Learners and overtaking

[flappist]

Originally Posted by The Snout

People bang on about having a 6 or 8 pot for overtaking but in the people I see on the road the biggest thing about overtaking is attitude and application. The amount of people I see driving a 6 or 8 and can't overtake while I sail past them in my 2.4L 4 pot is crazy.

It take all types and if you are the sort who doesn't overtake a lot, fine. But use some sense and give room in front for those that can go around you.

Unfortunately many have very low driving skill and tend to compensate for this by buying powerful vehicles under the false assumption that the extra performance will bail them out when their indecisive incompetence gets them into a dangerous situation.

400rwkw and brembos (and stripes and badges) are not a viable replacement for three dimensional spacial awareness and operational familiarity.

[GCRXR6]

Originally Posted by H.G

I wonder if its still a question on the test...
are you allowed to drive faster than the speed limit when overtaking?
it use to get so many people....

I believe it's still there, keeping in mind that the tests are of random questions.

And yes it is still an offence ... my son was booked for exceeding 100 while overtaking on the Bouldy flats only a few weeks ago.

[XRGhia]

As much as its illegal to speed up when overtaking, it's just too plain dangerous of you don't!!

I'm an L plater, and have done it a few times along Woy Woy Road and Wisemans Ferry Road, and have always made sure I had at least 200m clear sight, and can easily pass the slow moving car...

[Bushbasher]

Originally Posted by prydey

there is no rule saying you have to speed up. trucks manage to get by, all day every day. car drivers don't know patience!!

....again, it comes down to patience. if you come across a line of cars behind a slow moving vehicle, what makes you think your journey is more important than all those ahead of you?? just sit back and wait your turn.

I drive trucks and that isn't the case more times than not Prydey, usually it's numpty #1 going 80-90kph on the highway that is caught up to by numpty #2 who is too timid to pass but will sit in #1s' bumper, then Numpty #3 catches the pair and does the same thing but he or she now has 2 cars to pass and is too timid to do that .....and so it goes ............. so by the time car 4,5 & 6 join the train, each driver is faced with passing an ever longer row of cars and each is even less willing to pull out and go past the further back in the train they are. Yet none of these people think to back off and leave space because they're all waiting for numpty #1 to pass and god forbid they aren't right on the spot to either be next in line to indeed follow numpty #1 round the mobile chicane. When you're in a truck and on a time table this can be supremely frustrating. It's times like these, when I'm in my car, I'll sit off the train and wait for a nice straight stretch and just give it the welly and pass the lot of them given the opportunity. If I'm going 150-160 by the time I'm half way up the train, so be it, I'm carrying enough speed by that time to just button off and by the time I pull back in I'm already back down to 120 and ready to hit the CC and settle back in. And before you say to wait for a pass lane, most roads don't have pass lanes and I for one don't feel the need to sit behind a bunch of overly timid pussies for 30-40-50km at a time till the next town or junction where some of them might go away. If that makes me the devil incarnate in some people eyes then BOO HOO, get over it or learn to drive enough to not hold up the traffic.


Bushbasher

[H.G]

Originally Posted by Bushbasher

so by the time car 4,5 & 6 join the train, each driver is faced with passing an ever longer row of cars and each is even less willing to pull out and go past the further back in the train they are. Yet none of these people think to back off and leave space because they're all waiting for numpty #1 to pass and god forbid they aren't right on the spot to either be next in line to indeed follow numpty #1 round the mobile chicane.

Bushbasher

AMEN BROTHER.. thats exactly right.. its ok to leave a length of at least 1 and a half cars between you and the car in front.. and if someone wants to over take and push in front of you.. let them.. our hwys are not race tracks.. noone gets money for pole position.

[Hayden1]

Not being able to exceed speed limits while over taking has to be one of the most stupid road laws out there...

[Shonky.]

Originally Posted by flappist

400rwkw and brembos (and stripes and badges) are not a viable replacement for three dimensional spacial awareness and operational familiarity.

they make a nice compliment though

(sure doesn't hurt to have both)

[xtremerus]

Originally Posted by H.G

AMEN BROTHER.. thats exactly right.. its ok to leave a length of at least 1 and a half cars between you and the car in front.. and if someone wants to over take and push in front of you.. let them.. our hwys are not race tracks.. noone gets money for pole position.

Thats tailgating.
The 2-3 sec rule should be the minimum.

[Werd.]

Originally Posted by davway

I cant believe that people need to be "taught" how to overtake.
I really didnt think it was such a complex task.

hardest part is judging if it's safe or not really.. the act itself isn't anything difficult.

[H.G]

I did say at least... :S

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by xtremerus

Thats tailgating.
The 2-3 sec rule should be the minimum.

In that instance though I would call it being courteous

[4stanger]

Originally Posted by Bushbasher

I drive trucks and that isn't the case more times than not Prydey, usually it's numpty #1 going 80-90kph on the highway that is caught up to by numpty #2 who is too timid to pass but will sit in #1s' bumper, then Numpty #3 catches the pair and does the same thing but he or she now has 2 cars to pass and is too timid to do that .....and so it goes ............. so by the time car 4,5 & 6 join the train, each driver is faced with passing an ever longer row of cars and each is even less willing to pull out and go past the further back in the train they are. Yet none of these people think to back off and leave space because they're all waiting for numpty #1 to pass and god forbid they aren't right on the spot to either be next in line to indeed follow numpty #1 round the mobile chicane. When you're in a truck and on a time table this can be supremely frustrating. It's times like these, when I'm in my car, I'll sit off the train and wait for a nice straight stretch and just give it the welly and pass the lot of them given the opportunity. If I'm going 150-160 by the time I'm half way up the train, so be it, I'm carrying enough speed by that time to just button off and by the time I pull back in I'm already back down to 120 and ready to hit the CC and settle back in. And before you say to wait for a pass lane, most roads don't have pass lanes and I for one don't feel the need to sit behind a bunch of overly timid pussies for 30-40-50km at a time till the next town or junction where some of them might go away. If that makes me the devil incarnate in some people eyes then BOO HOO, get over it or learn to drive enough to not hold up the traffic.


Bushbasher

I feel the frustration when, I have a break from driving and let my wife drive!
Yes she is timid to overtake and when we get caught behind a "numpty", I ask her to back off to the 2 second gap and wait for an overtaking lane.
I admit, i have given it a boot full if stuck behind a train of cars, it is a rare occasion but as you describe getting up 160km/h half way past them, there must be some thought to the outcome if skippy decides to jump out in front of you or a tyre lets go, in that position and at that speed!

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by Werd.

hardest part is judging if it's safe or not really.. the act itself isn't anything difficult.

Agreed. Apart from judging the room to overtake, many two way roads have not so visible undulations (small hills) where an oncoming car may suddenly appear in front of you, even where there are broken lines which may indicate it is a safe overtaking area (I never trust broken lines). And then some roads have long stretches of shadows from windbreaker trees along the side of the road where even brightly coloured cars can become much less visible than in bright sunlight.

Lancefield Road north of Sunbury combines both of these hazards, many motorists have come to grief along that road. And there are no passing lane areas. If a relatively inexperienced licensed driver does not recognise the dangers along that road and decides to overtake....... Which I'm sure is a common reason for the toll along that road. But the "safety experts" decide to install the 'cheesecutter fences' along that road so there is nowhere to go now when suddenly confronted by an oncoming car that may be overtaking. Before these fences you had more room, also an option to head for the open paddock in the extreme case where there are no trees. But not now. Maybe the money could have been better spent on passing lane areas. Which is why I now have ADR approved DRL's on my car in place of the foglights as I often drive along that road, to help the less experienced or poor sighted overtakers.

[flappist]

It is not surprising that so many do not seem to understand why so many risks are taken overtaking and and have all sorts of simple solutions.

Our government is full of people who are in exactly the same situation which is why regardless of how many gazillion speed cameras and draconian laws are implemented the road toll does not change much.

Until the "experts" accept that people drive cars not robots and just because they think they are right does not automatically make it true there will be no improvement.

I have driven several million kilometres in Australia in every state and territory, in every capital city and almost every possible environment (I can't think on one I have not driven in but that does not make it automatically true ).

The ONLY time I have ever seen consistent safe following with no dangerous overtaking has been in NT before the (//) was removed.

It was amazing just how relaxed everyone was when stuck behind road trains or tourists in 4WDs with caravans. My theory is that if there is no limit to how fast you can go then there is no point in being in a hurry.

You go the speed you feel safe at all times and are never pressured to go slower or faster than you want to.

Of course this idea tends to be disliked and attacked, sometimes quite vehemently, by a minority who, I suspect, are afraid that others may be incapable of or just feel very uncomfortable judging what is a safe speed and need to be constantly instructed to guard against becoming a dangerous hazard to all users on the road, just like they do.....

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

Which is why I now have ADR approved DRL's on my car in place of the foglights as I often drive along that road, to help the less experienced or poor sighted overtakers.

You could have saved a bit of money by just turning on your low beam headlights as the low beams are brighter.

But then I suppose the money saved would be offset by the extra petrol need to run the aircon at a higher level to compensate for you not looking as cool.......

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by flappist

You could have saved a bit of money by just turning on your low beam headlights as the low beams are brighter.

But then I suppose the money saved would be offset by the extra petrol need to run the aircon at a higher level to compensate for you not looking as cool.......

My headlights would last much less than the 12 months or so they currently last at present, if I used low beams during the day. So there would be the extra expense in new Phillips bulbs at around $60 each time, plus driving more often on the one headlight when one has blown. And my DRL's only draw 6W for both.

But then this topic is on overtaking, so I wont go further here.

[JC]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

My headlights would last much less than the 12 months or so they currently last at present, if I used low beams during the day. So there would be the extra expense in new Phillips bulbs at around $60 each time, plus driving more often on the one headlight when one has blown. And my DRL's only draw 6W for both.

But then this topic is on overtaking, so I wont go further here.

I think you won that one!

Overtaking on single lane each way roads is becoming a lost art; mostly because there's not a lot of chance to practice these days with so many cars on the roads. I still practice it as often as I can though - the drivers that tend to speed up when coming upon an overtaking lane, tend to be the ones who are easily overtaken when no overtaking lane exists.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Bushbasher

I drive trucks and that isn't the case more times than not Prydey, usually it's numpty #1 going 80-90kph on the highway that is caught up to by numpty #2 who is too timid to pass but will sit in #1s' bumper, then Numpty #3 catches the pair and does the same thing but he or she now has 2 cars to pass and is too timid to do that .....and so it goes ............. so by the time car 4,5 & 6 join the train, each driver is faced with passing an ever longer row of cars and each is even less willing to pull out and go past the further back in the train they are. Yet none of these people think to back off and leave space because they're all waiting for numpty #1 to pass and god forbid they aren't right on the spot to either be next in line to indeed follow numpty #1 round the mobile chicane. When you're in a truck and on a time table this can be supremely frustrating. It's times like these, when I'm in my car, I'll sit off the train and wait for a nice straight stretch and just give it the welly and pass the lot of them given the opportunity. If I'm going 150-160 by the time I'm half way up the train, so be it, I'm carrying enough speed by that time to just button off and by the time I pull back in I'm already back down to 120 and ready to hit the CC and settle back in. And before you say to wait for a pass lane, most roads don't have pass lanes and I for one don't feel the need to sit behind a bunch of overly timid pussies for 30-40-50km at a time till the next town or junction where some of them might go away. If that makes me the devil incarnate in some people eyes then BOO HOO, get over it or learn to drive enough to not hold up the traffic.


Bushbasher

i agree that scenario is a bit annoying, esp for a truckie who is trying to earn a dollar.

i guess i was more thinking of times i've been stuck behind a slower moving vehicle, and some numpty can't work out that just because i'm not right up the clacker of the slower vehicle doesn't mean i don't want to pass. line of sight is much better when you sit back a reasonable distance so you don't have to keep weaving out. now because someone's journey is more important than mine, i now have to wait for him to decide when is safe before i can go. normally this sort of behaviour is after you cross the vic border.

i still think having a measure of patience is more critical to staying alive than the ability to overtake safely. getting stuck behind a slow vehicle will make very little difference to your life in the big scheme of things.

[Kevaclone]

Yeah well I can't speed when overtaking in the truck but I still manage to do it so the "need to speed" isn't needed at all. Of course it's mandatory to sit back and then get the run up, but you can see a lot further past the caravan, horse float, moving hire truck etc.

Then there are those that Need to get in front of the "L" plater as they do at our town turn off, it's a big drag race around the corner(two lanes) to get in front of my boy. Only to have by boy overtake them all 2klms further up the road where they are all doing 75 in the 100 zone

My Daughter's first overtaking move was in front of a Police car who promptly pulled us up as soon as we got into town for a licence check and RBT and praised her driving. Meanwhile old mate we passed back up the road goes past and we are stuck behind him again.... ar**holes :/

[Benjamin Smith]

I drive the road out to pittsworth everyday and every Arvo you come up on 5-7 cars line up behind a car doing 80k in the 100 zone( most of the time the same car). So glad I have my falcon ute can over take all those cars with ease

[Kevaclone]

still plenty of passing opportunities from Westbrook to Southbrook on that road, and once you get past Brookstead there are lots of looong straights for passing roadtrains in me B/Double

[SIMBAD]

Originally Posted by XARATE

Theres one problem with teaching L platers how to overtake- they are not allowed to go over 80kph. Where i live (country town) most of the roads are 100 zones, how can i teach a L plater doing 80 to overtake a car going 100? Its simply impossible.

On the flip side i ********** hate people that are impatient whith l platers and conduct the stupidest and highly dangerous overtaking manouvers just because they cant wait 5 minutes for a safe opportunity.
For example im currently teaching my partner to drive and we were recently traveling a 100km road that goes into town. We were 7km from the town boundry when a larger volvo softroader came up behind us. He waited not even 30 seconds and decided to over take on a long righthand bend that you couldnt see around due to trees, he got next to us and a car came around the corner. My partner did the roght thing and nailed the brakes to allow the volve drover to squeeze in in front of her. The volve driver lost his drivers side mirror as it smashed into the oncoming cars mirror. Needless to say i wasnt happy and wanted to kill him for doing such a stupid thing. I took down his rego as he didnt stop and 10 minutes later ran into him at the shopping center as he was getting his two kids out the car!!! I wont say what happened then

My point is he had less then 10km to get back into town where both cars would be doing the same speed yet he choseto risk peoples lives just because he could wait brhind a L plater. Some people meed to learn how to overtake safely and because of the enforced 80kph limit imposed on L platers its impossible.
Something needs to change!

There's a situation there that could be bad again, both drivers hitting the brakes like as if the other driver overtaking bails. Eitherway, poor form from that driver. ( I take it this was on the bend before the welcome to Tumut sign coming from belettes?)
Ps, when I'm driving my 2.4d 4runner I do see some people taking some very questionable gambles overtaking me too.

[H.G]

I was under the impression that under this circumstance the vehicle attempting the overtaking maneuver is the vehicle to slow down.. but I was not there so I have no ground to comment on your partners natural reaction to brake and avoid incident... much to the same extent of when people pull out in front of you at an intersection, see you , then stop.. you have to wonder why.. if your already halfway across the road it would make sense to me to keep going.. anyway.. what do I know. either way it all boils down to other drivers being far to impatient.. which is the main cause of road incidents.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by flappist

The ONLY time I have ever seen consistent safe following with no dangerous overtaking has been in NT before the (//) was removed.
It was amazing just how relaxed everyone was when stuck behind road trains or tourists in 4WDs with caravans. My theory is that if there is no limit to how fast you can go then there is no point in being in a hurry.

I have traveled around Australia.
Different road conditions up north compared to the southern half or eastern side of Australia...less traffic compared to the populated areas...
You have better roads & vision as far as you can see most times, if any it is no problem overtaking vehicles including road trains....speed limit or not.

I must admit at times there no need to hurry since you are touring, btw the locals go like hell up north at times due to vast distance... and that is fact.

[Cooper69S]

Originally Posted by Bushbasher

usually it's numpty #1 going 80-90kph on the highway that is caught up to by numpty #2 who is too timid to pass but will sit in #1s' bumper, then Numpty #3 catches the pair and does the same thing

I honestly don't understand it. Imagine the same situation on a walk path. You come up behind someone dawdling along at snails pace, you pass them and keep on your way without a second thought. Yet on the road, even when you're looking at a couple of km's of empty straight road in front of you, some people seem very reluctant to overtake, no matter how safe it is. I don't know if overtaking is something that should be taught (I wasn't taught it) but if people are able to confidently judge speed and distance then safe overtaking is a simple part of country driving that shouldn't be feared.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by trublu

I have traveled around Australia.
Different road conditions up north compared to the southern half or eastern side of Australia...less traffic compared to the populated areas...
You have better roads & vision as far as you can see most times, if any it is no problem overtaking vehicles including road trains....speed limit or not.

I must admit at times there no need to hurry since you are touring, btw the locals go like hell up north at times due to vast distance... and that is fact.

Yes that is exactly what I have seen. The whole of Australia in not the same as Melbourne and surrounding districts yet the "road experts" want to enforce policy that the have devised for there onto everywhere else regardless of how inappropriate it is.

The NT locals and for that manner many western Queenslanders go like cut cats when conditions allow yet understand that sometimes it is too dangerous and go slower. They can do this without speed cameras, a barrage or road signs or a multi million dollar "speed kills" propaganda campaign.

In the same way, getting back to the topic, so many feel that learner drivers should focus on reverse parking and "speed limit awareness" and traffic lights, all city based competencies and gloss over or even ignore country competencies such as overtaking, furry road hazards, loose surface, single lane sharing, heavy vehicle interaction, fuel range planning and even down to changing tyres and basic fault finding.

There have been a few comments on here that contain "I don't understand" from all positions.
Usually if I don't understand something I take a step back and look at it from other perspectives in that hope of seeing it from others' points of view as maybe I am missing something that applies to them rather than to what I am used to.

Australia is a very large and diverse place and people in Darwin or Cairns really do not have to know how to interact with snow or trams or toll roads or high density peak hour traffic in the same way that people in Melbourne do not need to know about road trains or cyclones or fuel availability.........unless of course you are travelling to a place where these things are found....

The most common fatal is the head on crash and the most common situation in which a head on crash occurs is overtaking.

Failure to train young drivers in overtaking skills is culpable.....

[TheSneakiness]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Try overtaking without exceeding the posted speed limit or if the wnkr you're overtaking decides to suddenly speed up,
Now you're struggling to pass some one, so you decide to chicken out because a truck is coming
the ****r you're overtaking then decides to jump on the brakes and trap you in the oncoming lane..

This

Or when you do finally come up beside an overtaking area and they do the same thing, speed up so you can't get past then slow down when the area has finished. Such a common occurance anywhere on the 450km between Brisbane and Coffs Harbour.

Some even have the gall to block anyone from using the overtaking lane by sitting in the middle of the road.

[crymoarpls]

Originally Posted by Kevaclone

talking about L platers
who here has taught their learner how to overtake on single lane two way roads
or was taught how while learning?

i was taught how and have taught the learner i supervised how to overtake properly.

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by pyr0boy

I'd love to know as well what current L/P platers are taught by instructors...

My son was taught that you ALWAYS drive through a roundabout in 2nd gear. If 2nd is too high, take your foot of the clutch, let it coast, and take your foot of the clutch when you leave the roundabout. If 2nd gear is too low, just drive slowly (and hold everyone else up).

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by trublu

I don't care if people overtake or not...as long as they leave sufficient space between cars for me to overtake safely then I'm happy.
I hate assholes who sit up each others asses making it difficult for others to overtake.

+1
Grew up on country roads on the East Coast, mostly gravel, many one lane. Dad was adamant that the 2nd car not overtaking the 1st is the dangerous one, because then others have to overtake 2 or more cars.