can base my opinion on whatever I want that is up to me. Why are you being so defensive?
If I can drive a current model VZ and think it is comparitive and very competitive with current model Falcon, then it is easy to see that the new Commodore looks better than VZ. It is also easy to see that it is higher specced than VZ, and it most certainly drives better than VZ. Given that evidence one can ASSUME that it is better than both VZ AND Falcon. SUBJECT to not falling apart, or exploding without warning, the current drivetrains have already been proven in previous models of Holden or GM cars.
If Ford had just released the same car with a Falcon badge I would be saying the same stuff. Got nothing to do with Brands my good chap.
What is your facination with "fanboys" anyway? Does it have anything to do with having another blokes picture as your signature? D)

If you think the VZ is very close to the BF then you have no clue at all. Every road test had an easy win to the Falcon. VE is just playing catch up.

[JPFS1]

I think most of the negative comments about VE have come about because of the hype surrounding the car, then ultimately being released and looking like it isnt a 1 BILLION dollar make over.

Sure there are people that do understand where the money has gone, but you ask any non-enthusiast about the VE and they will tell you what they have been telling me... It looks too much like the old car, looks like a falcon, 380 etc. They are not overwhelmed by this car like most have been expecting... because afterall, this is "Australia's most important car"....

So what has Holden achieved with VE and how does it compare with the BF??

It has been re-skinned

OK so it's been freshened slightly over the VZ, but by no means is it setting any new themes or can be said that it actually looks any better than the falcon. Nor does it set any innovative design trends. Something many were expecting??

Engines and Transmissions

Basically all carry over items and can be said that the V6 isn't as competetive in power and economy, as Ford's IL6. Just look at the industry standard outcomes for fuel consumption. The Holden V8 also seems to struggle to achieve improved results over the previous VZ model even though they have the new GM 6spd Auto.

Chassis and IRS

This is where it should get interesting.

The BF chassis is proven. Ford have developed rear impact crash since AU and have continuously enhanced all aspects of the chassis. Ford have had more experience with more advanced IRS systems, all these factors will play a big role in how competetive Holdens first attempt at these area's will stack up against the BF. It is in these areas that VE will have to prove itself.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Fordoldie

Your comments and sarcasm are exactly what I was referring to earlier - school boy stuff. I can base my opinion on whatever I want that is up to me. Why are you being so defensive?
If I can drive a current model VZ and think it is comparitive and very competitive with current model Falcon, then it is easy to see that the new Commodore looks better than VZ. It is also easy to see that it is higher specced than VZ, and it most certainly drives better than VZ. Given that evidence one can ASSUME that it is better than both VZ AND Falcon. SUBJECT to not falling apart, or exploding without warning, the current drivetrains have already been proven in previous models of Holden or GM cars.
If Ford had just released the same car with a Falcon badge I would be saying the same stuff. Got nothing to do with Brands my good chap.
What is your facination with "fanboys" anyway? Does it have anything to do with having another blokes picture as your signature? D)

Thankyou for proving my point... your arguement is lacking credibility and substance, rather than constructing a position which shows an understanding of the topic you've degenerated your post into what looks like a frustrated ill conceived rambling...

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by JEM

I think most of the negative comments about VE have come about because of the hype surrounding the car, then ultimately being released and looking like it isnt a 1 BILLION dollar make over.

Sure there are people that do understand where the money has gone, but you ask any non-enthusiast about the VE and they will tell you what they have been telling me... It looks too much like the old car, looks like a falcon, 380 etc. They are not overwhelmed by this car like most have been expecting... because afterall, this is "Australia's most important car"....

So what has Holden achieved with VE and how does it compare with the BF??

It has been re-skinned

OK so it's been freshened slightly over the VZ, but by no means is it setting any new themes or can be said that it actually looks any better than the falcon. Nor does it set any innovative design trends. Something many were expecting??

Engines and Transmissions

Basically all carry over items and can be said that the V6 isn't as competetive in power and economy, as Ford's IL6. Just look at the industry standard outcomes for fuel consumption. The Holden V8 also seems to struggle to achieve improved results over the previous VZ model even though they have the new GM 6spd Auto.

Chassis and IRS

This is where it should get interesting.

The BF chassis is proven. Ford have developed rear impact crash since AU and have continuously enhanced all aspects of the chassis. Ford have had more experience with more advanced IRS systems, all these factors will play a big role in how competetive Holdens first attempt at these area's will stack up against the BF. It is in these areas that VE will have to prove itself.

Pretty fair assesment, specification wise they've keep allot the same and improved it in other areas, to match BF spec.
I think Holden have "oversold" the sizzle to some degree, the more i look at the VE the more it looks like a revamped Commodore, which is exactly what it is, and to be honest what i would have expected.
Pricing in my mind is puzzling, discounting a new model from the get go leaves them vulnerable to people thinking they're worried its going to struggle to sell against its competition on its merrits, dollar for dollar.
Personally I like its looks and i think it is a good looking car, and it looks like its had a smooth transition from the VZ design, it certainly shows a close resemblance to its previous sibbling.
I just think too much adulation and expectation was lumped on it before release, maybe people would be happier with its looks if so much wasnt said before release...
Lets face it, current design trends are limited to consumer demand and expectation, there's only so many ways you can design a wheel arch or door etc and keep its asthetics acceptable.

[Laminge]

Listen

If you have to take swipes at each other I will just ban you.

Simple

[Smoke Pursuit]

The big thing with these cars is the fact that they are very close to each other nowadays, back in the early 90's Holden had the refinement and brand image they wanted, build quality wasnt one of their strong points (read VN) but every second man and his dog wanted one.

As for now the cars are very close on alot of points, design cues, refinement, build quality (or lack of in some cases). How either one can be leeps and bounds ahead of the other is beyond me, they are designed using many of the same testing programs and techniques, both companies are forever stealing ideas off the other to try and boost their sales.

The VE will be a very nice car, whether its better then the BF is something that i guess a few of us will never know as we will probarly never drive one, but at the end of the day it can't be much better then the Falcon, theres no new exciting technology from what Ive read. Would I buy one? Probarly, I am so over buying the one brand that someday I will have to actualy try one for size, im sure theres things ill hate about it but at the sametime things that it will probarly do better then the Falcon.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by blackahcdx

this thing about outsources parts is crap. There was a lot of beat up about Holden dumping some aussie parts suppliers. But what the media failed to mention that a lot of these contracts went to other aussie part suppliers.


Now after seeing the car at the dealer roadshow on friday night i have to say it is just amazing what Holden have done to the car. The stance, the proportions, and surfacing is just totaly unlike any other commodore. The panel gaps are all even, everything lines up, the interior quality is top notch.

The head Holden guy that did the presentation asked me what i thought of the new cars and i told him "it makes the VZ look like a pile of dinosaur ****"

He laughed :p

I'll let u guys know how the cars drive after i go to the drive day at eastern creek tomorrow.

Also will get to drive the new Captiva AWD wagon, the staesman/caprice and the new Camry sized Epica

Gotta love your comments about Build quality and panel allignment.

I remember when the first truck load of BA's arrived just down the street and they were getting unloaded, most of them were Futuras / XT / XR6 NAs, the build quality on these initial cars was outstandard, everything lined up, trims were neat and tidy. Sadly this didnt last for long, it seems Holden and Ford are good at building better quality products when they need to, specially for initial dealer launches etc. Im pretty sure any vehicles supplied to media companys, put on stands at motor shows etc all have that extra bit of effort put into them before they role off the line, thats just a fact of life i guess.

[blackahcdx]

The all new 4 Cylinder Camry has a rating of 9.9l/100km makes the Commodores and Falcons 10.9 look very impressive.

I wonder if toyota will be hounded in the media for their fuel consumption rising?

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by blackahcdx

The all new 4 Cylinder Camry has a rating of 9.9l/100km makes the Commodores and Falcons 10.9 look very impressive.

I wonder if toyota will be hounded in the media for their fuel consumption rising?

Drove past one today. They look terrible. I'd rather pay an extra couple of bucks per week in petrol than drive a marshmallow/fridge on wheels.

Toyota's pledge to concentrate on more exciting styling hasn't worked.

[Bucket]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Drove past one today. They look terrible. I'd rather pay an extra couple of bucks per week in petrol than drive a marshmallow/fridge on wheels.

Toyota's pledge to concentrate on more exciting styling hasn't worked.

A little bit unrealistic when its all coming from Toyota USA...

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Bucket

A little bit unrealistic when its all coming from Toyota USA...

Well Toyota now has there own design studio in Australia, and they poached ex Ford designer Nick Hogios, so they must have some input into the design.

[Aussie Falcon]

A video I spotted on DRIVE http://media.drive.com.au/?source=in...ash=0&t=33L4T5
that talks about dash electronics in the VE and how they tested it. It was interesting that the display includes a help file.

[Teki04]

Interesting to read the new VE is RWD with a 50:50 weight distribution...

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Well Toyota now has there own design studio in Australia, and they poached ex Ford designer Nick Hogios, so they must have some input into the design.

....and there are still a few p***ed of Ford people at that one!!!

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by Teki04

Interesting to read the new VE is RWD with a 50:50 weight distribution...

In a couple of pics i have seen it looks like it's close to it, Mostly other models were very low riding in the rear when going hard or down front when going into corners this seems more centred.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by SlickHolden

In a couple of pics i have seen it looks like it's close to it, Mostly other models were very low riding in the rear when going hard or down front when going into corners this seems more centred.

You can tell by looking at pictures of the car its got 50:50 weight distribution? :

[Full Spectrum]

I never said it was 50:50 from pictures, I Said it looked close to it :