Electric cars on the back burner

[Carby]

Originally Posted by OzJavelin

Great .. would get me to work and about 6km short of home for the return trim. Makes the economy of my EGas ute seem great!

Well not really as the petrol motor on the Volt will kick in to get you home the last 6km's. However unlike the Prius the petrol motor is only used as a generator for the electric engine, the electric motor is the only drive unit in the car. All up the range is suppose to be over 450km for the Volt, more than handy!

[vztrt]

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-new...0615-yb01.html

‘Oldies’ embrace electric cars STEVE COLQUHOUN
June 15, 2010

Nissan says older buyers have shown strong interest in its breakthrough electric car, the Leaf.

Older buyers have embraced Nissan’s ground-breaking Leaf electric car, with one in three buyers over the age of 60.

The baby-boomer generation has responded strongly to the car in Nissan's home market, Japan, with 34 per cent of the Leaf's initial production run of 6000 cars pledged to the over-60 age group.

Buyers aged 50-plus and 40-plus comprise another 25 per cent each respectively, to give buyers over the age of 40 a total of 84 per cent of Leaf ownership in Japan.

Another 13,000 buyers have also placed deposits in the United States. Nissan will start production of the Leaf in September at its Oppama plant in Yokohama, Japan, and begin selling cars in both Japan and the US in December.

The car will come here in 2012, but Nissan Australia has not yet begun taking deposits. The Leaf is a five-door hatchback that runs entirely on electric power.

It has a range of about 160 kilometres and takes about eight hours to fully recharge via a household power point or 30 minutes to achieve 80 per cent power via a dedicated recharging station.

Nissan's global chief operating officer, Toshiyuki Shiga, says despite their advancing age, baby boomers were embracing the Leaf because they wanted to stay on the cutting edge of technology, and also because they were financially savvy.

"I think the younger generation in their 20s are very environment-conscious, and also the 50- and 60-year-olds. They embrace the new trends," he says.

Nissan Australia managing director Dan Thompson said he was "personally a bit surprised" by the demographic split.

"These are all new statistics so we've had no opportunity yet to extract and study them. We don't know yet whether we need to be placing much credence on it, or are these truly the early adopters?" he says.

"Here in Japan is a bit different to Australia. It's a hard one. I don't really know what we're going to see in Australia in the short-term as far as the customer profile. "The younger generation are so environmentally conscious and I think 20 years from now, it's going to be a completely different world. Saying that, EVs will still be a premium proposition in the short-term so I don't think you're going to see a lot sales under 30. I would guess after that there will be a pretty even split."

[vztrt]

http://www.caradvice.com.au/70669/el...hunter-region/

Electric vehicles trialed in Hunter region
By Brett Davis | June 17th, 2010

EnergyAustralia, the owner and operator of Australia’s largest electricity grid, is about to embark on a trial data collecting exercise which includes the use of up to 20 electric vehicles (EVs) throughout the Hunter region.

The exercise is aiming to retrieve data in terms of the demands such a car would place on the grid and if the current infrastructure could accommodate such technology.

As we know, progress in this technology has already been made in certain parts of Japan and most of California, USA, where their communities have supporting facilities for EVs as well as hydrogen-powered vehicles. Recharging stations and filling stations for each has allowed their driving public to run environmentally friendly technologies on a day-to-day basis. Now it seems Australia wants a slice of the technology cake to see just how up-to-scratch our infrastructure is.

It’s unknown who is going to ‘test’ these cars yet as EnergyAustralia hasn’t confirmed the finer details. The experiment is a government-funded initiative though so it would make sense to introduce the cars into their current company car lineup. The cars in question are likely to be a mixture of Mitsubishi i-MiEVs, Nissans and Renaults.

Look out for updates on the EV trial in the near future.

[vztrt]

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-new...0625-z4fr.html

Electric cars not the answer: Honda RICHARD BLACKBURN
June 28, 2010 - 12:42PM

One of the leaders in hybrid technology believes hydrogen-fuelled vehicles are the best solution to our energy needs.

Electric vehicles will only ever provide a partial solution to the problem of carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions from the car industry, a leading Honda engineer says.

Thomas Brachmann, a senior engineer in advanced technology research for Honda in Europe, says fuel cell vehicles, which generate their own electricity on-board from a chemical reaction with hydrogen, are superior to electric vehicles and will be the “ultimate solution” to the industry’s energy needs.

He says that plug-in electric vehicles, plug-in hybrids and range-extender hybrids - where a petrol engine kicks in to recharge an electric motor – are all stop-gap measures, while diesel and petrol vehicles will no longer be offered for sale by 2040.

Brachmann says electric vehicles haven’t progressed much in more than a century, despite repeated efforts by the car industry to popularise the technology.

“We have an EV that is 12 years old and it’s as good as the new electric vehicles out there,” he says.

He says the range, performance and recharging times for electric vehicles haven’t improved markedly and he doesn’t expect them to make huge strides in the future.

“So why the hell should we do this again just because of the hype around electric vehicles at the moment,” he says.

Fuel cell vehicles provided a more complete solution because they could achieve the range of a normal petrol vehicle and were true zero-emission vehicles, unlike plug-ins which often relied on a coal-fed electricity grid.

They could also be refuelled in two to three minutes compared with up to eight hours for an EV. Mr Brachmann also questions the wisdom of electric car battery swap stations.

He is sceptical that batteries can be swapped quickly, especially on hot days when the batteries will need time to cool before they are swapped.

He says electric vehicles are not well suited to Australian conditions, where travel distances are big and battery range can be significantly restricted by hot weather.

“If you want to cross Australia, you’ll need a different car,” he says.

He claims trials of electric vehicles have uncovered big differences in range depending on the driving habits of owners.

“On one specific electric vehicle, the range varied from 37km to 120km depending on the driver attitude and behaviour,” he says.

Electric vehicles would have a place as small commuter vehicles around cities, but bigger vehicles, including four-wheel-drives and sedans, would have to be fuel-cell driven.

He admits there are still big barriers to acceptance of fuel cell vehicles, including the exorbitant costs and lack of fuelling infrastructure.

But he says rapid progress is being made in both bringing down the cost of fuel cell vehicles and reducing the weight and size of storage tanks and fuel cells.

[Road_Warrior]

One of the things that irks me with the argument about the current crop of hybrids is the "innovation" word. Toyota has had mass-market hybrids out for over 10 years now and they are still the same basic configuration and still rely on the petrol engine for speeds greater than peak hour driving.

Now, Hyundai's hybrid Elantra with an LPG fuelled sustainer engine instead of petrol, that's much better. Less harmful emissions too.

[vztrt]

Well this is the second organisation to produce a fast charge to a battery (the other mob was a university which would fully charge a battery but required tremendous amounts of power).

http://www.caradvice.com.au/72980/jf...-fast-charger/

JFE Engineering in Japan develops 3-minute EV fast charger
By Brett Davis | July 6th, 2010

That’s the problem with electric vehicles, when the batteries go flat, they take too long to recharge. Not any more though. A Japanese company known as JFE Engineering have made strong development progress which could see battery charge times slashed from hours to just a few minutes.

Outlined in a recent JapanToday report, JFE Engineering claimed to have produced a quick charger which can replenish 50 percent of an EV’s battery level in just three minutes. The company also claims the system could recharge up to 70 percent in just five minutes.

JFE Engineering says it is pursuing EV charge times that would be on par with equivalent refueling times typically undertaken at the fuel station. “We have shortened the charging time to three minutes, the same amount of time for refueling petrol or making a simple purchase,’’ an official of the company said in the report.

This could be a huge step forward towards smooth integration of the EV into our current infrastructure and way of living. Compared to the latest EV recharge offerings, some of which require an over-night charge, this new quick charge system would allow us to ‘refuel’ at the station on the go.

The company hopes their new product will be available to the public at petrol stations and other roadside vendors by the end of March, 2011.

[vztrt]

http://www.caradvice.com.au/79427/ch...race-dongfeng/

Chinese invest in Electric Vehicles
By Alborz Fallah | August 18th, 2010



The race to create practical and affordable electric cars has heated up with news that Dongfeng Motor Corp (China’s third-biggest automotive manufacturer) is set to invest 3 billion yuan ($487 million) in the next five years to create hybrid and electric vehicles.

Initially the company will make hybrid cars before it moves into full electric passenger cars. According to the Shanghai Daily, Dongfeng will even go as far as creating its own batteries. There is no details as to exact specifications of its electric or hybrid vehicles.

It’s more than likely that the technology will be borrowed from joint-venture partners Honda and PSA/Peugeot-Citroen SA.

The aim is to sell around 150,000 hybrid and electric vehicles by 2015 (split 2/3 towards hybrid) with sales expected to eventually make up at least 20 percent of Dongfeng overall sales.

The Chinese government recently announced that it will subsidize the cost price of alternative fuel cars in five cities.

[vztrt]

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/11/01/j...-be-overhyped/

J.D. Power says global battery demand may be overhyped

by Jonathon Ramsey (RSS feed) on Nov 1st 2010 at 8:29AM



As per usual whenever there's great change afoot, finding the shelter of reality among competing storms of He Said/She Said isn't easy – it will probably take us another ten years to find out what's really true right now. J.D. Power and Associates has added more data to the mix with its report, "Drive Green 2020: More Hope than Reality." The one-sentence summary is that, according to J.D. Power's research, there might be more hype than substance to hybrid and battery demand, but that China could change everything.

J.D. Power is basing this on its assumption that hybrids and electric vehicles will only go from 2.2 percent of worldwide vehicle sales to 5.2 percent of worldwide sales in 2020. The cautious note on sales the firm puts down to regulatory inconsistencies across the globe, stable oil prices, and buyers' concerns about buying and maintaining such vehicles.

To make battery demand a serious, valid concern, Powers believes that there will need to be a "significant increase" in the price of oil, a significant decrease in the costs of green technologies and a "coordinated government policy." The report holds that customers simply don't want to spend the up-front money required to go green, and worry about how much more money it might take to stay green. Follow the jump for the complete press release.

[Source: J.D. Power]

[wrongwaynorris]

Anyone interested , there was a brilliant documentary made a few years back called " Who Killed The Electric Car " exposing the cynical way G.M. got round selling cars in California by offering the EV1 in its range to dodge paying massive environmental fees . Then at the end of their leases crushed every one .

[burnz]

Originally Posted by wrongwaynorris

Anyone interested , there was a brilliant documentary made a few years back called " Who Killed The Electric Car " exposing the cynical way G.M. got round selling cars in California by offering the EV1 in its range to dodge paying massive environmental fees . Then at the end of their leases crushed every one .

the only batterys that could do the job nimh for EV's patent is own'd by chevron..
EV1 and rav4/EV and honda all had to drop development..

so any EV/hybred must run on substandard, lead acid/li'on batterys..

[deesun]

There will be no use importing all those EV cars from China if there are no charging stations. 50,000 EV's sitting on the docks going NOWHERE. Flat batteries. And thats how we can protect our industry.

[vztrt]

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-new...105-17gvh.html

Industry divided on electric car future
Jez Spinks With Richard Blackburn
November 6, 2010

With the world's oil stocks draining, car makers are hedging their bets between fuel-cell and plug-in vehicles, writes Jez Spinks.

The world's car makers are becoming increasingly divided on the merits of plug-in electric vehicles, with Hyundai this week joining Honda and Toyota in backing hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles as the ultimate solution to the world's dwindling oil resources.

And leading industry researcher JD Power has poured cold water on electric cars, claiming in a recent report that buyers are unlikely to warm to the technology in the next decade due to concerns about cost, recharging times and driving range.

Hyundai's president and chief executive, Steve S. Yang, says electric vehicles have too many disadvantages to be a viable form of future transport for the masses.
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"Our ultimate goal is to build fuel-cell vehicles - and make them available from 2015," Yang says. "Of course, we need EVs and we need hybrids but these are an intermediate step for FC vehicles. The point of [Hyundai] building the EVs is to get proven technology for fuel cell [vehicles].

"Sales of EVs is totally dependent on government policies and subsidies. The GM Volt, for example, costs $41,000 [in the US]. Even including the government subsidy of $7000, it costs $34,000, which is a price that's similar to the luxury cars.

"The other problem with the EVs is the short distance of travel and you need about seven hours for recharge."

Yang's sentiments are backed by Toyota and Honda, which both see electric cars as a stop-gap measure.

Honda says fuel-cell vehicles are superior to EVs because they can achieve the range of a normal petrol vehicle and can refuel in two to three minutes, compared with up to eight hours for an EV.

Toyota is equally bullish about fuel-cells, claiming it can have an affordable fuel-cell vehicle on US roads by 2015.

The trio is at odds with rivals such as Nissan, Renault and Mitsubishi, which have invested heavily in EVs. Various Chinese brands are also focusing on EVs.

The Mitsubishi i-MiEV electric car is already on the road globally, including Australia, as part of a trial, while Nissan's Leaf is due to start reaching showrooms around the world before the end of the year.

EV supporters claim plug-in technology is superior to the fuel-cell because the infrastructure - in the form of normal domestic power points - already exists. They also say advancements in battery and charging technology will address current concerns, while arguing that fuel-cell vehicles require a huge investment in hydrogen refuelling stations.

Hyundai, the world's fifth-largest car brand, admits there are many challenges with fuel-cell vehicles, including a lack of infrastructure and the high cost of batteries. However, it claims it is "a little bit more forward than the other manufacturers" and says the price of hydrogen vehicles will be less of an issue by the end of the decade.

"By 2020, we think we can reduce the price gap between fuel-cell cars and gasoline [petrol] cars," Yang says.

Hyundai has built fuel-cell vehicles for several years, based on its Tucson compact soft-roader. The company says it will build another 100 fuel-cell hydrogen vehicles next year based on the latest-generation model, known as ix35 in Australia.

Yang says people would have to change the way they use cars for electric vehicles to become more popular, whereas hydrogen cars retain the functionality of current petrol/diesel vehicles.

JD Power predicts the vast majority of cars in showrooms will still be conventionally powered by 2020. It says only 7 per cent of vehicles will be hybrids or EVs.

It says a consumer migration to EVs will only happen if there is a significant increase in the price of petroleum-based fuels, a major breakthrough in technology that would lower costs and increase range, or a co-ordinated government effort to encourage use.

It says none of those scenarios is likely in the next decade.

"While many consumers around the world say they are interested in HEVs [hybrid EVs] and BEVs [battery EVs] for the expected fuel savings and positive environmental impact they provide, their interest declines significantly when they learn of the price premium that comes with purchasing these vehicles," the head of automotive research at JD Power, John Humphrey, says.

[vztrt]

http://www.caradvice.com.au/91499/in...ge-from-china/

Industry experts warn of rare earth mineral shortage from China
By Tim Beissmann | November 17th, 2010

Automotive industry experts have warned that China’s near monopoly of today’s rare earth metals industry could threaten global electric vehicle production if exports out of China slow.

Data released by China’s Ministry of Commerce yesterday suggested exports of rare earth minerals could cease for the rest of the year.

Currently 97 percent of the world’s rare earth metals are produced in China, including substances like neodymium, which is used in electric motor magnets, as well as other materials used in the development of rechargeable batteries.

Senior consultant for Frost & Sullivan, Nicholas Meilhan, recently told the Reuters Global Autos Summit that he believed the strain of rare earth metal shortage would increase with time as EVs grow in popularity.

“I think it’s a huge problem because those metals are used for electric motors. Any car with an electric motor will use these rare earth metals,” Mr Meilhan said.

He agreed with experts at the summit that mines in other countries would be encouraged to reopen if the materials could no longer be sourced from China at a feasible price.

Valeo CEO Jacques Aschenbroich said he did not believe a rare earth minerals shortage would be a long-term problem however, and suggested a lack of certain electronic components could create “much more of a headache” in the short-term.

Mr Aschenbroich was confident China’s supply of rare earth minerals would not completely dry up.

“I don’t expect China will cut off the supply and make the products absolutely unavailable in the market. It might happen but I don’t think it is the most credible scenario,” he said.

[vztrt]

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-new...225-1b8sa.html

Soon it will be plug it in, not fill it up
Stephen Ottley
February 26, 2011

ELECTRIC cars are predicted to begin flooding Sydney roads by the end of the decade. Despite only 112 fully electric vehicles being sold in Australia last year, a new report forecasts there will be more than 100,000 by the end of the decade.

The report was produced by a consulting firm, Energeia, and claimed there will be 109,491 electric vehicles on Australian roads by 2020. By 2030 it predicted there will be 3.4 million on the road.

"Australians will have to wait a while before electric cars present a cost-effective alternative to the petrol engine," said Ezra Beeman, the author of the report. "Nevertheless, the electric car revolution is coming to Australia and the new world order that we eventually expect to emerge will include zero-carbon transport.''
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Mr Beeman said there would also be ''a decentralised, renewable energy based electricity system, and abundant storage that will bring an end to wholesale electricity market price spikes and the peak electricity problem for distribution networks."

Not surprisingly the report suggested the early adopters of electric vehicles would be professionals who earned more than $100,000 and already owned a car.

The report also highlighted the problems facing mainstream adoption of electric cars, most significant of which is public recharging. Most recharging is expected to occur at homes and workplaces.

Local operators have only just begun working out the best method for installing public charging outlets. The industry is divided on the best option. Both mobile phone-style accounts and pay-by-use models are under consideration.

Last year ChargePoint Australia unveiled Australia's first public outlet but it was restricted to members of the GoGet car sharing scheme.

However, the company said it was considering installing outlets at shopping centres and other public sites as demand for its services increase. Customers would simply pay for the amount of electricity used.

The Energeia report comes as electric cars are poised to have a greater presence in showrooms. Five car makers have already confirmed plans to launch electric vehicles in Australia and more are expected.

Mitsubishi, Nissan, Holden, Toyota and the American electric-only brand Tesla will all offer vehicles by the end of next year.

Mr Beeman's report said government support will be crucial to how quickly electric cars are adopted. Overseas governments offer a variety of incentives for customers, including tax breaks, dedicated traffic lanes and special parking.

In a positive sign for the industry the federal government allocated $3.5 million from the Green Car Innovation Fund for the development of an electric Holden Commodore by an independent consortium.

[TheInterceptor]

So if i buy an electric car, can it take me at least 600kms to the next town before needing a recharge? Available in practical size and weight? Decent performance? Available in 4wd?

No?

No thanks....if the above is met then maybe....just maybe.

Edit: Also affordable. By the way electricity is costing us now...

[In Focus]

January 1, 2015

CHINESE CARS NOW ALL THE BUZZ

Chinese car-makers Chery and Geely have joined forces to buy out the mining companies responsible for 97% of the world's neodymium supply - now, they are the only manufacturers with affordable electric cars. Up to 100,000 are expected to flood the Australian market over the next five years...

[vztrt]

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...2578500022D780

Buyers shun green cars

Consumers choose petrol and diesel over hybrid or battery electric vehicle tech

14 March 2011

By MARTON PETTENDY

A STUDY has found the number of new-vehicle buyers who intend to purchase hybrid or all-electric vehicles in Australia has dropped in the past three years, while their intention to purchase conventional petrol and diesel vehicles increased.

Fresh research by Synovate, the market research arm of the Aegis Group, indicates that the race by car-makers to offer more economical – and usually more expensive – hi-tech alternatives to traditional petrol and diesel engines has so far not been matched by public demand in Australia.

According to the ‘Alternative Fuels’ study conducted in November, most respondents (62 per cent) named petrol engines as the technology they were most likely to choose for their next new vehicle – up five percentage points from 57 per cent in 2007.

Similarly, although indicative demand for turbo-petrol technology remained static at 41 per cent, purchase consideration for turbo-diesel technology increased from 39 to 40 per cent.

During the same period, however, the number of people who intended to buy hybrid vehicles fell by seven points, from 50 to 43 per cent.

Although LPG was not specifically surveyed, consideration of flex-fuel (ethanol) technology fell by four points to 32 per cent, fuel cell power was six points less popular at 26 per cent and battery-electric vehicles were considered by just 22 per cent – down nine points from 31 per cent in 2007.

The findings were taken from an online research study conducted in November 2010 with 725 Australians who recently purchased a new car or intended to do so.

Synovate, which employs more than 6700 staff in 62 countries, said it focused on understanding the types of alternative fuels that customers are interested in, what the perceived barriers are and how likely they are to switch to these alternative energy sources in each vehicle segment.

“The findings are that whilst car manufacturers are developing alternative engine technologies to the traditional petrol engine, consumers are not following suit,” Synovate research analyst Marie-Claire Buaud told GoAuto.

The first wave of the study in 2007 – before the GFC but during a significant rise in petrol prices – revealed that two-thirds of consumers would take into account both vehicle emissions and fuel economy when purchasing their next vehicle.

According to the 2010 survey, fuel economy is more important to consumers than vehicle emissions, with only 50 per cent of consumers likely to consider both.

Of course, the second wave of research late last year took place during a relatively low fuel price environment, before the cost of petrol increased to current highs of around $1.50/litre in many capitals.

Petrol prices reached £6/gallon ($2.10/litre) in the UK for the first time last week and some industry analysts have forecast petrol prices of $2.00/litre by the end of 2011 in Australia.



Meantime, the federal government will impose a 2.5-cent/litre excise on LPG from July this year, just months before Ford and Holden release new LPG systems for the Falcon and Commodore respectively. This will grow to 12.5 cents over the following five years, representing a $540 million windfall for the commonwealth.

LPG Australia says that a car powered by LPG, which is about half the price of petrol at the bowser, emits up to 13 per cent less carbon emissions than an equivalent petrol vehicle.

Yet according to VFACTS, sales of LPG passenger vehicles to private buyers shrank by one per cent last year, while sales of LPG passenger cars to non-private customers reduced by 21.2 per cent.

In comparison, private sales of petrol passenger vehicles increased by 9.2 per cent (non-private: six per cent), and private sales of diesel vehicles increased by 33 per cent (non-private: 17.4 per cent).

Naturally, diesel power continues to dominate the SUV sector and, as GoAuto has reported, Ford expects that, with the help of its new Territory TDCi, diesel engines will comprise half of all medium SUV sales in Australia by year’s end.

However, oil-burners have infiltrated Australia’s luxury car market, too, with one-third of all premium models from the big three German brands being diesel-powered here last year – more than three times the overall market average of 12 per cent.

Last year 52 per cent of all BMWs sold in Australia were diesel (up from 38 per cent in 2009), while a record 35 per cent of all Audis bought were diesel.

The Synovate study also reflects local sales of hybrid vehicles, which offer reduced fuel economy and, especially, CO2 emissions compared to petrol and diesel engines.

Toyota’s dedicated-hybrid Prius suffered a 47 per cent sales slump in 2010 – the same year Toyota released its cheaper Australian-made Camry Hybrid, which has attracted lower than expected numbers of private customers.

Thanks largely to the petrol-electric Camry, private sales of hybrid passenger vehicles increased by 144 per cent from a low base in 2009 to 1769 units last year, while non-private hybrid sales lifted by 154 per cent to 7058 units.

Total Camry sales increased 20 per cent last year, but are down almost 22 per cent so far in 2011. Prius sales have also continued to slide, down almost 63 per cent year to date.

In January, Honda sold just 31 examples of its new Insight, Australia’s most affordable hybrid at $29,990, plus 113 in 2010 (following its launch in late November) and a further 90 in February – well down on Honda’s 200/month forecast.

Presently, the only factory-made pure-EVs available here are Mitsubishi’s lease-only i-MiEV city car and the new Tesla Roadster sportscar.

Australia’s first mainstream electric vehicles will go on sale next year, when both GM Holden’s plug-in hybrid Volt and Nissan’s battery-electric Leaf will be released. Without government subsidies, however, both models will be significantly more expensive than equivalent small cars.

The Synovate study also found that 36 per cent of respondents viewed fuel consumption as a key way to reducing their monthly expenditure – up from 20 per cent in 2007.

However, while 42 per cent said they consciously tried to drive more efficiently in the past year, a similar proportion (39 per cent) said they made no significant change to their driving behaviour.

“Whilst the automobile industry is leaping ahead with the development of alternative engine technologies, consumers are not ready to make the shift from the traditional combustion engines,” said Synovate of its survey results.

“The first wave of the study back in 2007 revealed two-thirds of consumers would take into account both vehicle emissions and fuel economy when purchasing their next vehicle.

“This initial research came amidst a significant rise in petrol prices (and occurred pre-GFC), which at that point in time triggered a sudden growth in the attractiveness of alternative propulsion systems such as electric hybrid vehicles.

“A repeat of the study in late 2010 revealed that consumers are now more likely to consider traditional combustion engines, whilst consideration of clean alternatives like hybrids and electric cars, has dropped.

“Although petrol prices have risen since late 2010, carbon emissions are less of a concern these days than they were in 2007.”

[2011G6E]

I still like the Fiesta Eco advert with a guy pasting up a big poster for the Prius with "Australias most fuel efficient car", and a woman parks a Fiesta directly in front of the picture of the Prius...then the guy looks down as if to say "D'oh!", and starts tearing off the picture of the Prius...

the biggest "fear" with hybrid cars is the batteries...no one seems to want to talk about the elephant in the room: namely how long do the battery packs last and what do they cost to replace? How will it affect second (and third and fourth) hand sales in years to come and will they be worth anything? Can they justify the simply vast cost of a hybrid...that tiny little Miev thing is going to cost over $70,000!!! Hell, I've got a G6E worth a bit over $54,000 (when you tot up the options and all) in the driveway...I think I'll take that and just wear the extra fuel costs, thank you...

Perhaps...just perhaps, if they made them look like normal cars, the "ordinary" as opposed to "dedicated green" people would buy them. Look at the hybrid Camry and hybrid Honda Civic...they look like perfectly normal cars except for the little "hybrid" badge on the back. The Prius sells in bigger numbers though than these two. This was explained by motoring journalists on a show I saw on TV a while back, who said that, generally, people who bought a hybrid not only wanted to own a hybrid, they more importantly wanted to be seen to be driving a hybrid...if your hybrid looks like any other car, how the hell can you feel smug about it and show off!!???

Hybrids are an interesting idea, but ultimately flawed. Too costly, not as fuel efficient as, say, a VW Golf Diesel or many other not-so-small cars available now, and they still have a stigma of future value and return on your not-inconsiderable investment in the thing.

[Ben73]

Hydrogen sounds good to me.
The hydrogen runs an electric motor. But hydrogen can be put into your car just as quick as petrol at a service station and you get as much range as a petrol car.
No stupid 10 hours charge for 50kms range.

They need to figure out how to make hydrogen cheap and easily available to everyone.

I wish scientist could make a direct replacement for petrol. So we can still have ICE V8's
Who can get excited over a car that sounds like a TV that makes that high pitch sound when it has just been turned on.

[Mechan1k]

Originally Posted by wrongwaynorris

Anyone interested , there was a brilliant documentary made a few years back called " Who Killed The Electric Car " exposing the cynical way G.M. got round selling cars in California by offering the EV1 in its range to dodge paying massive environmental fees . Then at the end of their leases crushed every one .

I was about to post this ... or quote it to a previous post in here where someone mentioned it's a conflict of interest.

That doco was excellent in showing who was actually in collusion with who.
I think the EV1 worked too well ... and in the end the oil companies didn't like it ... and the government was brought in and the whole thing was quashed.

Such a shame ... the vehicle at the time was actually well a head of its time .. and looked to be doing well in California.

Government and greedy money hungry oil conglomerates came in and spoiled the party.

[Jim Goose]

Government and greedy money hungry oil conglomerates came in and spoiled the party.

NO way..... oil companies in bed with governements!!?!?!? unheard of... lol

Last week in Townsville (or was it Cairns???) anyhoo the local news here reported that ERGON energy had leased/ bought 8 fully electric cars for a trial.

The ERGON carpark has an electrical outlet for charging them, cars have a range of 60 to 70km.

The idea of the trial was to see how much infrastructure is needed, how its affected or gets affected by peak hour demand on the grid etc..

I honestly cant see electric cars being useful over long distances, but clearly in large cities where parking is a premium and high speed isnt needed, there is a niche market for them.

In large capitol cities a lot of people commute to work now using electric trains and then bus the rest of the way to work.

Maybe a trial where train commuters when they get to their destination can hire a car at the railway station to get into town, use the car for the day, then return it to the railway station at the end of the day?

[EFFalcon]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

Maybe a trial where train commuters when they get to their destination can hire a car at the railway station to get into town, use the car for the day, then return it to the railway station at the end of the day?

and pay stupid parking prices... yeah, great benefit.

[Jim Goose]

Er.. people already pay stupid prices to park.

The idea is to remove/ keep peoples own car at home and use the electric one while at work because of the cars limited range.

Im not saying its a solution, its an IDEA.
This would get a few more people onto public transport and less cars on the freeway (giving people a nice fuzzy feeling)

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by Carby

Well not really as the petrol motor on the Volt will kick in to get you home the last 6km's. However unlike the Prius the petrol motor is only used as a generator for the electric engine, the electric motor is the only drive unit in the car. All up the range is suppose to be over 450km for the Volt, more than handy!

well that's how some freight trains work, they have a diesel motor that runs a big *** generator and uses electric motors to provide the motivation.

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by aussie muscle

well that's how some freight trains work, they have a diesel motor that runs a big *** generator and uses electric motors to provide the motivation.

This is true.
Our trains at work have a 16cylinder turbo diesel engine that runs 6 electric motors powering the wheels.
I never really asked about it, is it supposed to be more fuel efficient or something?
I know on a loaded coal train the 2 locomotives combined have a fuel consumption of more then 1500L/100kms. Yes that's correct they use one thousand five hundred litres of diesel for every 100kms they travel when loaded.

I'd love to see how they can make it more fuel efficient.

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by Ben73

This is true.
Our trains at work have a 16cylinder turbo diesel engine that runs 6 electric motors powering the wheels.
I never really asked about it, is it supposed to be more fuel efficient or something?
I know on a loaded coal train the 2 locomotives combined have a fuel consumption of more then 1500L/100kms. Yes that's correct they use one thousand five hundred litres of diesel for every 100kms they travel when loaded.

I'd love to see how they can make it more fuel efficient.

They use the generator in place of a traditional gearbox and diff's. Most of the efficiency is gained in regenerative braking and holding the engine rev's in the sweet spot.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Ben73

This is true.
Our trains at work have a 16cylinder turbo diesel engine that runs 6 electric motors powering the wheels.
I never really asked about it, is it supposed to be more fuel efficient or something?
I know on a loaded coal train the 2 locomotives combined have a fuel consumption of more then 1500L/100kms. Yes that's correct they use one thousand five hundred litres of diesel for every 100kms they travel when loaded.

I'd love to see how they can make it more fuel efficient.

This Hybrid style used on heavy earthmoving machinery has found to be more fuel efficient. The only time mechanical brive is better is up hills. But CAT's new hybrid bulldozer is meant to have a fuel saving of 25% which would be very applealing.

[vztrt]

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...2578840025854B

US study sees low hybrid and EV demand as Australian petrol-electric apathy rolls on

2 May 2011

By TERRY MARTIN

THE market share of hybrid and electric vehicles in the United States is expected to remain below 10 per cent through to at least 2016, according to new research from global marketing information company JD Power and Associates.

The 2011 ‘Green Automotive Study’ released last week reaffirms conclusions made from earlier research, including a JD Power report released late last year that predicted hybrids and EVs would account for just 7.3 per cent – or 5.2 million units – of the 70.9 million passenger vehicles forecast to be sold worldwide in 2020.

This latest research includes a survey in February of more than 4000 US consumers who indicated they will be in the market for a new vehicle over the next five years. JD Power says its study is also based on “information and insight” from primary consumer research, social media intelligence, forecasting and transaction sales data.

And for car companies pushing ahead with hybrid and electric vehicles in the US, Australia and elsewhere across the globe, the findings again indicate that there will be plenty of fighting, in JD Power’s words, “over the relatively few consumers who are willing to drive green”.

The study, which tracks consumer attitudes toward conventional hybrids, plug-in hybrids, full EVs and ‘clean diesel’ models, found a high level of interest in alternative powertrains among a majority of Americans. General perceptions of green vehicles were also largely positive.

However, JD Power concludes that “converting this interest into actual sales will require concerted efforts to improve the technology and infrastructure and reduce the cost to consumers” – most notably for the 159 hybrid and EV models the firm believes will be available for purchase in the US by the end of 2016 (up from 31 hybrids and EVs in 2009).

Last year, the US recorded more than 274,000 hybrid car sales, selling almost three times the number in a single month – 28,600 in December, for example – than Australia can muster in an entire year.

With 11.59 million overall sales last year in the US, GoAuto’s calculations put hybrid’s share at 2.4 per cent. Japan, on the other hand, has already passed the 10 per cent mark for hybrids.

While Australia is still a minnow in EV terms and in any comparison with the vast US market, the hybrid landscape nonetheless changed dramatically here last year with the launch of the locally built Camry Hybrid in February and, late in the year, Honda’s $29,990 Insight.

Total hybrid vehicle registrations more than doubled in 2010 compared to the previous year – up from 4197 to 9784 units – but, pointedly, this still represents less than one per cent of the total new-vehicle market.

It is also less than the annual figure (10,000) Toyota had targeted for its Camry Hybrid alone.

Of last year’s total hybrid sales, just 2292 went to private consumers, accounting for less than one in four (23.4 per cent) of the total and apparently reflecting the same sort of attitude among average Australian buyers that JD Power has found in American consumers.

While people are likely to recognise the fuel-cost savings hybrids and other alternative-powertrain vehicles can offer, study participants cited significant impediments (whether actual or perceived) to ownership, including the purchase price – the number-one barrier – as well as driving range, increased maintenance costs and compromised vehicle performance.

After the first quarter of 2011 in Australia – which reflects the Insight up and running and the first registrations for the new $39,990 Lexus CT200h, but not the subsequent $5000-plus price cut of the slow-selling Toyota Prius (now starting at $34,990) – hybrid sales have still fallen compared to the same period last year (1835 versus 2038) and account for only 0.7 per cent of the total market.

Over these three months, Honda found only 177 Insight buyers – it forecast 200 sales a month at launch last October – and Toyota found just 167 for the Prius (down 64 per cent YTD).

VFACTS figures no longer specify Camry Hybrid figures, but with just 1639 hybrid passenger vehicles sold to March 31 – and 223 of those representing the CT200h – that leaves around 1000 sales shared between several cars including the Camry, Honda’s Civic hybrid and the Lexus GS and LS hybrids.

There are many new hybrid models on their way – more from established players like Toyota, Lexus and Honda, and from other mainstream and luxury marques – but, as we have documented before, the figures make it impossible not to see a striking lack of consumer commitment for petrol-electric powertrains.

This is a clear warning for car-makers with grand plans for plug-in hybrids and electric vehicles in Australia – let alone more new conventional hybrid models – and, as JD Power points out in the American context, there is considerable work for manufacturers, government entities and others to do in educating consumers on the true costs and benefits of electrified vehicle technologies.

Even though fuel prices are continuing to rise, JD Power argues that only through promotion and education will significant numbers of consumers become “sufficiently comfortable with both the financial investment and, in some cases, lifestyle changes required to make the leap from traditional vehicles to alternative powertrain vehicles”.

“Alternative powertrains face an array of challenges as they attempt to gain widespread acceptance in the market,” said JD Power and Associates executive director of global vehicle research Mike VanNieuwkuyk last week.

“It is the financial issues that most often resonate with consumers, whether it is the higher price of the vehicle itself, the cost to fuel or charge the vehicle, or the fear of higher maintenance costs.

“The bottom line is that most consumers want to be green, but not if there is a significant personal cost to them.”

Government incentives are considered important in the short term, but JD Power believes that ultimately the vehicle manufacturers and their suppliers will have to wear the higher costs involved in order to drive the change.

“As concerns about the functionality and performance of hybrid vehicles have abated, vehicle price has become more prevalent as the primary purchase impediment,” Mr VanNieuwkuyk said.

“Without a tax credit to offset the price premium, consumers must absorb all of this additional cost. Furthermore, aggressive government subsidies are unlikely to be sustainable over the long term.

“Ultimately, the true cost of the technology needs to come down substantially.”

[57customline]

alot of prius taxi's goin round in qld, spoke to a few taxi operators and they love em

[2011G6E]

Dream on everyone.

Unless Australia goes nuclear, electric cars are a total dream in this country. They will have to be heavily subsidised to be competitive with petrol and diesel cars, and billions...maybe hundreds of billions...would have to be spent on "filling stations" every fifty kilometers or so acround the entire country. Y
If people expect them to be in "widespread use", then you have to cater not only for the crap "fuel range", but for varying ranges of cars...some will go for a couple of hundred k's...maybe...but most will go a lot less, and given varying temperatures, hilly conditions compared to flat roads, winding compared to straight, hot weather for extended periods where people use the air con and stuff more, fifty kilometers would be about right for each station. Won't a typical long drive in Queensland be fun when you have to stop for a few hours every hundred kilometers or so at most with the family on board to "fill up".

As for hybrids, why bother? Buy a damn Volkwagen Golf diesel and get better fuel economy and be done with it.

"Driver apathy" is perfectly natural. Why pay a massive premium for a Prius or other hybrid...or $70,000 fricking dollars for that MIEV thing!...when you can get perfectly serviceable economy from a wide range of far cheaper cars which also get amazing economy. Hell, I still marvel at cruising along at 100 to 110 in our G6E and seeing the fuel economy sitting around 7.5 to 8.5 ltr/100km! I can't get that out of my 1982 Toyota Celica with a 2 ltr four cylinder and five speed manual!

Hydrogen is a dream as well...and expensive and problematic dream. It, along with ethanol, is an energy negative fuel...it takes more energy to process, store, transport, and deliver, than is contained in the fuel product you are making. Unless some amazing new catalyst or process is invented to make it without relying on vast amounts of energy, it'll remain a difficuly fuel to make. It remains an even more difficult one to store. Not sure I want to drive around with a massive insulated tank storing liquid hydrogen at a couple of hundred degrees below zero right behind me.

What is wrong with concentrating on proven technology...direct injection, LP gas, super-efficient turbo diesels, and other new tech which is easy to fit to existing vehicles on existing production lines using existing networks of fuel stations?

To digress: people wonder why good money is being spent on making human-shaped robots, when a box on wheels with a couple of arms is a better and easier to build proposition. The reason is simple: to fit in with the world as it is now without major changes to things like staircases, doorways, and peoples houses.
This then links to cars. We already have a wide network of stations that are designed to fill a car with a combustable liquid. We already have tens of thousands of tanker vehicles of all sorts to transport that liquid. Peopleare used to going where they want when they want, and simply pulling in and filling up and going on thier way again in minutes.
Why not take the advantage and spend the investment dollars to concentrate on modifying and improving the systems we have in place now instead of expecting the whole country to change radically (and expensively) the way we do an everyday task, deliberately making it more complicated for very little, if any, benefit?