The feud, an exercise in marketing and mechanical engineering

[04redxr8]

Originally Posted by flappist

The majority of new FPV and HSV buyers never modify their car in any way.

Purchasing a GT, F6 or Clubsport is an almost purely emotional not logical decision.

How many GT owners bought their vehicle for any reason other than they had a V8 and a GT badge?

The V8s outsell the T6s by a large number yet the F6 is both quicker from the factory as well as lends itself far more readily to performance modification.

As far as the marketing not being based on acceleration....

Can you find even one FPV or HSV brochure or advert that shows lap times or braking distances or maximum turning G?

As opposed to 0-100km/h or 0-400m......

I can understand that. But do you think that the decision to buy is based on a run completed by a journo, or is it more a case of I have $70k to spend, what Ford or Holden can I choose.

Remember that the typical buyer of these cars will 1. be an enthusiast, and 2. will no doubt already have a preference as to which brand they want. The rest will come down to bugdet and choice.

I still think any buyer who weighs the purchase decision on 400m times will mod their car. After all, if you didn't care which was quicker, why would you even look at the times?

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by flappist

Yes exactly that. The journos use a bog standard car on a normal road surface with a full tank, all the bits still in the boot and a "normal" sized driver with the time measured on an accelerometer so you can't "creep back" on the start.

Until the torque curve of the coyote is revealed and the test is done it is all hypothetical but I suspect, like with the Typhoon, FPV are keeping their powder dry and will "walk the walk" rather than just "talk the talk".

Cool, that makes perfect logical sense..

[glavas]

w427 is king. who cares about 400m times. a 7 liter 640nm 375kw from na is just unreal. i just want one.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by glavas

w427 is king. who cares about 400m times. a 7 liter 640nm 375kw from na is just unreal. i just want one.

Pretty sure if you read the first post you'll see its already common knowledge and widely accepted that the W427 is the "pinnacle"...

If you take the time to read it whats been proposed is if the new Coyote powered GT will knock it of...

[glavas]

there both in there own leagues one is na the other is fi.

[GS608]

Originally Posted by glavas

there both in there own leagues one is na the other is fi.

No they are both in the same league..both are Australian performance cars.

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

widely accepted that the W427 is the "pinnacle"...

Pinnacle of what the $150,000 price tag? ....
I would take a GT and a F6 for the same price and have 2 very nice cars.
.

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Cool, that makes perfect logical sense..

12.9 for the F6 is the best journo time we can expect that, but we all know there are so many who run 12.5, lets just close our eyes becuase the 12.5 is just to quick...regardless of what you want to use for 1/4 mile reference, these are real owners of these real cars and these are the times they are getting and all these guys dont drive and review cars for a living, novice drivers not pro's.

Go the Aussie built turbo 6 still waiting to be caught in price and performance.
Top Gear ''Best performance car in the world under $100,000 the F6''
F6 has the score on the board now just waiting for the next contender!!
Turbo Envy.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by SpoolMan

Pinnacle of what the $150,000 price tag? ....
I would take a GT and a F6 for the same price and have 2 very nice cars.
.


12.9 for the F6 is the best journo time we can expect that, but we all know there are so many who run 12.5, lets just close our eyes becuase the 12.5 is just to quick...regardless of what you want to use for 1/4 mile reference, these are real owners of these real cars and these are the times they are getting and all these guys dont drive and review cars for a living, novice drivers not pro's.

Go the Aussie built turbo 6 still waiting to be caught in price and performance.
Top Gear ''Best performance car in the world under $100,000 the F6''
F6 has the score on the board now just waiting for the next contender!!
Turbo Envy.

Mark.. the W427 the the best Australian made performance car, end of story, regardless of its price tag.

The F6 is the best Australian made performance car under 75K...

The BEST official time any Mag has got in REAL world conditions is as you've said a 12.9, so the F6 is a 12.9 sec car.. nothing difficult to understand about that, its a fantastic car and a 12.9 is scintillatingly fast.
The fact that other people have gone quicker at drag strips in optimised conditions with light loads, sticky tyres, sticky tracks etc has little relevance to the topic or how 99.9% of people drive or experience these cars in the REAL WORLD....

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Mark.. the W427 the the best Australian made performance car, end of story, regardless of its price tag.

The F6 is the best Australian made performance car under 75K...

The BEST official time any Mag has got in REAL world conditions is as you've said a 12.9, so the F6 is a 12.9 sec car.. nothing difficult to understand about that.
The fact that other people have gone quicker at drag strips in optimized conditions has little relevance to the topic...

You choose to always balk and anything to do with turbo cars and there performance achievements, this is why you wanted to use magazine times.
The slower W427 may be your performance King but it isn't mine, you have a different story book it may have ended for you but my book never ended like yours.
So what if a guy takes his car to the track and its a cold day or night, the idea of racing is to get the best time out of your car on the day, this is the case with any person racing any car they want the best times.
The times I am quoting are all Factory Dunlop Rubber...
Little relevance, what car are you driving as a daily is yours or company car, I am yet to see you at any events or cruises.
It maybe little relevance to you, but as you already know our most popular events here on other message boards in Australia are 400 meter flat racing and every magazine covers this in there reviews also.....maybe you should come out and enjoy the experience sometime, we have a meeting on the 24th July step back from the keyboard and lets go full throttle, I promise you its more fun.

Just to clarify I never made up the F6 was the best sports sedan in the world under $100,000 this was Top Gears words, as used in this FPV add.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhvxEywniVk
A review with the 12.9
http://www.caradvice.com.au/48162/fp...iew-road-test/.

Turbo Envy...Yeah lets close our eyes, I did once then I sold my Boss and purchased now what is my 2nd turbo Falcon.

[The Monty]

Whats the quickest a WD40 has gone on a normal road surface?
Most of the times these people pull at the drags have standard tyres, normal fuel, normal loads and weigh a normal weight. The F6 rips the WD40 a new one down the 1/4. Anyone who cant see that is just kidding themselves. Even the FG xr6t that went 12.5 the other night, the driver is over 110kg. Not exactly an optimised race car driver. Just a general Joe Blow.
The new GT will be fast, not as fast as the F6, but as fast as the GTS and maybe just pip it at the post. Maybe if they start taking a few lb's out of the F6 from the factory they would have a better chance.

[prydey]

i'm with 4vman on this one. too many people 'know someone' who's done a xx.xx down the 1/4, and yet this gets compared to a journo time. does that mean, if i go down the strip, and record a 12.5 in my car, i can then pick up a magazine off the shelf, flick to the back pages and see all the cars my car is 'better' than??

does anyone know if a w427 has been run by an owner somewhere? trap speed tells you that most of the issues are putting the power down. i'm sure if some of the 'owners' of the w427 used the same techniques as the 'superior' f6 owners, the margin would be in the w427's favour.

[gtxb67]

although i hate to praise anything holden, what does the price tag have to do with the w427
the phase three was over $5000 back in 71 wasn't it. at the time my parents bought a house for $13,000
the same house now would be over $500,000 - that to me suggests the w427 was better value for money than a new phase 3 when comparing it to the australian dream
the phase 3 was a very expensive car at the time, but none of us look at its new price when singing it's praises - just it's power and handling abilities

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by prydey

i'm with 4vman on this one. too many people 'know someone' who's done a xx.xx down the 1/4, and yet this gets compared to a journo time. does that mean, if i go down the strip, and record a 12.5 in my car, i can then pick up a magazine off the shelf, flick to the back pages and see all the cars my car is 'better' than??

does anyone know if a w427 has been run by an owner somewhere? trap speed tells you that most of the issues are putting the power down. i'm sure if some of the 'owners' of the w427 used the same techniques as the 'superior' f6 owners, the margin would be in the w427's favour.

I cant imagine there are too many people who have spent that kind of money on a W427 are all that interested in drag racing..
The XR6T and to a far lesser extent the F6 has appealed to the "modder " enthusiast, drag racing goes hand in hand with this..

AGAIN, and as the thread starter has CLEARLY stated, mag times are the reference for this discussion...
All things being equal the W427 has come out king in this area, the speculation of this thread is will the new S/C 5.0 topple it....

[prydey]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I cant imagine there are too many people who have spent that kind of money on a W427 are all that interested in drag racing..

you are probably correct, but many on here have 'proved' that its easy to beat a journo set time, although apparently the journo's got the best out of the w427!

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by glavas

w427 is king. who cares about 400m times. a 7 liter 640nm 375kw from na is just unreal. i just want one.

Go and bang your GM drum over the road as the WD40 is going to be under threat from a car that will sell in proper numbers as it has a proper price tag

[FreddyDUZ747]

Yesssss,im a MODDER enthusiast. .

What do I call my Uncle who has an GT and F6,rich or non biassed like myself?

Dont know if this is stock.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxG0vMGz58g

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by prydey

you are probably correct, but many on here have 'proved' that its easy to beat a journo set time, although apparently the journo's got the best out of the w427!

Yes.. dont worry, the irony of that isnt lost on me.

Yes its easy to beat a journo time if you use a sticky track, low tyre pressures, 1/4 tank of octane boosted 98, no passenger.. roll out, intake mods, etc etc
The simple fact is far far more people have devoted allot of time and money going to extremes with the T cars, the W427 simply will never get that kind of attention, so as per the intent of the thread mag times provides a level playing field for comparrison...

[data_mine]

Originally Posted by gilmore

Dont know if this is stock.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxG0vMGz58g

With a big CV Performance sticker and this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTa4S...eature=related

I doubt it.

[FreddyDUZ747]

Originally Posted by data_mine

With a big CV Performance sticker and this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTa4S...eature=related

I doubt it.

Going by the uploaded times its tuned.Very impressive still,chirping 4th gear on factory Stones.Against a manual F6 its stock times will stack up fairly well,its only the ZF its chasing.

I also dont agree in the mag times being a level playing field if quoted times are not given with the drivers name and the other car in comparrison having the same driver/conditions and track.That would be a level playing field for mag tests/results.

After all abouts.we want facts not their abouts.

[Boosted]

Originally Posted by gilmore

Dont know if this is stock.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxG0vMGz58g

This car was tuned, there was a lot written about it at the time on ls1.com.au, including before and after dyno power figures and 1/4mile track times. Do a search on that forum and you'll find a lot of information, if interested.

[Bossxr8]

HSV's official times were 0-100 in 4.7 secs, Clubsport was 4.99 secs, and considering that HSV's times are an absolute joke and no one has even got close to them that 4.7 was probably crap too. F6 and G6ET have recorded 0-100 in 5.1, but not from Ford/FPV who don't publish figures.

[irish2]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

although i hate to praise anything holden, what does the price tag have to do with the w427
the phase three was over $5000 back in 71 wasn't it. at the time my parents bought a house for $13,000
the same house now would be over $500,000 - that to me suggests the w427 was better value for money than a new phase 3 when comparing it to the australian dream
the phase 3 was a very expensive car at the time, but none of us look at its new price when singing it's praises - just it's power and handling abilities

Base model Commodore $36,990. W427 $150,000. 4 times the price of the base model.

XY sedan $2606. XY GTHO ~$5302. 2 times the price of the base model.

Far less price difference there mate!

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by irish2

Base model Commodore $36,990. W427 $150,000.

XY sedan $2606. XY GTHO ~$5000.

Far less price difference there mate!

of course - but what about research and development costs

who cares about the cost of the vehicle to the base one. it is what you get for your money - which is why the w427 is so much more expensive in relevant terms than the phase 3

and as much as it pains me to say it, it is the overall car that counts. prices mean nothing - whether holden likes wasting money is irrelvant. whether ford has good business sense is irrelevant. the w427 would beat all australian cars in virtually every area but price - and of course looks


but then i am not trying to justify owning one of it's competitors by building the competitor into something it is not. i would much rather spend around $70,000 on an fpv than that thing, but when comparing the two the fpv only wins on price

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

of course - but what about research and development costs

who cares about the cost of the vehicle to the base one. it is what you get for your money - which is why the w427 is so much more expensive in relevant terms than the phase 3

and as much as it pains me to say it, it is the overall car that counts. prices mean nothing - whether holden likes wasting money is irrelvant. whether ford has good business sense is irrelevant. the w427 would beat all australian cars in virtually every area but price - and of course looks


but then i am not trying to justify owning one of it's competitors by building the competitor into something it is not. i would much rather spend around $70,000 on an fpv than that thing, but when comparing the two the fpv only wins on price

That is the point.. price was never raised as relevant..

N.B the Phase 3 price example is a bad one because Ford sold HO's at a massive loss....

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

N.B the Phase 3 price example is a bad one because Ford sold HO's at a massive loss....

true, but my reason for mentioning price was because they were still very expensive then, especially when compared to an xu1. yet us ford fans just sing it's many praises and forget about how expensive it was for the average joe. yet with the w427 everyone picks on the the price and ignores it's good points
while the w427 does absolutely nothing for me - it and the phase 3 are probably the two best cars australia has produced and are the only two kings aus has made thus far, no matter how cheap or expensive they were

as the saying goes - speed costs money, how fast do you want to go

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

true, but my reason for mentioning price was because they were still very expensive then, especially when compared to an xu1. yet us ford fans just sing it's many praises and forget about how expensive it was for the average joe. yet with the w427 everyone picks on the the price and ignores it's good points
while the w427 does absolutely nothing for me - it and the phase 3 are probably the two best cars australia has produced and are the only two kings aus has made thus far, no matter how cheap or expensive they were

as the saying goes - speed costs money, how fast do you want to go

Ford had a reason to lose money on it. What was HSV's?

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

Ford had a reason to lose money on it. What was HSV's?

i am not saying much more, because i do not wish to praise holden (or have it sound like i am)

ford lost money on them to put the cars on the track. winning on sunday meant sell on monday so even though the racing program lost money, it was for the greater good

holden was probably not planning on losing money, when they started, but even if they were - every young kid from 10-25 in the country knows about the w427 - impress them today, they will buy your car tomorrow - even if they planned for losing money, it was for the greater good
just like the racing program in the mid 80's-early 90's and keeping the v8. how many of those kids growing up in the 80's now follow ford - and how many now want a commode dore - it doesn't have to be a w427, just any commode dore will do for them. and that sells cars. surprisingly enough, build a car people want and they will even settle for it's little brother

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

i am not saying much more, because i do not wish to praise holden (or have it sound like i am)

ford lost money on them to put the cars on the track. winning on sunday meant sell on monday so even though the racing program lost money, it was for the greater good
holden was probably not planning on losing money, when they started, but even if they were - every young kid from 10-25 in the country knows about the w427 - impress them today, they will buy your car tomorrow - even if they planned for losing money, it was for the greater good
just like the racing program in the mid 80's-early 90's and keeping the v8. how many of those kids growing up in the 80's now follow ford - and how many now want a commode dore - it doesn't have to be a w427, just any commode dore will do for them. and that sells cars. surprisingly enough, build a car people want and they will even settle for it's little brother

It's price will always be a contentious issue. As I outlined earlier HSV screwed up with assembling it, and they wanted the buyer to pay for that screw up. In the end they pulled the pin on it.

This has never been a problem with the HO because Ford avoided that. Plus, no one can claim for the W427 what you can for the HO simply because it never raced.

Any "Ford kid" across the country will laugh in the face of anyone who mentions the W427 by pointing at the giant-killing F6 (or it's little brother), which is at less than half price.

[gtxb67]

the thread has nothing to do with the cost of the car or what hsv did or what ford did

the thead is about where the upcoming fpv will fit into the performance car market. one of the options is that it will dethrone the w427 as king of the road, and as usual many get their back up because their cheaper car is almost as fast as it, so therefore it cannot be the king of the road, because it is too expensive - boo hoo. it is the car that is being compared not the price



and yes, maybe some ford kids (myself included) will laugh, but surprisingly enough for every one that laughs, there will be 3 laughing back at them

[prydey]

just one other note regarding the w427, the timing of its release couldn't have come at a worse time. holden/gm, along with everyone else, failed to see the GFC coming.

but enough about the price and whether or not the company made or lost money.

as gtxb67 says, its about the car, and whether it will retain its crown.