Ford Australia has announced it will no longer offer a V8 engine option in any locall

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by uranium_death

Anyway, most Falcons are purchased for fleets and most would not require/want a V8.

People who buy the Falcon as a means of transport would not require.
People who want a V8 would buy an XR8 or FPV variant.

If I bought a Fairmont Ghia, I wouldn't mind a V8 though, but I think the current 6 is good enough anyway.

That's the point too, 99.9% of people who want extra performance want the whole deal i.e: XR6T or XR8.... or FPV.. not a "sleeper", and besides that Ford wouldnt offer the engine performance without the requirement of sports suspension and brakes too...
Also the idea of limiting the better/more powerful engines to XR/FPV is to entice you to spend more anyway.

[Squalo]

Ahh, Ford did do that. Only it was Ford US, and as only Australia were using the Cleveland it was the Windsor. Ford US never stopped using them from there inception in the 60's.

Ford US ceased production of Clevelands in the Seventies - De Tomaso had to do a deal to buy Australian Clevelands for the Longchamps and Pantera, although the deal was not done directly with Ford Oz (that's a very interesting story in its own right).

They had injected 302s in the Mustangs from the mid 80's and injected 351s in the F series trucks well into the 90's. What more do you want?

A developed Cleveland, like Yoot postulated... the EFI F-series motor was a bomb. The 350 of the era wasn't a lot better, but at least GM kept at it (of course they had no other option, unlike Ford).

We got the 5 litre windsor in the E-series because thats all that was available after Ford Oz dropped the V8 in the mid 80's.

Agreed - Ford had broken up the local Cleveland tooling by that point (sob!)

That's why the heritage here is broken, but it never was in the US. Cleveland development had long stopped in the US, well before Australia stopped using it. The Cleveland was only used for a short period of time there, the Windsor was their V8 of choice.

Hang on - you can't say it was and wasn't broken in the same paragraph : )

And as far as the latest 6 litre Chev being a development of previous Chevs you are dead right. But it's not a development of Holden's V8.

No, but I don't think anyone suggested that it was. The point raised was that Ford could (should) have continued to refine the Cleveland, just as GM did with the 350.

Just a bit of a history lesson there. I'm sure someone will poke holes in it.

: )

I've been following the Ford V8 story since my dad bought an XB GT in 1976, and I'm still learning stuff all the time. There is a LOT of heritage there. Just a shame Ford can't trade on it with a modern day Clevo.

[Smoke Pursuit]

So has anyone ordered a 3V 5.4 in the last week??

: I can see a few hundred 5.4 Fairmonts and Ghias being built early next year if its true about them stock piling motors. Cant wait to see some Orion XLS utes running around with a Turbo Six option instead of V8

[DirtyHarry]

^^^

Well actually, I intend ordering a 3V Fairlane Ghia before the end of the year.

[Squalo]

Originally Posted by XR06T

not really to do with the topic but does anyone else have a problem with no manual territories?

Are they not available at all? It's been a while since I read up on them (probably since their release to be honest).

Most of the market for Territorys would be quite happy with autos, and those drivers looking for a 'drivers' car are probably not even considering them.

[Powdered Toast Man]

Originally Posted by Squalo

A developed Cleveland, like Yoot postulated... the EFI F-series motor was a bomb. The 350 of the era wasn't a lot better, but at least GM kept at it (of course they had no other option, unlike Ford).

No, it's a Windsor 302 not a Cleveland 302 AFAIK. Sole V8 to the Mustang since the mid '70s (apart from a brief stint with a smaller capacity 255ci V8 derived from the 302, that lasted about 2 years of the Fox platform. The Fox platform ran from '78 to '93). It was first fuel injected for the '86 Fox body Mustang and used until the 4.6 was introduced into the second series of the next model (that is the model first introduced in '94 and the shape you think of when imagining a late model 'stang that isn't the new one).

I didn't say that the 351W was a good engine, just that they used it.

Originally Posted by Squalo

Hang on - you can't say it was and wasn't broken in the same paragraph : )

I said the Aussie heritage is broken ie, going from Cleveland to Windsor. Well I would consider the Cleveland as being the spiritual aussie Ford V8 although we did have Windsors from the XR to the XW (289, 302, 351), including the GTHO phase 1. And then I went on to say the heritage wasn't broken in the US. It's all in the wording _2:

Originally Posted by Squalo

No, but I don't think anyone suggested that it was. The point raised was that Ford could (should) have continued to refine the Cleveland, just as GM did with the 350.

And my point was that Ford did continue to refine their 302 and 351 engines just as GM did with their 304 and 350 chevs, it's just they were windsors not clevelands.

There is a bit of continental confusion. The statement made was that "if the cleveland had been kept and developed there would be heritage". The cleveland was a mainly aussie used engine, the USA prefered the windsor. Ford USA did keep developing the windsor into a modern fuel injected engine. Therefore development of the cleveland would have only given aussie fords the heritage. Hence my comparison between the development of the 302/351W to the development of the GM 304/307/350, and the GM development also not being Australian heritage since it was not the development of the Holden 308.

I'm not saying that there is no heritage at all just that it has in fact actually been broken in both the Ford and Holden camps.

Originally Posted by Squalo

I've been following the Ford V8 story since my dad bought an XB GT in 1976, and I'm still learning stuff all the time. There is a LOT of heritage there. Just a shame Ford can't trade on it with a modern day Clevo.

I personally don't care too much about the heritage of the modular engine but I do see the point trying to be made with the whole heritage argument, especially related to the GT. And I also understand the thinking that the current GM engine is a development of it's previous engines. It's just that Ford took a radical leap into what was considered a modern design while GM stayed true to old school design and made it work much more effectively.

On a side note; if you cant tell, I am a Fox body Mustang buff. Sure they look as exciting as an XF, but they only weighed 1300kg which was light enough for the fuel injected 165kw 302 to get it to 60mph (97km/h) in less than 6.5 seconds. Your lucky to get below 8 seconds in a 165kw manual EB to EL Falcon.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by DirtyHarry

^^^

Well actually, I intend ordering a 3V Fairlane Ghia before the end of the year.

Better order it soon, they aren't building Fairlanes after Sept im told, i know where theres a 3V in QLD if your chasing one, PM me.

[Squalo]

I'm with you now, Powdered Toast Man ; ) It's all clear now when I re-read it. Very good info in that second post too.

1300kg, no wonder DJ got into that era of Mustang.

I agree with you that the Clevo is 'our' engine. Such a shame it was lost...

[EA Bogan]

as much as i hate to say it this could be the right decision. I only hope that the Barra inline engine will continue instead of being replaced by a whiny gutless V6. Twin Turbocharging or just a more agressive tune could provide 400+ KW on the 4.0 Turbo and blow alway V8s in both torque and power. Holdens Stone age Pushrod engines would have no hope against a Twinturbo F6 Typhoon. They just need to make the Boss 290 engine standard on the Fairmont Ghia and Force 8 as a midrange perofrmance enigne and a new golden age of Ford could begin.

[Tles]

Carsguide in the Herald Sun today has an article stating that Ford Oz wil be using the new all alloy 5.0 litre Jaguar V8 for the XF model from 2010 on. Supercharged too and base 365kw now that sounds promising!

[sleekism]

Correct me if I'm wrong here but wasn't the Australian Cleveland V8 different from the U.S. Cleveland V8??

I remember reading an article where drag racers in the U.S. would import Australian Clevelands as they had better head flow or lubrication or something.
Also wasn't the Cleveland 302 unique to Australia?

Also I think Australias performance heritage is based on the straight six and the 5 litre V8 more so than the 5.6 litre which is sad really as soon there won't be a straight six and the 5 litre V8 has already disappeared.

Speaking of the FOX Mustang it's really an interesting read the history of the post 1973 Mustang with it's experiments with turbo fours and HQ's push to make it a Mazda based FWD which resulted in a huge backlash.

[Powdered Toast Man]

Originally Posted by Squalo

I'm with you now, Powdered Toast Man ; ) It's all clear now when I re-read it. Very good info in that second post too.

1300kg, no wonder DJ got into that era of Mustang.

I agree with you that the Clevo is 'our' engine. Such a shame it was lost...

Thanks, Squalo. I even had to pull out my Mustang reference books .

I definitely would love to get my hands on a Fox Mustang, the '88 to '93 update with the 165kw 5 litre. They even had a Cobra version but it wasn't much more powerful than the regular 'stang. But I would have to relinguish my 300HP 3V because I couldn't afford both, and I'm not prepared to do that :eclipsee_

Does your old man still have the XB GT? Would be worth some good money nowadays.

Originally Posted by sleekism

Correct me if I'm wrong here but wasn't the Australian Cleveland V8 different from the U.S. Cleveland V8??

I remember reading an article where drag racers in the U.S. would import Australian Clevelands as they had better head flow or lubrication or something.
Also wasn't the Cleveland 302 unique to Australia?

Also I think Australias performance heritage is based on the straight six and the 5 litre V8 more so than the 5.6 litre which is sad really as soon there won't be a straight six and the 5 litre V8 has already disappeared.

Speaking of the FOX Mustang it's really an interesting read the history of the post 1973 Mustang with it's experiments with turbo fours and HQ's push to make it a Mazda based FWD which resulted in a huge backlash.

Yeah, I think that the aussie cleveland had a slightly different block and our own heads. And I think you're also right with the 302C, I think it was Ford Australia who designed it by reducing the stroke of the 351C.

The 2.3 litre 4 cyl was used in the Mustang up until the late '80s as the base engine. The SVOs featured a turbo charged version of the 2.3 that was quicker than the 302 V8 of the time, but that's not hard considering the V8 pumped out all of about 140HP (and thats HP not KW) in the early '80s. The V8 overtook it in the end though because as it's power rose it became more competitive and had much better reliability, as well as a crap load more torque.

That FWD Mazda based car that was to be the next Mustang actually became the Ford Probe. And the SN-94 Mustang was developed instead.

Gee, I'm full of useless information this week lol.

[Squalo]

Originally Posted by Powdered Toast Man

Thanks, Squalo. I even had to pull out my Mustang reference books .

Does your old man still have the XB GT? Would be worth some good money nowadays.

It was sold in February through Shannons in Sydney - $35k. Less than we'd hoped for but the old man was happy with that - bought by a dentist, who plans to give it to his son - who is 5!

Even after having owned it for 31 years, we learned a lot about it (and GTs in general) through this site during the lead-up to the sale. See the topic here:

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...ght=xb+gt+sale

Sad to see it go, but it was not practical for either of us to hang onto it.

[janddbone]

I remember reading an article on the I6 being dumped... It asked the question something along the line. Would you be willing to pay $2K extra per vehicle for the continuation of the barra engine? I know in my case the answer would be yes!!!

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by sleekism

Correct me if I'm wrong here but wasn't the Australian Cleveland V8 different from the U.S. Cleveland V8??

I remember reading an article where drag racers in the U.S. would import Australian Clevelands as they had better head flow or lubrication or something.
Also wasn't the Cleveland 302 unique to Australia?

Also I think Australias performance heritage is based on the straight six and the 5 litre V8 more so than the 5.6 litre which is sad really as soon there won't be a straight six and the 5 litre V8 has already disappeared.

Speaking of the FOX Mustang it's really an interesting read the history of the post 1973 Mustang with it's experiments with turbo fours and HQ's push to make it a Mazda based FWD which resulted in a huge backlash.

The australian built Cleveland blocks had thicker bores than the US built versions which were quite thin in the block walls and tended to crack. The NASCAR blocks were also made here and sold to the yanks. The 2V heads were also made here as the yanks only had the 4V versions. The 302 Closed Chamber heads were actually sold in the Ford SVO catalogue as C302B heads.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The australian built Cleveland blocks had thicker bores than the US built versions which were quite thin in the block walls and tended to crack. The NASCAR blocks were also made here and sold to the yanks. The 2V heads were also made here as the yanks only had the 4V versions. The 302 Closed Chamber heads were actually sold in the Ford SVO catalogue as C302B heads.

Bit off track there...

The US also made the 2V open chamber heads for their 2 barrel 351 Cleveland that powered torinos, mustangs etc...
C302B SVO heads are alloy high performance heads and are worlds apart from the cast iron aussie 302 cleveland heads!!!

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Bit off track there...

The US also made the 2V open chamber heads for their 2 barrel 351 Cleveland that powered torinos, mustangs etc...
C302B SVO heads are alloy high performance heads and are worlds apart from the cast iron aussie 302 cleveland heads!!!

My mistake. I always thought the Americans only had the 4V heads on their Clevelands.