Has your ZF milkshaked poll - POST 2012 ONLY

[prydey]

well, i have read all the threads on the subject, and i still don't believe the problem is that prevalent.

i believe those that are unlucky enough to have failures early on, are due to residual casting sand getting in to the exchanger and acting like sand paper. these would be covered under warranty anyway.

failures later in life are more than likely the result of incorrect maintenance of the cooling system.

i just had my gearbox serviced @ 160000km. no massive difference between before and after except the 'shunt' when selecting first gear whilst rolling to a stop is gone. i fitted a new exchanger at the same time.

i'm aware that many people have bypassed the cooling system with no apparent negative side effects, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. oil temp warm up and stability will be better when cooled via coolant. why else would every manufacturer use this method.

[prydey]

also, does anyone know if there have been any reported failures in the ecoboost cars (assuming they have the same setup) or are the failures pretty much confined to the 6cyl engine with the cast iron block?

[Vesper Martini]

^^ Posting stuff like that on an open Forum suggests it might be the Pot calling the kettle black

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Originally Posted by prydey

well, i have read all the threads on the subject, and i still don't believe the problem is that prevalent.

i believe those that are unlucky enough to have failures early on, are due to residual casting sand getting in to the exchanger and acting like sand paper. these would be covered under warranty anyway.

failures later in life are more than likely the result of incorrect maintenance of the cooling system.

i just had my gearbox serviced @ 160000km. no massive difference between before and after except the 'shunt' when selecting first gear whilst rolling to a stop is gone. i fitted a new exchanger at the same time.

i'm aware that many people have bypassed the cooling system with no apparent negative side effects, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. oil temp warm up and stability will be better when cooled via coolant. why else would every manufacturer use this method.

I have done extensive monitoring of my ZF6 since removing the heat exchanger and installing a PWR air/oil cooler, the trans oil gets to its minimum optimum operating temp of 30C in 2 - 5mins regardless of the ambient temp and maintains a stable operating temp consistently at 30C lower temps than the heat exchanger, it does not need to be heated, but it does need to be cooled, there are no negative side effects after installing an air/oil cooler, show me one post with evidence of negative effects, a ZF tech has confirmed with me that the installation of an air/oil cooler will extend the life of the ZF6 and its fluid and I have zero risk of a "Milkshake", the manufacturers install heat exchangers simply due to cost and onerous emmision control requirements, we owners are not constrained by such requirements, once out of warranty we can risk it or fix it, I and many others chose to fix it

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by gmoughton

I have done extensive monitoring of my ZF6 since removing the heat exchanger and installing a PWR air/oil cooler, the trans oil gets to its minimum optimum operating temp of 30C in 2 - 5mins regardless of the ambient temp and maintains a stable operating temp consistently at 30C lower temps than the heat exchanger, it does not need to be heated, but it does need to be cooled, there are no negative side effects after installing an air/oil cooler, show me one post with evidence of negative effects, a ZF tech has confirmed with me that the installation of an air/oil cooler will extend the life of the ZF6 and its fluid and I have zero risk of a "Milkshake", the manufacturers install heat exchangers simply due to cost and onerous emmision control requirements, we owners are not constrained by such requirements, once out of warranty we can risk it or fix it, I and many others chose to fix it

If it's appropriate to run your transmission 30°C cooler than every other manufacturer who used the 6hp26 then why aren't they doing it?

I prefer my transmission operating at a stable temperature.

@Prydey. V8 here and voted no.

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

If it's appropriate to run your transmission 30°C cooler than every other manufacturer who used the 6hp26 then why aren't they doing it?

I prefer my transmission operating at a stable temperature.

@Prydey. V8 here and voted no.

The ZF6 has an optimum operating temp range of 30C to 120C, a heat exchanger does not allow the trans to run at the cooler end of that range, whereas the air/oil cooler does and with no risk of "Milkshake"

The manufacturers run with heat exchangers to supposedly heat the trans more quickly to the minimum optimum temp of 30C and theoretically reduce emissions, but this is at the expense of a risk of a "Milkshake" and because it uses coolant at 95C+ it continues to heat the trans to unnecessarily high temps.

Here's a comparison of the two, OEM and PWR heat exchanger/trans temp, engine coolant temp https://fordforums.com.au/showpost.p...&postcount=608
maybe someone could provide a better graph of the heat exchanger/trans operating temps, its the only one I could find on the Forum.

And here PWR air/oil cooler and ZF6 temp (blue), engine coolant temp (green), as you can see stable temps https://fordforums.com.au/showpost.p...&postcount=692

The reality is that the ZF6 has a designed in strategy to get it to 30C quickly, it does not need a heat exchanger to do that for it, but it does need a cooler to cool it and maintain stable temps.

The air/oil cooler runs the trans at stable and lower temps within the optimum operating temp range.

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by gmoughton

The ZF6 has an optimum operating temp range of 30C to 120C, ...

Where does this come from George, especially the 30^oC number?

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

Where does this come from George, especially the 30^oC number?

From a ZF tech, by telephone and email, here, https://fordforums.com.au/showpost.p...&postcount=216
and here, http://fordforums.com.au/showpost.ph...&postcount=219

[Silver Ghia]

Thanks George. From the correspondence you received from ZF (assumed accurately copied), I only read that the cooler temperature is beneficial for extending the service life of the oil, no mention of the transmission life being extended with the lower operating temperatures, that you may have stated in your query to ZF.

And I note that 30^oC to 120^oC is normal transmission operating temperature based on the warmup and high temperature strategies inherent in the transmission operation, and is perhaps not the optimal operating temperature range as you state.

[arronm]

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

If it's appropriate to run your transmission 30°C cooler than every other manufacturer who used the 6hp26 then why aren't they doing it?

I prefer my transmission operating at a stable temperature.

@Prydey. V8 here and voted no.

They don't do it because it has a negative affect on the transmission. My tuner has first hand experience of the effects of oil/air cooler only. And that is premature wear and irregular shift patterns

With the amount of ZF falcons and territory's on the road the % of failures is minuscule.

Abviously it's nice to keep temps less than 100c , so if you have a high performance car or tow, an oil/air cooler in series with a factory heat exchanger is ideal

Another factor is changing the coolant with the correct type at the recommended intervals.

Follow this and the risk of a milkshake is the same is winning lotto, SFA.

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

Thanks George. From the correspondence you received from ZF (assumed accurately copied), I only read that the cooler temperature is beneficial for extending the service life of the oil, no mention of the transmission life being extended with the lower operating temperatures, that you may have stated in your query to ZF.

And I note that 30^oC to 120^oC is normal transmission operating temperature based on the warmup and high temperature strategies inherent in the transmission operation, and is perhaps not the optimal operating temperature range as you state.

The email is an exact copy, but it is not as detailed as what our conversation was, you only have my word that the conversation was as I stated, but, that is categorically what the tech told me, I can assure you I was very pleasantly surprised to hear what he had to say, the ZF6 is designed to operate at temps as low as -20C, 30C is only its minimum optimum operating temp for maximum fuel economy, not its minimum operating temp, and warm up strategy is designed in to the ZF6 programming to get it to 30C quickly, he told me without reservation that removing the heat exchanger and installing an air/oil cooler would extend the life of the fluid and the trans.

You can put your own spin on it if you wish, but I have posted exactly what was stated in our discussion

[richo77]

Havent posted in a while but I had my 2012 G6ET transmission serviced yesterday at 90k. I bought the parts 6 x1L ZF fluid @ $180, genuine Ford upgraded cooler (stamped late 2016) @ $230 and a Ryco trans service kit @ $30. Labour @ $200 from Technical Transmissions in Perth. Great job by them there, they know their stuff.

Old fluid was still pretty golden but the trans shifts like brand new again and more quiet. I'm keeping the car for another 2 years at most so a full external set up isnt justified for me.

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by gmoughton

The email is an exact copy, but it is not as detailed as what our conversation was, you only have my word that the conversation was as I stated, but, that is categorically what the tech told me, I can assure you I was very pleasantly surprised to hear what he had to say, the ZF6 is designed to operate at temps as low as -20C, 30C is only its minimum optimum operating temp for maximum fuel economy, not its minimum operating temp, and warm up strategy is designed in to the ZF6 programming to get it to 30C quickly, he told me without reservation that removing the heat exchanger and installing an air/oil cooler would extend the life of the fluid and the trans.

You can put your own spin on it if you wish, but I have posted exactly what was stated in our discussion

I'm only going by the message from ZF that you posted George, no spin at all. You're not understanding what I wrote above. It now seems you have had verbal discussion as well? Its not what you posted earlier..

Seems you're the one putting spin on it George.

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Here it is again,

Originally Posted by gmoughton

From a ZF tech, by telephone and email, here, https://fordforums.com.au/showpost.p...&postcount=216
and here, http://fordforums.com.au/showpost.ph...&postcount=219

[arronm]

Spin on it????

[Vesper Martini]

Id just like to add that Ford Australia are not the only ones that fit internal radiator trans coolers, many vehicles have them. and they work fine.

My concern is rushing off to get one fitted because they heard about Milk shaking.
this is of course their decision.

But Please if you do make sure its fitted properly.

I my experience aftermarket installs equate to most failures in older cars.
this is a good article showing some bad install methods

http://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/231

[SensationFG8]

I thought there was a recall to adress this, at least for FG XR8's.

[Mechan1k]

Originally Posted by SensationFG8

I thought there was a recall to adress this, at least for FG XR8's.

Very different setup ... FG XR8 used trans coolers in the radiators .... like the BA's

[arronm]

V8s and radiator transmission coolers has nothing to do with this thread

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by arronm

V8s and radiator transmission coolers has nothing to do with this thread

I think V8's should have their own question in the poll.

It would be interesting to see the failure rate of those as well. I haven't heard of a single case of a Miami milkshaking.

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Originally Posted by gmoughton

Here it is again,

So if anyone has bothered to read it properly, they have gone very quiet, apart from inane comment about spin

Where is the contra argument with supporting evidence?

Once again I find myself very disappointed with the response to perfectly relevant and qualified information, nonetheless I am happy in the knowledge that my message is getting through and many a "Milkshake" has been prevented.

Meanwhile there have been 3 "Milkshakes" recorded in the poll, 2 of which did the required servicing, so it is still happening, this logically suggests all the other "no" voters are at risk of a "Milkshake", small as it may be, and running their trans at unecesaryly high temps.

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by gmoughton

So if anyone has bothered to read it properly, they have gone very quiet, apart from inane comment about spin

Where is the contra argument with supporting evidence?

Once again I find myself very disappointed with the response to perfectly relevant and qualified information, nonetheless I am happy in the knowledge that my message is getting through and many a "Milkshake" has been prevented.

Meanwhile there have been 3 "Milkshakes" recorded in the poll, 2 of which did required servicing, so it is still happening, this logically suggests all the other "no" voters are at risk of a "Milkshake", small as it may be.

Oh, you wanted a response George.

All I can really rely on as fact is what ZF stated in their email to you. Any other information in addition to that could be misconstrued by yourself. One important thing learned in my career was to treat any verbal information with skepticism, it must be written. Whatever was said by ZF in the conversation, ZF confirmed only what was written in their email.

So, to separate the wood from the trees, here is the email you received from ZF.

By Email:

Hi George,

Normal transmission operation for ZF 6HP26 is between 30 - 120 degrees C. Before 30 degrees C we have warm up strategy and after 120 degrees C the transmission will enter high temperature strategy (Hot mode).

Oil checking overflow level is a 40 degrees C and depending on climate normal transmission oil sump temperatures can vary between 60 and 100 degrees C.

I don't see any issues with the temperatures you are talking about providing the oil flow to the transmission has not been restricted.

As your operation temps are lower I see this as a benefit for extending the service life of the oil.

Kind regards

Your ZF Service Desk
ZF Friedrichshafen AG
88038 Friedrichshafen,Germany

That message is what I based my response on in Post #39. Nothing more, no spin.

And how can you rely on those poll figures George? I take those numbers with a grain of salt as well.

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

Oh, you wanted a response George.

All I can really rely on as fact is what ZF stated in their email to you. Any other information in addition to that could be misconstrued by yourself. One important thing learned in my career was to treat any verbal information with skepticism, it must be written. Whatever was said by ZF in the conversation, ZF confirmed only what was written in their email.

So, to separate the wood from the trees, here is the email you received from ZF.



That message is what I based my response on in Post #39. Nothing more, no spin.

And how can you rely on those poll figures George? I take those numbers with a grain of salt as well.

Thanks Silver Ghia, Wasn't refering to you re spin by the way.
My word is my bond, I did not misconstrue anything and wrote down the conversation only minutes after, if you choose to ignore that information so be it, but I stand solidly behind it, the email alone is a strong argument for the air/oil cooler and on that basis i recommend anyone wishing to avoid a "Milkshake" to install one.

Until I received the call from ZF I too was sceptical re the possible negative side effects, but despite that had already removed the heat exchanger and installed the air/oil cooler, the call could have confirmed my fears, but it didn't and I was very circumspect when noting the details of that conversation I can assure you, it flew in the face (and still does) of the unsubstantiated misinformation being banded around this Forum, I have sustained continued critisim since first posting this information, positive and negative, but am happy in the knowledge that many a "Milkshake" has been prevented by sharing this information here.

Not a lot of point to having a poll if you ignore the outcome, it tells us it is still happening.

I am just an ordinary passionate Ford owner sharing info with fellow Forum members, no boat to push.

Regards, George

[mexicov]

preyday. Sorry, I voted but didn't read the conditions (my wife says this is only a man thing). Mine is a 2010 XT Falcon FG. However, I replaced the OEM exchanger with an air/oil cooler just before the warranty ran out, thus avoiding any possibility of a milkshake after that date. As a suggestion, would you consider changing the voting date to the date that the ZF was first introduced into the Falcon/Territory range (am not sure when that was).

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by gmoughton

Meanwhile there have been 3 "Milkshakes" recorded in the poll, 2 of which did the required servicing, so it is still happening, this logically suggests all the other "no" voters are at risk of a "Milkshake", small as it may be, and running their trans at unecesaryly high temps.

So just on those 3 one was a 2012 car mentioned previously in this Thread.
the next I couldn't find where they mentioned having a milkshake in any of their posts -doesn't mean it didn't happen but ..
The last I think was a V8 for the recall, but not actually determined as a Milkshake.
ill also add no SZ Territory's have reported the problem

[Mechan1k]

Originally Posted by mexicov

preyday. Sorry, I voted but didn't read the conditions (my wife says this is only a man thing). Mine is a 2010 XT Falcon FG. However, I replaced the OEM exchanger with an air/oil cooler just before the warranty ran out, thus avoiding any possibility of a milkshake after that date. As a suggestion, would you consider changing the voting date to the date that the ZF was first introduced into the Falcon/Territory range (am not sure when that was).

ZF was introduced in B-series from late 05 I think
ZF started in higher spec models in FG at the start from 08
ZF was in all Falcon from 06/10 when the running change was made to Euro4 (cat converter design changed) from memory and the 5R55 was dropped from the line up altogether.

[Silver Ghia]

What many dont seem to realise, the issue is not a ZF thing at all. The ZF transmission is irrelevant to the heat exchanger reliability. It just so happens the ZF transmission is fitted to the applicable Post 2012 Falcons.

The item in question is the heat exchanger type that is bolted to the side of the I6 engine near the starter motor, of which there apparently have been several versions over the years, even for the BTR/Ion transmission. Not to mention also the 5 speed auto that are in some FG's.

This particular poll was to determine the reliability of the post 2012 heat exchangers. But some owners appear to be confused on the applicability of their vehicle to reliably answer the poll correctly. Others put their vote in regardless, maybe so to see the results. How can the results be relied upon to be accurate?

And yes George, there is no point having a poll if the results are unreliable as this one is.

[mexicov]

There seems to be developing a “them” and “us” situation on this Forum regarding ZF transmission cooling. It is so unnecessary. There are those of us (like me) that believe the cost of installing the air/oil cooler (at about $600) is cheap insurance and great peace of mind against a transmission milkshake that could cost $6000+, and inconvenience, to repair. However, no-one can guarantee that this option will not cause long term damage despite the fact that some vehicles have done in excess of 50,000km without problems. On the other side, some members are prepared to accept the risk of a milkshake and the possible high cost of the repair in the belief that it is better to operate the transmission at the manufacturer’s designed temperatures. Some of these go to great expense to change their coolants annually or replace the OEM cooler every two years to reduce that risk. Others simply opt for “who cares” perhaps hoping to replace their car before the risk materialises.
I am a believer in the air/oil cooler. As I have said on this forum before, I will probably keep my car for about 15 years/ 200000 km. Is anyone prepared to guarantee that my OEM unit will not fail from internal corrosion in that time? However I can guarantee that I will never have a milkshake. I have done over 40,000km in cold Canberra since installing the air/oil cooler and the car seems to be running exactly at it did before the changeover.
I would not criticise anyone for whichever option they choose. “To each his own”.
Can I suggest that both “for” and “against” members agree to disagree, respect each others’ views and then simply post their experiences as they occur for the benefit of the Forum generally.

[Mercury Bullet]

Except we are being told it's safe to operate a transmission at 30°C on the say so of a person who works on a ZF help desk.

If that info came from one of the engineers who designed the box, then I might take notice.

I'll ask again...Why do all manufacturers use heat exchangers?
ZF help desk reckon you don't need one. Rolls Royce think you do. So do Ford.

Look I'm totally behind eliminating the problem (if there is one) but lets get the facts straight and to me a chat with a "ZF tech" doesn't cut it.

[arronm]

30c, box would be slipping like mad trying to generate heat and warm up. The box will think the heat exchanger has malfunctioned, because its programmed for the expected heat input from the coolant during start up.

Now if the box was tuned for the new cooling system, may be different.

So who that has fitted an oil/air cooler has had the tune re-calibrated. My guess is zero.

You just cant change things and hope for the best.

Car companies spend millions on development and calibrations. I am pretty sure they know better.

And mercury bullet, there is a problem, its usually a lack of maintenance.

But as we all know parts fail, even new ones. Its just bad luck if you get a dodgy one. The biggest problem is if the car is out of warranty the the bill will be large. Luckily if caught early enough a cross contamination (milkshake) doesn't always totally kill the box.