My incident with a speed camera operator

[Casper]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

okay guys, take a step back here.

A speed camera operator does not equal the Gestapo.

By any length of the imagination. Period. As a person with Jews in my family, I feel atleast somewhat qualified to speak to that point. If speed camera operators executed every person they caught speeding without trial, you might be close. This is not happening though, and to compare it isnt justified nor warranted..

As I said, it was an extreme comparison. What I was pointing out is that if something is morally and ethically wrong to the vast majority of the population (which I believe it is and is supported by recent statistics publised in a very large metro newspaper...something in excess of 90% opposed) then the excuse of "I am only doing my job" is lame at best and criminally ignorant at worst.

Originally Posted by sourbastard

Are speed cameras causing more road fatalities? Maybe. But there is very little hard data to support that. The same statistics you could use to support a theory that drivers are just becomming more stupid, or that poor driver testing and pointless logbook licensing is allowing more and more morons behind the wheel. Simply saying we have more speed cameras, and we have more road fatalities, does not equal a conclusion. ..

It is impossible to state that they are causing more fatalities however, based on the TAC's own statistics, they are doing NOTHING to stop the fatalities.
What to see the statistics? They are all here: http://www.aufalcon.com/Articles/tac.htm

Originally Posted by sourbastard

There are hundreds of variables, and every accident is unique and has to be considered individually...

This is absolutely correct... and by the same logic each speeding infringement should be considered individually based on the circumstances. Not just a photo and a "guilty as charged" fine in the mail.

Originally Posted by sourbastard

Should speed camera operators do their job? Absolutely. Like it or not, it serves as a deterrant to excess speed in many cases(obviously not all), to argue that it doesnt wouldnt lend any credibility to your claim that people are having accidents because they are continually looking at their speedo, trying not to speed.

There is no proof that is acting as a deterrent and, based on the fatalities listed on TAC, it certainly isnt working to prevent the sole purpose of why it was implimented. Being a complete failure at that it has now become, quite clearly, a revenue excersise.

Originally Posted by sourbastard

Lets face the facts though, your true objection is to the legislation that sets the criminal tolerance for that speed where an infringment is incurred, not the operator who is certainly ONLY doing their job.

Still no excuse. Would you be saying the same if they were fining people for having long hair or brown eyes, simply because the government said it was their job? Facts are that the speed camera's have had a zero impact on the road toll, is purely a revenue operation (read theft) and these peoples, by there own actions, are supporting it. To say it is just a "job" is legitimising something that is clearly wrong to over 90% of the population. Sanitising it does not make it right.

Originally Posted by sourbastard

If the limits get raised tomorrow to 10%, will you still object to them having a job and feeding their family? That type of branding of an entire group of people as guilty for your woes, IS Nazism at its core, that is the only comparison that could be made.

If they raise the limit to the ADR required 10% I would be very happy. Personally I could then see the camera's as having an impact as a deterrent and not as a revenue stream. It has been said that the vast majority of camera fines are all for under 10kph. In the majority of cases these people were far from dangerous hoons and had no intention of speeding, and would never have been booked by an officer of the law.

Originally Posted by sourbastard

Should they quit in disgust at what the legislation is? Absolutely not. At the end of the day if they dont do it, someone else will. And at the end of the week consider that the government writes legislation, and can enforce it as strictly as they wish, even so far as zero tolerance. .

If they all quit in disgust it would be a wake up call to the government. If the government were to try to enforce a zero tolerance than it just proves to all it is revenue. They will be hard pressed for reelection now, maybe they should go zero tolerance because I personally think a mouldy pice of cheese could both run and win an election against them if they did.

Originally Posted by sourbastard

What the counter balance is to that, is you the people. If you have a gripe, protest, complain, write letters, get the automotive industry and associations in line with your way of thinking, involve media, apply pressure to the government, and get the bloody law changed.

This is all hapening already. Unfortunatly the present government seems to be totally out of touch with reality and addicted to the revenue.

Originally Posted by sourbastard

I saw someone write something about speedo error above. If the car industry produces a speedo that reads incorrectly to the point of criminal infringement, have you considered that they might start having to worry about liability?

Car manufactures have to comply to ADR's, which say 10%. They are doing this. It is the government (through the speed camera contractors and operators) who have ignored the ADR's and gone for the easy money. ADR's are there for a reason and, unfortunatly for us, our little state government has chosen to ignore it. The legality of this is questionable in its own right.

Originally Posted by sourbastard

Ma and Pa kettle dont know jack about speedo error, if Pa kettle is doing 60 in his brand new under warranty camry and he gets a ticket, who is he going to blame. Where should he send his ticket and ask that it be paid? Where should he send his lawyers? If the product is defective from the factory to the point of being the cause of criminal offenses, there is liability.

They dont know jack, that is correct. They assume that the speedo is correct. As far as a manufacturer is concerned, it is, to the specifications of the ADR's they are obliged to conform too. Its not there fault that the government of just 1 state of Aust has gotten so greedy that it has chosen to ignore this country wide standard.

Originally Posted by sourbastard

Theres plenty of angles to this to get big players thinking alike, what we need is a concerted effort, not a hissy fit.

It will take the Government booted out in a landslide. Everything else is already being tried but when the revenue addition kicks in and the media have not got a clue what "truth without spin" or "an article without shock value/ratings" then the only answer is for the people to voice themselves at the ballot box.
Until that happens the people involved (operators, contractors and government) should be put in the spotlight and pressured as much as possible to stop the theft.

This is, of course, only my opinion.

[Full Noise]

A speed camera usually sets up on Waverley Road, however, when they set up their speed camera so close to the corner of our side street with their Rav 4 you cannot see oncoming traffic from the left. How this contributes to road safety I don’t know?
So I just started to walk around near the edge of the road with my reflective safety vest on and everyone slowed down. The cops did a few drive bys to see what was going on but what can they do? I was quite happy for the speed camera to stay there because as long as I was standing out there with my vest on no-one was getting booked by this camera. You’re better off knowing where they are and stopping their revenue stream.

Cheers, Danny

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by Casper

As I said, it was an extreme comparison. What I was pointing out is that if something is morally and ethically wrong to the vast majority of the population (which I believe it is and is supported by recent statistics publised in a very large metro newspaper...something in excess of 90% opposed) then the excuse of "I am only doing my job" is lame at best and criminally ignorant at worst.

I know everyone hates the law, and it may well be lame, but we have plenty of people who are going to fill the vacancy on the dole queue if everyone one of them left tomorrow. Theres no point in targetting them or even hating them. They cant change the law, they wont stop enforcing it, and they arent the real problem. Law enforcement is a machine, its a system. What you programme into it, is what you get out of it. If it stuffs up, change the programme, dont replace the monitor cause it showed you something you didnt want to see.

Originally Posted by Casper

It is impossible to state that they are causing more fatalities however, based on the TAC's own statistics, they are doing NOTHING to stop the fatalities.
What to see the statistics? They are all here: http://www.aufalcon.com/Articles/tac.htm

This is absolutely correct... and by the same logic each speeding infringement should be considered individually based on the circumstances. Not just a photo and a "guilty as charged" fine in the mail.

There is no proof that is acting as a deterrent and, based on the fatalities listed on TAC, it certainly isnt working to prevent the sole purpose of why it was implimented. Being a complete failure at that it has now become, quite clearly, a revenue excersise.

They stop me from speeding when im in Melbourne, so thats 1 person atleast it effects :P as for the traffic rocketing past me wherever I go in Vic though, I cant speak for them.

Originally Posted by Casper

Still no excuse. Would you be saying the same if they were fining people for having long hair or brown eyes, simply because the government said it was their job? Facts are that the speed camera's have had a zero impact on the road toll, is purely a revenue operation (read theft) and these peoples, by there own actions, are supporting it. To say it is just a "job" is legitimising something that is clearly wrong to over 90% of the population. Sanitising it does not make it right.

It is wrong, but no I cant agree that they are to be blamed for bad legislation. If this was a larger issue and lives were at stake, yes, I would expect them to act, but this is not the case. This is a fine. Not a death penalty. A 200 dollar fine has little impact on a persons ethics. If any.

Originally Posted by Casper

If they raise the limit to the ADR required 10% I would be very happy. Personally I could then see the camera's as having an impact as a deterrent and not as a revenue stream. It has been said that the vast majority of camera fines are all for under 10kph. In the majority of cases these people were far from dangerous hoons and had no intention of speeding, and would never have been booked by an officer of the law.

I'd be happy too, and I agree, most people in many of those cases would not be fined(Unless the cop was in a particularly foul mood) that being said we are leaving more and more of our policing to equipment, and not humans. And you cant negotiate with a machine. Thats part of the revenue directed policy our legislatures like, and will get, unless something is done by us.

Originally Posted by Casper

If they all quit in disgust it would be a wake up call to the government. If the government were to try to enforce a zero tolerance than it just proves to all it is revenue. They will be hard pressed for reelection now, maybe they should go zero tolerance because I personally think a mouldy pice of cheese could both run and win an election against them if they did.

It would definately be a wakeup call, as soon as the unemployment rate runs into negative numbers it might even happen. Two miracles in the one day would be nice.

Originally Posted by Casper

This is all hapening already. Unfortunatly the present government seems to be totally out of touch with reality and addicted to the revenue.

As our media become more americanized, we will be fed their spin, fear, death, doom & destruction, until the government make us safe from ourselves. This is part of the problem I believe. Unless the media focus on the problem with our spin isntead of "Drunk underage teen speeds family into crash of doom!", the problem wont change, the media wont change their spin, unless they are given a reason to. Read, better ratings.

Originally Posted by Casper

Car manufactures have to comply to ADR's, which say 10%. They are doing this. It is the government (through the speed camera contractors and operators) who have ignored the ADR's and gone for the easy money. ADR's are there for a reason and, unfortunatly for us, our little state government has chosen to ignore it. The legality of this is questionable in its own right.


They dont know jack, that is correct. They assume that the speedo is correct. As far as a manufacturer is concerned, it is, to the specifications of the ADR's they are obliged to conform too. Its not there fault that the government of just 1 state of Aust has gotten so greedy that it has chosen to ignore this country wide standard.


It will take the Government booted out in a landslide. Everything else is already being tried but when the revenue addition kicks in and the media have not got a clue what "truth without spin" or "an article without shock value/ratings" then the only answer is for the people to voice themselves at the ballot box.
Until that happens the people involved (operators, contractors and government) should be put in the spotlight and pressured as much as possible to stop the theft.

This is, of course, only my opinion.

Hardy's followed local and federal laws when it started mining, manufacturing and processing asbestos. That did not limit their liability at all.

There is no legal precedant of which im aware of someone actually taking a manufacturer to court over this matter. Therefore its impossible to say what the ruling would be. "Following the rules" doesnt always lead to legal safety in the corporate world. I'd be interested to see the result. I think even a hint of liability in a test case would bring the state government and the car industry to the table very quickly to resolve the issue.

I may be wrong, but this wasnt the cornerstone of my argument, which was speed camera operators all being labeled scum for no reason.

[Casper]

I think you and I actually agree on most points except 2.

1. I do not see a speed camera operator as an "innocent" party just doing their job. I see them as people willing to bypass their morality and ethics for a buck. Personally I find this sickening and will never support them or their choice. Lets just say that they have made the choice and, as part of that choice and their job criteria, they will have to expect people to dislike, disrespect and diagree with them. Travel is just part of my job, I dont like it but I accept it. In their case being treated as a sellout and theif is part of theirs. If they dont like it...quit. Otherwise they just have to live with it.

2.

A 200 dollar fine has little impact on a persons ethics

I strongly disagree. Many thousands of people have been mudered, assaulted, and maimied for a lot less than that. Families have been torn apart, lives ruined and people scarred for life for sums of money much less than this. Never underestimate how quickly a small amout of money can completely override someones ethics given the right circumstances.

[Sourbastard]

I think that was my point shane, my ehtical limit doesnt start till atleast 500 bucks :P

seriously though, you cant expect people to quit their "I sit in a car all day and read porn while the camera does all the work" jobs over $200 fines. a couple hundred clams doesnt buy a whole lot of moral outrage and indignant protesting.

If their car was emitting death rays into small villages, then they would have the moral obligation to ignore the command.

Me on the other hand, id run the death rays for free.

[Dez]

i think its a bit naive to think that a change in government will do anything. no matter how much an opposition claims they will do something different to the current government, once they are in office, they are just as money hungry as the people they are replacing.

[XRated]

Blardy 'ell! I'm not even going to read the rest of this thread :P

[xdc351]

Just look what you've started :

Seriously, it did get way off track. I think it will be better now.

[XRated]

Haha nah 'tis okay :P I shared my boring news - it's just good to see it started such a mixed view of opinions haha

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Dez

i think its a bit naive to think that a change in government will do anything. no matter how much an opposition claims they will do something different to the current government, once they are in office, they are just as money hungry as the people they are replacing.

Not if they make it a major platform for election. They have already made noises about returning the 10% rule.

I think it may be naive...but to not try is stupid.

[Brute33]

Casper ...If you believe anything an aussie politician says about reverting back to the old 10% rule , then i'd reckon you are completely losing it mate . They'd sell their grandmother on a St.Kilda street corner for $1 if it got people to vote for them.

The laws regarding speed cameras vS the ADR rules are complete bullshit . I just pick my time and place to give it heaps , and think about them while the rears are engulfed with tyre smoke, or the needle is at 5000rpm. I'm happy to cop my FAIR whack in life if i've done wrong , no problems with it , but this system is not fair and these pricks know it , so therefor the sytem can GAGF. F**K speed camera operators and politicians who make these bullshit rules .
I completely and utterly loath them.

[Dez]

Originally Posted by Brute33

Casper ...If you believe anything an aussie politician says about reverting back to the old 10% rule , then i'd reckon you are completely losing it mate . They'd sell their grandmother on a St.Kilda street corner for $1 if it got people to vote for them.

lol, sad, but so very true.....thats why we can vote for whoever we want....and we're damned both ways.....pick the guy with the bigger eye brows, thats why johnny is killin it :P

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by Dez

i think its a bit naive to think that a change in government will do anything. no matter how much an opposition claims they will do something different to the current government, once they are in office, they are just as money hungry as the people they are replacing.

Hang on a minute, the true meaning of (small l) liberalism is non government intervention. That’s why John Howard was not going to get involved in the whole limiting the speedo’s to 130 kph fiasco.
In the last state election (Vic) the Liberal candidate was a bloke called Dennis Naphthine who lives in Portland, approximately 360 km’s from Melbourne. This bloke even received flak from his own party because he went out into the community and did a few days in a child care centre. He even rode in a semi-trailer on one occasion back to his Portland office to get an idea of how others in the community see things. This bloke has also spent around twenty years as a country vet and does a hell of a lot of driving. When this bloke said he would restore the 10% tolerance I believed him. Unlike the rest of the numpties at Spring Street who are ex solicitors, with their heads so far up their backside’s, this bloke was down to earth.
That’s probably why he isn’t opposition leader any more.

And to Bracksy, I hope you make some friends in big business pal because you’re going to be looking for a new job after the next election. I’ll even volunteer my services to help them move your crap out of the Premiers Office.

Cheers, Danny

[Dez]

well maybe he would have been the 1 to change it...but since he is no longer in that position, it'll probably stay the same as it is now, no matter who's running the show

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Dez

well maybe he would have been the 1 to change it...but since he is no longer in that position, it'll probably stay the same as it is now, no matter who's running the show

Thats the way, nothing like complete apathy to get the government ready to bend you over and give it to you again.

With that sort of attitude you probably deserve them.

[Schmaigz]

I'm thinking a workers strike rather than every camera operator quitting their job might get something done/be more realistic.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Schmaigz

I'm thinking a workers strike rather than every camera operator quitting their job might get something done/be more realistic.

That I would love to see. Given that the unions are the Bracks governments (labor) power base, it would send a 8.9 scale earthquake right through the socially challenged at Spring street.

[Dez]

Originally Posted by Casper

Thats the way, nothing like complete apathy to get the government ready to bend you over and give it to you again.

With that sort of attitude you probably deserve them.

i'm just being realistic really....

i drive on the same roads as everyone else in victoria, and i haven't got a fine yet....and i rarely stare at my speedo.....I don't know what to say, but at the moment, the law is there, if you break it, you'll pay the fine. Right or wrong, at this point in time, its in place, and until it changes, if you break it you will be punished.....thats the harsh reality.

[Full Noise]

That might be the case, however, for the 80 or so % who have committed the heinous crime of going three kph over the speed limit may disagree. If they reinstated the 10% tolerance and placed speed cameras in areas prone to fatalities they would probably have some support.
Did anyone else notice the total absence of speed cameras for the three or so weeks prior to the last election?

Cheers, Danny

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Dez

i'm just being realistic really....

i drive on the same roads as everyone else in victoria, and i haven't got a fine yet....and i rarely stare at my speedo.....I don't know what to say, but at the moment, the law is there, if you break it, you'll pay the fine. Right or wrong, at this point in time, its in place, and until it changes, if you break it you will be punished.....thats the harsh reality.

Doesnt make it right. Certainly doenst mean we all have to bend over and accept it like you have. I look forward to the day you get a fine for doing 63kph in a 60 zone... I'll remember to point you to this thread.

Sorry Dez but its people like you who allowed it to happen and its people like you who will continue to allow it to happen.

[DanXR6T]

Lets face it, the monetary fine isn't a deterrant at all. In fact I'd stretch it far enough to say that in our society having a monetary fine system gives some people the soapbox that they are looking for.

But we all know governments are up the duff. With our current points systems of 12 points, why not cut the fines completely, and whack a 5 point demerit on it. Within 12 months there would be considerably less cars on the road, or more unlicensed drivers on the road. People would be forced to use public transport and this is a good thing for all.

We live in a society that believes in bandaid solutions and knee jerk reactions.

And people who hack rubbish on speed camera operators must also hate bank tellers, tax auditors, parking officers, etc cos these people all take money away for very little in return to the individual.

My biggest gripe is that if politicians were subject to the same laws as company directors, they'd all be in jail (albiet they'd probably make a jail especially for them on Hamilton Island)

Dan..

[Dez]

so why dont the rest of the people like you put a stop to it.....

i''ve watched people sit on what they think is 102km, just so they dont get done doing 3 over.....people will always do the maximum speed they think they are allowed. increase allowances and people wont stay at 103km/h. they will go that extra bit till they push the 10% barrier, then when they break that, they'll complain that they were only 1km/h over the 10% allowance, and it will never end.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Dez

so why dont the rest of the people like you put a stop to it.....

i''ve watched people sit on what they think is 102km, just so they dont get done doing 3 over.....people will always do the maximum speed they think they are allowed. increase allowances and people wont stay at 103km/h. they will go that extra bit till they push the 10% barrier, then when they break that, they'll complain that they were only 1km/h over the 10% allowance, and it will never end.

There is a point where pushing it is asking for it.
Just to give you an idea though, in my car, 3kph is less than the thickness of the actual needle. If I accel briskly to 60kph I'm still well in first gear. As soon as I lift off the car goes into 2,3,4th in one go. That change alone will continue to accelorate me to 63 or 64 kph. No offense Dez but keeping an auto 4cyl to 60kph is not that hard, unfortunatly for some of us we have cars that will go 3kph over the limit just by looking at the throttle.
I find it close to impossible to stay at 60kph without looking at the speedo every 15 seconds. God knows how the guys in GT's and the likes can do it.

[Dez]

if i put my foot on the accelarator with the intent to gain speed, my car will comply, albeit less rapidly than yours.

it is not hard for me to speed etc, but i seem to have control of the throttle.....if you took the point you just used as part of your argument against speed cameras, the only response you would get is that maybe you should not accelerate so rapidly, and you wont have a problem...

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Dez

if i put my foot on the accelarator with the intent to gain speed, my car will comply, albeit less rapidly than yours.

it is not hard for me to speed etc, but i seem to have control of the throttle.....if you took the point you just used as part of your argument against speed cameras, the only response you would get is that maybe you should not accelerate so rapidly, and you wont have a problem...

you dont get it do you? What I'm saying is that, for the vast majority of cars and the vast majority of drivers (more powerful cars amplifying the situation) the ability to maintain a speed that is within 3kph is simply impossible without spending all you concentrated effort staring at the speedo and not the road ahead.
Now maybe your just a super driver with skills of a F1 racer but I'm not. A simple sneeze or adjusting myself in the car will quite often result in a movement of speed (up or down) that is greater than 3kph. So this law could quite conceivably cost me my license after 12 sneezes in 3 years. Yeah, good law that one.

[DanXR6T]

If your car goes an extra 3-4kms over the limt on overrun, then why not just stop accelerating at 3-4kays under the limit? Does the extra 3 secs you gain in time affect things?

That was just a sarcastic post LOL..

Dan... _2:

[xdc351]

Originally Posted by Axeman82

And people who hack rubbish on speed camera operators must also hate bank tellers, tax auditors, parking officers, etc cos these people all take money away for very little in return to the individual.

With the exception of parking officers, the others are doing a job legally and have very strict laws on them to stop wrongdoing. Speed camera's and parking fines run in a different world where grabbing those last few bucks is more important than truth or justice (you don't want to hear my list of unlawful parking officer behaviour).

Dez and Dan, the reason most people get so worked up about the 3kmh tolerance is not because it means we can only speed by 3kmh before being caught, but because our speedo's are manufactured with a 10% tolerance built in.... which means my speedo can be SHOWING me 60kmh an I can still be fined because the actual speed i'm travelling is 66kmh. So through through no fault of my own i'm a target. Now assume for a second that the thickness of my speedo needle covers about 2kmh on the dial, I could be travelling as high as 68kmh without even knowing or intending to break the law. Thats the reality, and thats where bracks and co have been robbing us blind and labeling us as criminals. How is that fair?

[Dez]

and all i am saying is that every single point you put forward to justify your argument only gives them more fuel for theirs!

you tell them that its too hard to stay within the 3km/h in a performance car, they'll just tell you why they think performance cars are bad etc etc etc!

you tell them that a sneeze will push your needle to the wrong side of 103km/h, they'll tell you to sit under 100km, and that you will no longer have a problem

i am not saying i agree with this law, i have never said that. When i look at a debate, i see both sides, and see both parties arguments.

as for the "no offense" thing, none taken, i'm quite comfortable with driving a 4cyl car....i chose it.

[Dez]

Originally Posted by xdc351

With the exception of parking officers, the others are doing a job legally and have very strict laws on them to stop wrongdoing. Speed camera's and parking fines run in a different world where grabbing those last few bucks is more important than truth or justice (you don't want to hear my list of unlawful parking officer behaviour).

Dez and Dan, the reason most people get so worked up about the 3kmh tolerance is not because it means we can only speed by 3kmh before being caught, but because our speedo's are manufactured with a 10% tolerance built in.... which means my speedo can be SHOWING me 60kmh an I can still be fined because the actual speed i'm travelling is 66kmh. So through through no fault of my own i'm a target. Now assume for a second that the thickness of my speedo needle covers about 2kmh on the dial, I could be travelling as high as 68kmh without even knowing or intending to break the law. Thats the reality, and thats where bracks and co have been robbing us blind and labeling us as criminals. How is that fair?

i never said the law was fair. i said it is in place, and i deal with it. i also never said i agree with current laws.

[Laminge]

I agree with the debate here that watching the spedo is a constant effort, especially on the newer cars as road noise is reduced inside the cabin.

I used to travel over 60,000ks a year, much less now, and the amount of near misses because of having to watch the spedo i would hate to say.

I regulate my speed in approriate areas, and I supose that has saved my hip pockets, but 3k variance is just silly.

It is not an acceptable rule that we should tollerate!