Suggestions for FGII Wagon Designs.

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by Till_Lind

I always felt the rear window hindered AU/BA wagons looking good, but that wagon there looks pretty damn good.

i don't like the style of having the rear side window's top higher than the windows of the rear side doors. reminds me too much of a hearse if the rear side panel glass. if i were designing it, i'd keep the rear-side window the same height as the rear-side door glass.

[OffRoadFalcon]

Yeah, all the windows will be even all the way along the car.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Brazen

That would have been the case with EA to BF where a fully pressed door panel was used -meaning different doors for sedan and wagon. FG is different it uses a pressed lower with a upper window frame attached. All that needs to be changed is the window frame - no new door pressings are needed for FG wagon.

That only helps if you're changing the height of the glass, not the length and a longer door
means a new lower pressing along with a new upper window frame.

[Road_Warrior]

...and a man whose last name was Polites told me once that it costs $50 Million to develop new doors from scratch. This was in 1999/2000 dollars though before everything was heavily into virtual design.

So assuming that cost still rings true today, you're looking at $100 million just for the doors. Then you've got the tailgate...

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by jpd80

That only helps if you're changing the height of the glass, not the length and a longer door
means a new lower pressing along with a new upper window frame.

But Falcon wagon has never had longer doors, the only reason why the doors needed to be changed previously was that the entire door was a pressing (EA to BF). Look how an AU door forms part of the roof. As such, to change the window frame for a squarer glass meant changing the pressing.

FG is different, no longer is the window frame part of the pressing, the window frame is now separate, like Commodore, Camry etc. Commodore wagon and sedan have identical door pressing, just with a different window frame. FG is a lot easier and cheaper to make a wagon this time round.

All semantics anyway, Burela canned it (along with local Focus/Kuga). Be interested to see the designs!

[OffRoadFalcon]

That's interesting... easier and cheaper= more chance of us getting a wagon... too bad we can't jump to the future, just to see if we ever do get our wagon back.

The designs may take several weeks to complete (when I draw, if I make the slightest mistake, I always MUST correct it... I'm a perfectionist when it comes to cars) I also draw in very fine detail. I'll have fairly limited time to spend on the designs, but will spend as much as I can. Probably post up some updates too. Once I'm happy with the pencil designs, I'll redraw over the top of the originals (I'll have photocopies though) with a very fine black pen. Similar to this drawing of John Bruisma's VE Commodore rally car. Proportions aren't quite perfect in this drawing, I drew it quickly and traced it onto watercolour paper and did a painting, then i inked the original.


I'll say again, if anyone can post up any FG mkII pics they see, I'll appreciate it. Need some reference for the front styling. Haven't seen a lot yet.
Thanks
Chris

[Gothefalcon]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

It Seems A Wagon That Is Practical And A Wagon That Sells Are Mutually Exclusive

This is the challenge ! Some thinking outside the square is required !

[OffRoadFalcon]

...outside a square...

[Gothefalcon]

Originally Posted by madwag

it could be a big ask but the i think a 2 way tailgate and wind down window of old would be awesome!

Chris... I think you have to look at the XA-XC Wagon to understand this suggestion better... the two way tailgate required the back window to wind down into the tailgate... from there you had the option of dropping the tailgate down (hinged at the bottom) or opening it like a door (hinged to one side) It was quite a clever mechanism (true American inginuity) and was so....o good to use ! Need a longer tray to carry something (like a ute can)... drop the tailgate down... need to get to an item near the back of the seat.... open the door (and you can stand a lot closer, just as you can with the current lift up design)... want to put something smallish in the back... just lower the window and lean in... much more versatile! It was heavy... and all the old sliding glass tailgates, rusted out eventually... but modern steel and rust protection should have rectified this problem by now! I had a 302 XB GS Fairmont Wagon with this feature... absolutely loved it ! & do miss it !

[Gothefalcon]

Originally Posted by CarsAreMyLife

...outside a square...

Yep... here's a definition I found...

"Thinking outside the box (sometimes erroneously called "thinking out of the box" or "thinking outside the square") is to think differently, unconventionally or from a new perspective. This phrase often refers to novel or creative thinking.

This is sometimes called a process of lateral thought. The catchphrase, or cliché, has become widely used in business environments, especially by management consultants and executive coaches, and has spawned a number of advertising slogans. To think outside the box is to look further and to try not thinking of the obvious things, but to try thinking beyond them."

Exactly what is required here Mate....

[OffRoadFalcon]

No I do already understand those tailgates... but I reckon that we'd be more likely to get a uplifting tailgate, or open the top and then fold down the bottom. Would be good to have a look at one of those wagons. I'll have a think about that one. Guess that might be a better idea...

I agree it was very very clever. Maybe I can integrate it. Wonder if it would be possible for it to open in all those ways... Love the XA-XC wagons. They don't get better than what you had! Love that model, got pics of it?

Lots of thinking outside the box... the box being any wagon we have seen before. This will be interesting, wonder what I'll come up with...

[Gothefalcon]

Originally Posted by CarsAreMyLife

No I do already understand those tailgates... but I reckon that we'd be more likely to get a uplifting tailgate, or open the top and then fold down the bottom. Would be good to have a look at one of those wagons. I'll have a think about that one. Guess that might be a better idea...

I agree it was very very clever. Maybe I can integrate it. Wonder if it would be possible for it to open in all those ways... Love the XA-XC wagons. They don't get better than what you had! Love that model, got pics of it?

Hmmm... I do have pics.... but not electronic copies.... that wasn't invented yet !!! (Now THAT makes me feel old !! Ha ha !!)

Cant see all three ways working !!?? But... no reason why a lift up section couldn't also hinge sideways... just like the base does !!?? They could lock together when opended sideways... and split otherwise !!?? Top bit would look better if it was "glass over frame" so it didn't look like a panelvan.... but hey.... you're only playing around with ideas at this stage... so why not give it a go??? Ideas are where all the future stuff comes from !!

[OffRoadFalcon]

I reckon all three ways could work. Certainly not impossible. Would take a bit of designing. I'm just doing an exterior design, so I don't have to design how everything will work. But I reckon it could work. Would end up being a very versatile tailgate.

For now I'm just getting ideas, and will begin the designs when I'm ready to, which will be quite soon, within the next few days probably.

If you have a scanner (we have a printer, scanner, fax, and photocopier as one machine) you could scan the photos up to your computer and load them to photobucket, only if you could be bothered with all the mucking around.

[Road_Warrior]

How about a 2 piece tailgate like the Territory has (ie glass lifts up separate from the whole thing) but the bottom part can either open up as normal with the whole tailgate, or it can fold flat by itself like a ute tailgate?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Brazen

But Falcon wagon has never had longer doors, the only reason why the doors needed to be changed previously was that the entire door was a pressing (EA to BF). Look how an AU door forms part of the roof. As such, to change the window frame for a squarer glass meant changing the pressing.

My intel says that the wagon was to be developed concurrently with the LWB Fairlane and share the longer doors.
When Fairlane was discontinued, there was a suggestion of reverting to sedan door but I don't think it got any farther than that.

[Racecraft]

i'm no p/s guru but i have a spare Terry @ work

roof chop, change the rear parcel window and you sorta have a wagon...

A 2" body section and shorter rear door and you'd get close


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[jpd80]

First, apologies for wrecking your photoshop (I'm hopeless)

but giving wagon a slightly higher roof line/using terry type doors/seats might be better?

[Nikked]

I struggle to picture a FG wagon (fullsize) a sports wagon could be pulled off, but the FG's lines would be difficult to stretch, the belt line kicks up too much, and the rear already sticks out too far...

Unless it had a CX-7 CX-9 type of kick...not sure.

I still love this though...

[something wrong]

Originally Posted by Nikked

I struggle to picture a FG wagon (fullsize) a sports wagon could be pulled off, but the FG's lines would be difficult to stretch, the belt line kicks up too much, and the rear already sticks out too far...

Unless it had a CX-7 CX-9 type of kick...not sure.

I still love this though...

image

I would have bought one of these instead of my S2 SV6 sportswagon, as I love the look of my sportswagon just not the badge, plus I would have loved a XR6t sportswagon

[Gothefalcon]

Originally Posted by jpd80

My intel says that the wagon was to be developed concurrently with the LWB Fairlane and share the longer doors.
When Fairlane was discontinued, there was a suggestion of reverting to sedan door but I don't think it got any farther than that.

Fairlane doesn't have longer doors either ! The only difference is the top corner, closest to the rear of the car, is a more squared off design, as opposed to the sweeping arc design of the short wheelbase sedan.

The only Ozzy longer wheelbase vehicles to also have longer doors were the 60s Valiant YIP... the 70s Ford LTD & the latest Holden Statesman!

Most other Ozzy LWB vehicles have a large (or larger) filler panel between the back door & the wheel arch, to make up for the stretch in wheelbase!

[Gothefalcon]

Originally Posted by Nikked

I struggle to picture a FG wagon (fullsize) a sports wagon could be pulled off, but the FG's lines would be difficult to stretch, the belt line kicks up too much, and the rear already sticks out too far...

Unless it had a CX-7 CX-9 type of kick...not sure.

I still love this though...

image

For me.. this would need a deeper tail light ! It is looks too "squinty eyed" with too much painted surface ! Larger tail lights ala 1st gen Terry would help to balance the vast amount of sheet metal (& plastic) at the rear.

[OffRoadFalcon]

Personally, I don't like that FG XR8 Sportwagon pic... I just don't like that shape, and the lights look too small. I want it to look and be fairly long and to look sleek and swift, if you get what I mean. The rear shape will be a bit similar to the last wagon. The way it finishes and slopes to the bumper. Dont want it to be too rounded, because I often don't like that. Its hard to describe the picture I've formed so far. Hopefully it won't disappoint when I do the designs. It'll be a lot of trial and error, so bear with me.
Thanks
Chris

[OffRoadFalcon]

Anyone got any ideas for a new roo bar. I wanna design one that suits the car, and is integrated into the front bumper when fitted... should be interesting...

[max_torq]

There is a kind of roof-line some SUV have that could fit a wagon, where there are tinted glass panels in the roof, over the top of the passenger and cargo areas. This is a higher roofline than a sportswagon, and more practical for cargo, but also interesting; like a vista cruiser.

[Chopped]

Originally Posted by CarsAreMyLife

image

Cool drawing, did you win a prize at the show?.
---------------
As for a future falcon wagon. I think it will need to look sleek and sporty.
The big boxy, practical wagons are dead IMO, they won't sell well.

Sleek, sexy wagons are the next big thing IMO.

examples -

[madwag]

Originally Posted by max_torq

There is a kind of roof-line some SUV have that could fit a wagon, where there are tinted glass panels in the roof, over the top of the passenger and cargo areas. This is a higher roofline than a sportswagon, and more practical for cargo, but also interesting; like a vista cruiser.

hehe can it have wood grain exterior trim panels too?

[Nikked]

I cant see why a sports wagon couldn't co-exist with the terri...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Gothefalcon

Fairlane doesn't have longer doors either ! The only difference is the top corner, closest to the rear of the car, is a more squared off design, as opposed to the sweeping arc design of the short wheelbase sedan.

You're not listening, the plan originally for an FG Fairlane was to use longer doors but that plan
was scuttled by poor sales and with it any plans for longer doors on the FG Staionwagon proposal.
Money was deliberately diverted away from these proposals into Territory because Ford felt that
the sales and return on investment would be better.

IMO, they shoulda given a new FG S/W a whirl but not sure that would
have covered coats without EcoLPI there to drive sales forward.

Perhaps two moves, a LWB Falcon sedan with Fairlane boot for taxis
and then add a sport wagon back to that?

[Uncle Niceguy]

with regards to easy functionality for the rear doors well to simply change the way they door opens on the hinges you could take the centre pin out making it let go and wala the doors open the way u want them to whether it be like patrol doors, ute door or territory door just remove the centre pin in the hinge and away you go and the centre would be held in by the usual handle E.G the patrol.

[Gothefalcon]

Originally Posted by jpd80

You're not listening, the plan originally for an FG Fairlane was to use longer doors but that plan
was scuttled by poor sales and with it any plans for longer doors on the FG Staionwagon proposal.

Perhaps two moves, a LWB Falcon sedan with Fairlane boot for taxis
and then add a sport wagon back to that?

Ahh !! You didn't say it THAT way before !! Brings back memories of the Ex.... she expected me to read minds too !! Ha ha !! (Shudder)

Isn't a "LWB Falcon sedan with Fairlane boot"... a Fairlane?? Or do you mean bring back the base model Fairlane, as was avialble in the 60s & 70s... which was basically a bigger falcon500,without all the Fairlane luxo trimmings?

Ford Owned the Luxo market in this country with Fairlane/LTD.... but the bean counters slowly stripped that away by undermining these vehicles through lack of differentiation ! Slowly but surely with each new model... came less and less changes, until they just looked like Fairmont Ghia's with a bigger bum! Even inside, it's hard to tell, unless you are a trainspotter !! A very sad demise indeed! Holden killed off the Statey & Ute for a while, then brought them back... perhaps Ford can do the same with Fairlane & Wagon !!??

It's up to you Chris !! Design a Wagon that no-one can resist... not even the bean counters at Ford !! Ha ha !!!