diesel falcon

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by XR Martin

V8s accounted for 30% in the VE days, and at the end was around 50%.

That was late VE & VF by which which fleet sales had evaporated & real car (retail) people knew that the V8 Commodore was a good car at a good price.

They knew the end was near. 2004 to 2008 was different.

Have a look at Falcon sales figures in that era.

Dr Terry

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

You're still comparing apples with Durians when you're talking US wages and Australian wages - the minimum wage in the US is like $7/hour and if you work hospitality its like $2/hour and they rely on tips.

I don't believe production line workers rely on "tips". Do we know any real auto worker's wages figures ?

Dr Terry

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

I don't believe production line workers rely on "tips". Do we know any real auto worker's wages figures ?

Dr Terry

I don't know anyone who worked on the production line at Ford or Holden, so no, do you?

Would be good if people who did can share what they got paid, surely we have some here.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I don't know anyone who worked on the production line at Ford or Holden, so no, do you?

Would be good if people who did can share what they got paid, surely we have some here.

I've spoken to several ex-GMH & Ford workers & many could not believe that the average dude got by on "only" $1000-$1200 take home pay. Many had to take a serious pay cut, to get a "normal" job after the factory closure.

They were all very secretive about their actual wage at Ford/GMH.

Dr Terry

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

I've spoken to several ex-GMH & Ford workers & many could not believe that the average dude got by on "only" $1000-$1200 take home pay. Many had to take a serious pay cut, to get a "normal" job after the factory closure.

They were all very secretive about their actual wage at Ford/GMH.

Dr Terry

Curious to see what the actual figures are, confirmed by someone.

$1000/week take home is **** all, its about $60K range.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Curious to see what the actual figures are, confirmed by someone.

$1000/week take home is **** all, its about $60K.

It might be **** to you & I don't know about Melbourne, but many unskilled workers in Sydney get that or way less.

The Australian basic wage in 2023 is around $820 per week GROSS! That's 41K or around $700 per week take home. It was less than that in 2016/2017 when the factories closed.

Dr Terry

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

It might be **** to you & I don't know about Melbourne, but many unskilled workers in Sydney get that or way less.

The Australian basic wage in 2023 is around $820 per week GROSS! That's 41K or around $700 per week take home. It was less than that in 2016/2017 when the factories closed.

Dr Terry

The Median wage in Australia is $1250/week:

Median employee earnings was $1,250 per week, up $50 (4.2%) since August 2021.

Median hourly earnings was*$37 per hour, up $1 since August 2021.*

https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/la...nings/aug-2022

I spoke to someone who works as one of the entry level managers at Safeway and she was 24 and on $75K, albeit salary - thats above the median wage the ABS quotes.

Curious to see what these supposed wages everyone was crowing on about at Ford/Holden for the production line employees, lets see some actual numbers, I highly doubt they were on 6 figures.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

The Median wage in Australia is $1250/week:



https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/la...nings/aug-2022

I spoke to someone who works as one of the entry level managers at Safeway and she was 24 and on $75K, albeit salary - thats above the median wage the ABS quotes.

Curious to see what these supposed wages everyone was crowing on about at Ford/Holden for the production line employees, lets see some actual numbers, I highly doubt they were on 6 figures.

The "median" wage includes all the public servants (at all 3 levels) who are on $100K-$300K for actually doing jack ****. Median figures are just statistics & we all know about statistics

I'm talking about the many people I know who work for the figures I've quoted & I'm not talking about Safeway managers either. I'm referring to the many who left school at year 10 & had no tertiary eduction & who are basically 'unskilled".

I don't think many production line workers were on more than $100K, but I believe that some were close to that figure. Again I don't know real figures.

Dr Terry

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

The "median" wage includes all the public servants (at all 3 levels) who are on $100K-$300K for actually doing jack ****. Median figures are just statistics & we all know about statistics

I'm talking about the many people I know who work for the figures I've quoted & I'm not talking about Safeway managers either.

I don't think many production line workers were on more than $100K, but I believe that some were close to that figure. Again I don't know real figures.

Dr Terry

APS3 who is the entry level public vegetable is on that mid $60K mark and the level up APS4 is on $73K-$80K so they're not all highly paid like you make out, APS3-6 are the customer facing drones doing all the work and even at APS6 they're still sub $100K PA at APS6-4.

So again, I doubt that these production line workers circa 2016 were getting paid the millions everyone seems to blame and point the finger at.

[GasoLane]

Very little of the above has anything to do with thread title!

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

So again, I doubt that these production line workers circa 2016 were getting paid the millions everyone seems to blame and point the finger at.

I didn't say "millions", all I said was that the Aust. motor was uncompetitive when compared to the US, based on their pay levels.

Dr Terry

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

I didn't say "millions", all I said was that the Aust. motor was uncompetitive when compared to the US, based on their pay levels.

Dr Terry

The US also has a lower minimum wage, lower cost of living, has a population of over 330 million people and is the worlds biggest economy so a product sold only in the US or if you expand to North and South American market can live on its own.

Comparing apples and durians again like we discussed at the start of this circular discussion

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

Very little of the above has anything to do with thread title!

I believe that it does.

We began talking about Ford's possible trialling/testing of a Diesel Falcon. This lead to the $40 billion which the Feds "invested" in the local motoring industry to keep it on 'life support'. All in vein in the end.,

Dr Terry

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

The US also has a lower minimum wage, lower cost of living, has a population of over 330 million people and is the worlds biggest economy so a product sold only in the US or if you expand to North and South American market can live on its own.

Comparing apples and durians again like we discussed at the start of this circular discussion

Australia could not compete in a world car market for several reasons, simple as that.

Dr Terry

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

I believe that it does.

We began talking about Ford's possible trialling/testing of a Diesel Falcon. This lead to the $40 billion which the Feds "invested" in the local motoring industry to keep it on 'life support'. All in vein in the end.,

Dr Terry

Oh right, so trialling a Falcon, gov support for Ford and GM, employees wages here and the US.

Wandering so far off topic you'll be landing in New Zealand soon.

Now back to Diesel Falcons please.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

Oh right, so trialling a Falcon, gov support for Ford and GM, employees wages here and the US.

Wandering so far off topic you'll be landing in New Zealand soon.

Now back to Diesel Falcons please.

Fair comment.

I think most of the comments so far are on the money. The Diesel Territory was a goer, but a Diesel Falcon sedan, was there ever any real demand for such a beast ?

Dr Terry

[arm79]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

From memory $40M to both manufacturers under some 'green local car' incentive.

Holden turned on flex fuel and Ford put the Ecoboost in the Falcon.

If I remember correctly KRudds Green Car Innovation Fund had a $200m pot. And the funds expired if projects weren't completed by a particular date/timeframe or within narrow scope.

Holden got $140m and put in the Cruze assembly line, Ford got $40m for the Ecoboost and Territory and Toyota got the rest to install a Hybrid Camry or Prius line.

I think thats how it went. But yes, I realise there was other little things with the cash too. Its just the big projects that stand out.

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I reckon the biggest travesty was the work done to put the diesel in the Territory in the early 00s, then the clown they had as a CEO pulled the rug out at the last second.

A massive mistake for the Territory as without the diesel it sealed its fate too early. They lost big in the market place, lost the advantage and momentum.

But the big reason they ignored the Territory is because Ford Aus had engineering lead on the new Ranger, as we know it now, at that time. They were responsible for developing a world market vehicle and Territory didn't get a look in until that was all over.

Originally Posted by XR Martin

They did the 4cyl Falcon because they were assured by the Government that their fleets would purchase it as they had a 4cyl only policy.
The sales never eventuated.
They all bought 4cyl suvs instead, and Territory didn't get a look in because despite being Australian, wasn't 4cyl.

Yep, they ****ed them over good by not keeping their promise.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Polyal

IMO, a TDI falcon would have been good for the country folk as diesel supply is more consistent.

Also I believe the fuel consumption would have been better for a daily than the I6...the I6 drinks like a fish around town. Hence why it would popular in the Territory.

I dont have the sale numbers but it would be interesting to see how many petrol vs diesel Territory's were sold once TDI was available.

It's not a straight comparison as they limited the petrol to RWD versions didn't they? No option for petrol AWD?

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

Personally I would have purchased a diesel Falcon over the petrol based on my own experiences with territory.
bugger all Petrol Territory's were sold towards the end, I think they cost around 2 grand more for the Diesel too

To compare for the Falcon an 08 XF Jag with the same 2.7 diesel delivers 7.5L/100 average

Are you sure that's right? I thought the diesel was more expensive?

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

That would have been Tom Gorman.......



Gorman rode on the tails of success setup by Geoff Polites. As the freshness of the BA Falcon started to wane and sales begun to taper then fall, he copped the blame.

At the end of the day, his ability to manage Ford Australia ended up in the hands of the US executives, he was simply the puppet tasked with acting out their directives.

It's telling that, like many before and after him, Gormon left the Ford Motor Company after his stint in Australia.

Ended up CEO of Brambles if I remember right.

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

Nonsense! Holden introduced entirely new engines with direct injection. E85 or not, the new engines were far more fuel efficient.

New transmissions, new diff ratios, new exhaust & mounts, extra noise insulation. Direct injection engines are noisy like Diesels.

Dr Terry

LOL. They were just upgraded versions of what they had. Especially the V8. And they were pretty much a straight fitment swap, next to nothing involved in fitting them. Unlike the 4 cylinder in Falcon. DI noise I mentioned in my previous post, so yes, it would have required a little NVH tweek.

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Unless they're paying paid a bowl of rice a month, you will never compete with labour costs of Thailand, end of story.

Curious to what the guys who worked on the production line were paid, do we have any Ford Australia employees who worked in non skilled labour roles with Ford Australia? What were you getting paid if you don't mind divulging.

The irony is Chinese labour is now more expensive than Mexican labour, which has higher skills and is cheaper.

Vietnam and Cambodia the new China. Lots of work shifting there.

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

I'm not talking about the old "bowl of rice" workers in Asia.

I don't know real up to date figures, but I'm willing to bet that the average "unskilled" production line worker in the USA (read UAW member) earned substantially less than those on the Aussie production line.

Dr Terry

Legacy UAW workers, which I think new hires become after 7 years I think, were/are higher paid than us. Only new hires make less. The whole wages thing is a joke anyway, because the union looked into it and our wages were comparable with the US, UK, Germany and South Korea.

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

The Median wage in Australia is $1250/week:



https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/la...nings/aug-2022

I spoke to someone who works as one of the entry level managers at Safeway and she was 24 and on $75K, albeit salary - thats above the median wage the ABS quotes.

Curious to see what these supposed wages everyone was crowing on about at Ford/Holden for the production line employees, lets see some actual numbers, I highly doubt they were on 6 figures.

None were on 6 figures working a 40 hr week that's for damn sure. Can't remember what it would have been like back then though, it was 7 years ago. Maybe 60K? Anyone who thinks they were making anywhere near 100k has rocks in their head. Only way to get that would be shed loads of overtime worked, and overtime was a dirty word in the last 10 years of manufacturing, because it simply wasn't needed as sales were tanking, so it was very hard to come by.

Even now, base wages for trades in PD isn't that close to 100k. Maybe 85? Plenty of overtime for some areas though, so can easily push that up.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

None were on 6 figures working a 40 hr week that's for damn sure. Can't remember what it would have been like back then though, it was 7 years ago. Maybe 60K? Anyone who thinks they were making anywhere near 100k has rocks in their head. Only way to get that would be shed loads of overtime worked, and overtime was a dirty word in the last 10 years of manufacturing, because it simply wasn't needed as sales were tanking, so it was very hard to come by.

Even now, base wages for trades in PD isn't that close to 100k. Maybe 85? Plenty of overtime for some areas though, so can easily push that up.

Yep, so its no way near as blown out as its made to be when people start pointing fingers at the guys on the production floor putting these things together, as much as I suspected

Its a convenient excuse though, throw **** at the guy on the bottom and make it out like its their fault, meanwhile the guy steering the ship makes ****ty decisions, leaves and gets paid out for their deeds - Tom Gorman and the diesel Territory, bringing it back on topic

[whynot]

I would be interested in hearing from ex-Taxi drivers their views on a diesel taxi. Around that time, they were the prime buyers of ex-Gov vehicles. Also in that time window, most Gov and Council fleets were just starting to move away from Falcon and Commodore due to fuel star ratings. So, would be interested if the Taxi industry would prefer diesel or LPG to go with their Falcon wagon with vinyl seats.

A few weeks ago I stumbled across a review of an old Territory on ReDriven and was surprised at the scathing remarks about the reliability of the diesel engine verse how good the Barra was. Accepting this as true, would the Taxi industry stay away from the diesel once the word had gotten out?

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by whynot

I would be interested in hearing from ex-Taxi drivers their views on a diesel taxi. Around that time, they were the prime buyers of ex-Gov vehicles. Also in that time window, most Gov and Council fleets were just starting to move away from Falcon and Commodore due to fuel star ratings. So, would be interested if the Taxi industry would prefer diesel or LPG to go with their Falcon wagon with vinyl seats.

A few weeks ago I stumbled across a review of an old Territory on ReDriven and was surprised at the scathing remarks about the reliability of the diesel engine verse how good the Barra was. Accepting this as true, would the Taxi industry stay away from the diesel once the word had gotten out?

To be fair the taxi industry only bought 2nd hand & historically use their own back yard mechanics fitting old mixer LPG systems instead of more modern systems. So I don't think Ford would ever factor them in when they manufactured a new car.
But if there were 2nd hand diesel sedans available then yes the taxi industry would gobble them up just like they use diesels in every other country.
its just that we have none to choose from...
re the Redriven review its only HP fuel pumps & a belt change that forms the basis of his opinion. & the Pump is not the engines fault.

[roKWiz]

Did somebody say diesel Falcon.



Popular taxi conversion back in the X series days.



Will go this route with the panel van on bio diesel when the crossflow finally gives up the ghost.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

The V6 is an absolute boat anchor, the last good V6 out of GM was the Ecotec - thats why I reckon the V8 was so successful for Holden and not so much for Ford.

That and the XR6 Turbo made the 5.4L 4V look like a turd rolled in glitter, it wasn't until the Miami came around that the V8 held its own.

Yes just got reminded to keep the Ecotec by a mechanic once more. Again.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

It's not a straight comparison as they limited the petrol to RWD versions didn't they? No option for petrol AWD?

Yep, that's why I didn't buy two more Territories after 2007. Put the funds into the house which I hated at the time, but that paid off big.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Yep, that's why I didn't buy two more Territories after 2007. Put the funds into the house which I hated at the time, but that paid off big.

I can remember a few clients at the time complaining about how heavy on fuel they were.

[Sprintey]

With ZF was noticeably better than 4 speed, I was able to maintain 11.2l/100km from new which was the sticker rating and we live within 30kms of major town so it's a mix of country and urban driving.

It's not all that bad when you consider how much more the diesels chew now with all the Adblue and DPF gear that's bolted on to them, and far less in maintenance. I've read some Landcruiser forums for towing and non towing and just shook my head.

Even most recent Nullarbor trips the Terry got as good as 10.02L/100km, and petrol was 50cpl cheaper, or more!

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

It's not all that bad when you consider how much more the diesels chew now with all the Adblue and DPF gear that's bolted on to them, and far less in maintenance. I've read some Landcruiser forums for towing and non towing and just shook my head.

Even most recent Nullarbor trips the Terry got as good as 10.02L/100km, and petrol was 50cpl cheaper, or more!

Wouldn't know, as I don't use electronic controlled diesels and never will, I just remember the comments usually from their leadfoot wives who drove them. The farmer himself usually had a old trayback diesel ute.

[Sprintey]

FWIW my 2H in HJ60 got 10.5 day in day out, 9.5 was best I ever saw. Towing it went up to 12.5 with a 1600kg van. Lightyears better consumption than today's heavier versions and all mechanical to boot.

Talked to bloke with an HD in the last week, he reckoned 179 was best Holden motor ever.

It's seriously tempting to go back to such simplicity.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

FWIW my 2H in HJ60 got 10.5 day in day out, 9.5 was best I ever saw. Towing it went up to 12.5 with a 1600kg van. Lightyears better consumption than today's heavier versions and all mechanical to boot.

Talked to bloke with an HD in the last week, he reckoned 179 was best Holden motor ever.

It's seriously tempting to go back to such simplicity.

slightly off topic but I like the sound of that 186 diesel in that link mr FairmontGS posted. I've never had a problem with Holden L6's.

[smoo]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Did somebody say diesel Falcon.



Popular taxi conversion back in the X series days.

image

Will go this route with the panel van on bio diesel when the crossflow finally gives up the ghost.

Goes better than my mates old VK Commo with an LD28 in it.
I think he paid $1500 for it back in 2010. The rear screen louvres is probably worth that alone these days.



Does the Toyota 1hdt fit in an X series or has anyone done it? That will give it some balls comparable to the crossflow.