4 litre straight 6 engines, Ford v World

[sprjenkins]

Ford be shamed, our latest 4 litre straight 6 puts out 185kw, the TVR Sagaris also is a 4 litre DOHC straight 6, however it puts out 298kw or 400hp. Not bad for a factory 4 litre. Although there are a lot worse engines about i.e. Dodge Viper V10, that is 8.3 litres and puts out a, wait for it, mind blowing 400hp. Although the Dodge has 630nm of torque to the TVR's 420nm, I've had a brilliant idea, why dont Dodge put two TVR engines together next time to make an 8 litre engine.

So here's my question, why don't australia/america make performance engines that are anywhere near as good as Japan and Europe? i'd really like to know?

The only exception I can think of is the Holden 5 litre with the black head as found on the torana, which for its day was very powerful, am I wrong, can anyone think of another one?

[fordAU]

Are you serious mate, whats this crap about Ford should be ashamed about the inline 6 which is a great motor, looked after they will last for many many years with little problems other than a headgasket.

No point talking about the TVR Sagaris etc, totally different type of vehicle targeted for an exclusive market, cost in Australia estimated about $150,000 and I bet it won't last as long as Ford's 6.

[Yellow_Festiva]

i thought it was 190kw but anyway.....

well the fact that it comes from a "performance factory" should be taken into consideration surely!

however i was thinking similar lines.... there is a current Alfa model with a 3.2 litre GM based engine of the same family as the crapadore that puts out roughly the same power as the 3.6L so i guess engines for base models are kept at a low tune on purpose to allow for expansion and to make higher or performance models with better outputs based on the same engine.

But at the same time im wondering where technology has gone, was there not a famous 1.6 "100kw" corolla engine some 10-15 years ago?? if thats correct why are the current crop of 1.8 litre engines making 100kw? perhaps engine technology through evolution allows them to be the high-po 140kw engines naturally but if they were all standard 140kw there would be minimal room for model advancement.....

Well if you crunch the figures the way you did...
2x1.8L Corolla engines @ 140kw=280kw, not bad for 3.6 litres... torque is 360nm as well i think for the said 3.6L

Another truly advanced engine is the honda S2000 engine... round 180kw from 2 litres... so then a 4 litre donk with the same wiz bang features should make 360kw?? yikes.... now THOSE are some figures!

food for thought....

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

Another truly advanced engine is the honda S2000 engine... round 180kw from 2 litres... so then a 4 litre donk with the same wiz bang features should make 360kw?? yikes.... now THOSE are some figures!

food for thought....

You forgot to add without a turbo also ;) . They are an awesome engine but I would think it might be some time before we even see a hint of that sort of tuning in our cars.

[XR8-260]

The Falcon's inline 6 would produce well over 200kw with a higher rev ceiling.

[Joes_meat]

Remember, displacement isn't the only way to measure engine performace.

The 7.0 litre LS7 pushrod V8 engine from the newest z06 Corvette puts out 377KW from factory.

The 5.0Litre DOHC V10 from the newest BMW M5 puts out 373KW.

Sounds like the BMW has the Corvettes power-weight ratio thouroughly licked, doesn't it?

However, the physical dimensions and weight of the 7.0 Litre are actually less than the 5.0L V-10. It has better fuel-economy and a much lower build cost to boot.

Now... To the actual point...
Have you read any reviews on or driven the new Aurion? 200KW from a smaller engine than the Falcon. But it's revvier, torque is higher up in the rev range. The Ford 4.0L is designed for torque and fuel-economy. It's what the Australian public want to drive. I don't want to have to kick down to second gear while I'm overtaking - I want to ride on the wave of low-down torque. Even Fords turbo six has oodles of torque, right from idle. The V8's really is the odd engine out. Much revvier. It's a Canadian engine if memory serves...

Ford could easily make a high-power six to rival the Japanese and European peak-power outputs. They already have all the nessisary gear in the BF:
- DOHC
- Variable exhaust and intake timing
- Plenty of displacement
- Straight-six smoothness

The only thing the 4.0L is lacking is direct injection and the stroke is a bit long.

Mind you, with the new six-speed auto, Ford may be able to afford to push that torque band up a little...


Yellow festiva: the old 4-AGE 1.6 was a real screamer, basically a race car engine (almost identical to the Ford Cosworth 1.6L racing engines of the same years.) 7,700 redline, DOHC, 4 or 5 ports per cylinder etc. However, the newer 1.8L toyota engines are much more of an economy-based engine, with drivability in mind. Sure you can have 100KW at 7,700RPM, but most people want 30KW at 1800RPM.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by sprjenkins

Ford be shamed, our latest 4 litre straight 6 puts out 185kw, the TVR Sagaris also is a 4 litre DOHC straight 6, however it puts out 298kw or 400hp. Not bad for a factory 4 litre. Although there are a lot worse engines about i.e. Dodge Viper V10, that is 8.3 litres and puts out a, wait for it, mind blowing 400hp. Although the Dodge has 630nm of torque to the TVR's 420nm, I've had a brilliant idea, why dont Dodge put two TVR engines together next time to make an 8 litre engine.

So here's my question, why don't australia/america make performance engines that are anywhere near as good as Japan and Europe? i'd really like to know?

The only exception I can think of is the Holden 5 litre with the black head as found on the torana, which for its day was very powerful, am I wrong, can anyone think of another one?

Ok first of all you need to get some facts straight. The 8.3L V10 Viper makes 500hp 525ftlbs (373kW 711Nm). The old 8.0L V10 Viper had 450hp 490ftlbs (336kW 664Nm). The Falcon makes 190kW not 185. And 298kW is 399hp not 400.

Ok that's out of the way then. Moving right along...

The Sagaris has a 4.0L Inline-Six with Dry Sump lubrication and I'll bet some high compression on it too, to make, according to TVR's own website, the following figures...

380bhp (284kW) @ 7000-7500rpm and 349ftlbs (473Nm) @ 5000rpm. It's rev limiter is set at 7800rpm.

Comparatively, a Falcon 4.0 has Wet Sump lubrication and runs low compression, and makes the following figures...

190kW (255bhp) @ 5250rpm and 383Nm (283ftlbs) @ 2500rpm. The rev limit is 6000rpm like every BA/BF, bar the SOHC V8s.

So then, we've got one engine with an expensive, highly strung setup, revving really high to make good power and one with a cheap, low stress setup revving low and making average power. Which one do you think is going to last a long time? Or more appropriately, which do you think is more appropriate for a 1.7 tonne family car? The one peaking torque at 2500rpm and carrying a fat curve throughout the rev range, right where its needed... or the one that needs to rev like mad to move, that propels a ~1000kg sports car?

Different engines for different things. Falcon's do 1,000,000km as taxi's on the original engines. I'd love to see a Sagaris get to 1/4 of that without the whole thing imploding. It won't happen.

If you want small engines from Ford with huge numbers... look at cars like the 1986 Ford RS200 Evo... 2.1litre Turbo 4cyl, 650bhp. That's 485kW, from a 2.1litre 4 cyl turbo.

As for American engines, no comment. I don't like them very much and probably never will. Improving on them, sure, but otherwise... well, yeah.

[OzJavelin]

Originally Posted by Steffo

As for American engines, no comment. I don't like them very much and probably never will. Improving on them, sure, but otherwise... well, yeah.

Sorry to go O/T, but ..

Yeah, yeah .. American engines (like Aussie designed counter parts) are all useless, big, fat, lazy engines aren't they; eg. Mopar 426 Hemi, Ford 429 SOHC, Chev LS6/7 454, Pontiac 421SD, etc, etc. That's why the smallblock Chev is still the most popular pseudo-performance engine in the world ... 'cos it's junk .. isn't it? ;)

American engines were designed for American applications, which like it or not, tend to fit Australian applications too; simple design/construction, easy to repair, good performance for cost, can allow a family sedan a multifaceted role as people mover, tow vehicle and as some degree of performance.

Australian FORD Forums is primarily about Fords and Ford - like it or not - is an American. I think they should be proud of that heritage ... if you don't like it, then maybe you need to think of buying European or Asian?

[AWD Chaser]

Try towing 2400kg on a TVR....

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by OzJavelin

Sorry to go O/T, but ..

Yeah, yeah .. American engines (like Aussie designed counter parts) are all useless, big, fat, lazy engines aren't they; eg. Mopar 426 Hemi, Ford 429 SOHC, Chev LS6/7 454, Pontiac 421SD, etc, etc. That's why the smallblock Chev is still the most popular pseudo-performance engine in the world ... 'cos it's junk .. isn't it? ;)

American engines were designed for American applications, which like it or not, tend to fit Australian applications too; simple design/construction, easy to repair, good performance for cost, can allow a family sedan a multifaceted role as people mover, tow vehicle and as some degree of performance.

Australian FORD Forums is primarily about Fords and Ford - like it or not - is an American. I think they should be proud of that heritage ... if you don't like it, then maybe you need to think of buying European or Asian?

Well first of all I own a German car (Fiesta Zetec). Ford spans alot more countries and continents then just America. The history it has in Europe, for example, is immense, and the Ford Escort is still the most successful rally car in history. There's also a huge Australian history indepenant of the US activities. And I notice you're listing some of the best and most famous old engines. What about talking about some of the junk they've made? There's alot more of it. Like the 305 and 350 TPI Chev's or the 400ci Pontiacs of the late 70s that made 180hp. Or the GM 3800 Series II V6 that appalled many mid-90s US sedan and Camaro V6 owners etc etc. The SBC is popular for the reasons you stated before... simple design/construction, easy to repair and now with the time its been around, performance to cost ratio is good in any country.

From a technical point of view, especially some more modern examples from GM and Dodge in paticular, there's not much to like. They're big, they're extremley thirsty and inefficient. With the odd exception like Ford's 5.0 'Cammer' engine, or the Dry-Sump 5.4 in the Ford GT etc.

But then that's what I like. And in no way do I want to make anyone else like what I like, just a statement of opinion. There are alot of US engines I like, alot of them being in that group of famous old motors you posted up, and some newer slightly less known around here stuff, like the Buick LC2 V6 as a good example.

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by OzJavelin

Sorry to go O/T, but ..

Yeah, yeah .. American engines (like Aussie designed counter parts) are all useless, big, fat, lazy engines aren't they; eg. Mopar 426 Hemi, Ford 429 SOHC, Chev LS6/7 454, Pontiac 421SD, etc, etc. That's why the smallblock Chev is still the most popular pseudo-performance engine in the world ... 'cos it's junk .. isn't it? ;)

Lets not forget the HEMI 6 a giant killer in its day..

[sprjenkins]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Ok first of all you need to get some facts straight. The 8.3L V10 Viper makes 500hp 525ftlbs (373kW 711Nm). The old 8.0L V10 Viper had 450hp 490ftlbs (336kW 664Nm). The Falcon makes 190kW not 185. And 298kW is 399hp not 400.

Ok that's out of the way then. Moving right along...

The Sagaris has a 4.0L Inline-Six with Dry Sump lubrication and I'll bet some high compression on it too, to make, according to TVR's own website, the following figures...

380bhp (284kW) @ 7000-7500rpm and 349ftlbs (473Nm) @ 5000rpm. It's rev limiter is set at 7800rpm.

Ok so first things first, acording to Top Gear and Supercars.net the Sagaris now makes 400hp which is 298.3kw, remember no one likes a smart alec, as to whether these two sources are wrong or if TVR just needs to update there website who knows.

Secondly I did say the 8.3 litre Viper didn't I, I meant the 8 litre. hence putting together two 4 litres to make an 8 litre. Which was in the first model which did put out 400hp, This had a 7990cc engine putting out 298.3 kw. This was in 1994, it was in 1997 that it was uprated to 450 hp.

The BF Falcon has 190kw, but doesn't the BA have 185kw. So while I was wrong in saying latest, you get the idea, and 5 kw isn't going to blow anyone's minds. We have both versions at work and I can't tell the difference.

So now that that's out of the way. Moving right along.

So yes, there is a valid point in saying that the most common ford straight six will be sold in the family car. Ford however does also do sports cars, Fpv does faster ones.

What i'm saying is firstly if you can get that sort of performance out of this size engine, why can't we have a reliable 230 kw NA XR6. Then imagine what you could do with the turbo/ supercharged version.

TVR's aren't kit cars, they come factory built with factory warrantys even though they may not have the reliability of a taxi. If a small group of people at a minor sports car maker can do this, why can't Ford with a much bigger budget and much more people do better.

Now I know it will cost to buy a TVR engine than a Ford engine but i'm guessing most of that can be explained by build volumes. I'm sure if Ford put their minds to it they could come up with a reliable, cheap, mass produced 230kw na 4 litre. If not they could always do what is happening in the US and sell it aftermarket like the Cammer engine.

While the TVR is also a lot more expensive than a XR6, how much do you think an XR6/XR6 Turbo would cost if they were being produced in the same build volumes, I'm not saying it would be as much as a TVR but it wouldn't be cheap.

So yeah while the TVR Sagaris is roughly $124,000AUD or $50,000 GBP at current exchange rate , a 6 litre Vauxhall Monaro starts from $92,000 AUD. The same car in Australia was roughly 55 to 60K.

I don't believe this is taxes or tarrifs because don't other shared products sell at roughly the same price after conversion?
So if this is true and all cars are roughly a third more expensive over there, a TVR here should cost roughly $82,000 if it was made by an Australian company.

[merlin]

Originally Posted by sprjenkins

Ford be shamed, our latest 4 litre straight 6 puts out 185kw, the TVR Sagaris also is a 4 litre DOHC straight 6, however it puts out 298kw or 400hp. Not bad for a factory 4 litre. Although there are a lot worse engines about i.e. Dodge Viper V10, that is 8.3 litres and puts out a, wait for it, mind blowing 400hp. Although the Dodge has 630nm of torque to the TVR's 420nm, I've had a brilliant idea, why dont Dodge put two TVR engines together next time to make an 8 litre engine.

So here's my question, why don't australia/america make performance engines that are anywhere near as good as Japan and Europe? i'd really like to know?

WTF are you serious? Its horses for courses. The 190kw Falcon engine isnt supposed to be a performance engine - its all in the components and tune. The TVR costs over 3 times what a standard Falcon does. If Ford charged $150K I'm sure it could produce that.

Or you could stop comparing a base model Falcon inline 6 to a high end supercar - how bout you actually compare Fords/FPV's performance marketed cars - the F6 is 270kw and wallops the TVR engine for torque yet is still half the price of the TVR and it could hose anything from Japan or Europe in that price range. I dont care if its blown its still a factory engine with warranty.

[Raptor]

Calm down OzJavelin,

While were slightly o/t the best thing about Aussie Fords is that they mate American style power and torque delivery with European style ride and handling. Best of both worlds

[xbgs351]

The head on the current Ford I6 is nothing special, but it doesn't need to be to satisfy Ford's customer requirements.

[Rev28K]

One of the reasons for the S2000’s high output is it’s high rev limit. To get a Falcon 6 to rev to 9000ish rpm you’d want to look at the bore/stroke ratio and remember that you get parasitic losses when you increase the number of cylinders.

When you compare outputs of the S2000/Falcon 6 the Ford is only 55% of the Honda’s efficiency if you use kw/litre, if you calculate using BMEP the Falcon’s efficiency jumps to 77% of the S2000’s. You’re not really comparing apples with apples (or being fair to Ford) when you compare the two engines.

P.S. TVR’s claimed power outputs have been “optimistic” in the past.

P.P.S. Alan Melling (?) the original designer of the TVR straight 6 JAP (?) engine is getting his own car up and running – called the Hellcat.

[Aaron_EF8]

The head on the current Ford I6 is nothing special, but it doesn't need to be to satisfy Ford's customer requirements.

Damn straight, I hear Ford are in talks to fit Dick Heads to the 2008 Falcon.

[AWD Chaser]

Originally Posted by Aaron_EF8

Damn straight, I hear Ford are in talks to fit Dick Heads to the 2008 Falcon.

Yeah - I heard that Holden have been using them for years already!

[Ruger]

i dont give a crap about our 4l vs theirs show us some in car videos of the beast!

Im just happy people around the world are using a 4L I6 i think its an awesome power output and should be admired not criticized.

If you sleeve the 4L block and square up the bore stroke ratio or even understroke it you could rev it harder but will the displacement loss have a negative effect on power? How about boring it out to square up the bore stroke ratio. Not enough room id say but unless you had a custom block.

Now lets compare this tvr engine to the almighty 265

[XR06T]

dont forget about all that torque that the s2000 has!!!?!?!??

and torque is what feels better on the road.

[Hunter]

I'd like to see a scaled-down version of the typhoon engine used in a small, light, RWD sports car but I doubt you will (or then, I might be talking out of my **** and its a bad idea).

[StookEB]

people need to relax, ours are based on family cars. The falcons are cheap and can be made into something special if wanted.

[smoo]

Nothing wrong with the old 305s. Built for economy and durability. Compare that to the likes of Japan and Europe from the same era (hmmm ohv 4 cyl Corollas and Peugeots : ). Sure, the Euros probably make the best engines out there, but their dogs will easily out number their greats.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by sprjenkins

Although there are a lot worse engines about i.e. Dodge Viper V10, that is 8.3 litres and puts out a, wait for it, mind blowing 400hp. Although the Dodge has 630nm of torque to the TVR's 420nm, I've had a brilliant idea, why dont Dodge put two TVR engines together next time to make an 8 litre engine.

I dont know where you get your figures from but the 2008 Viper has 600hp/450kw and 760Nm.
The original Viper back in 1992 has 400hp.

[dannyxm]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhUecQLiIA8
this is what happened when Ford took on the world
(1st minute or so anyway)

The Falcon is a family car, simple
try getting the kids to school in a TVR Sagaris

[XR Martin]

American engines may not be high strung from the factory, but they have a massive aftermarket and adding HP costs next to nothing on just about any popular car. Euro cars are all high strung from the factory and nothing can be done aftermarket wise without spending massive dollars.

Sure the M5s engine makes similar power to the LS7 in the Z06. But add an exhaust and tune to the Z07 and it picks up 75hp, add a cam and they are well over 600hp and running 10sec quarters.
In comparison for the same amount of money spent on an M5 would only buy you an exhaust and yield you 20hp if your lucky.

[Wally]

Peak power figures are not a good indicator of performance. Not everyone wants to drive around at high revs.

[GreenMachine]

Originally Posted by Wally

Peak power figures are not a good indicator of performance. Not everyone wants to drive around at high revs.

I do! I want a 10,000rpm, 300kw 6cyl family car. I do I do I do I do I do I do!

Shame on you, Ford! And to think Vic Bray is getting however many thousand horsepower out of a Hemi V8! To think that the Fabre cortina runs 200 mile down the 1/4 on a small block! Where's the GTP's in the VPW top 10, huh?

Shame, Shame, Shame!

[GreenMachine]

Originally Posted by sprjenkins

The only exception I can think of is the Holden 5 litre with the black head as found on the torana, which for its day was very powerful, am I wrong, can anyone think of another one?

Crikey! What was that noise?

I don't know, but I see a tear in the time-space continuum at the top of the screen...

Seal it, Jethro! We're haemorraging credibility by the second!

[[Tonko]]

Originally Posted by GreenMachine

Crikey! What was that noise?

I don't know, but I see a tear in the time-space continuum at the top of the screen...

Seal it, Jethro! We're haemorraging credibility by the second!

AH HAHAHAHAHAHA funniest thing i've heard all day...