Another speeding fine thread

FordACE · 05-08-2006, 03:50 PM

Hi guys,

any advice would be welcome. My brother just called me up saying he was fined for doing 84kms in a 60 zone. He was mighty unimpressed and said he was sitting at the speed limit. The police officer was on a bike at the side of the road. My brother reckons he was coming from around a corner and there were also other cars in front. My brother told the cop that he was not speeding, and they went on to say "so why were other cars passing you"? What the hell? doesn't that imply my brother was going slower then other cars? Anyway, he's not keen on paying for $250 if he wasn't speeding. What to do really? How can you convince a court you wern't speeding?

Paul

Falcon_Phill · 05-08-2006, 03:55 PM

You cant, unless you can. I hope that helped.

David See · 05-08-2006, 04:09 PM

He might be able to fight it and get his money back, but even if he does, he won't get his points back.

I don't have authority issues, but I do have issues with the fact that we have to cop on the chin something that we have no chance of defending.

How the freakin hell can any of us prove a cop was wrong?

T_Terror · 05-08-2006, 05:29 PM

Well it depends really.

There will have to be money well spent on a good lawyer if he wants to win.

No idea why the cop pulled him over if other cars were overtaking him.

That statement right there would really help in court. The question is whether the officer will lie about it or not.

xe351 · 05-08-2006, 06:30 PM

its all conspiracy's i tell you

VSSII · 05-08-2006, 06:45 PM

I didn't do it!! He'll get his point back if he is found not guilty. The RTA chose to enforce this in NSW because as everyone who reads the papers and watches ACA knows, our Magistrates just have no idea. The RTA did something about it.
Do bikes even have RADAR in QLD??? If it was a LIDAR gun those those things are idiot proof. Just point and shoot. It's impossible to get a false reading unfortunately!

mr scotto · 05-08-2006, 08:23 PM

o yes,police bikes do have radars in there panniers.unless there was a passenger in the car or you could get a statement of one of the drivers that past him i recon your brothers got no chance of beating the fine.

protd · 05-08-2006, 08:41 PM

i know in qld motorcycle cops record there convisations while booking you, a solicitor could ask for that tape to be produced and if that comment by your brother about not speeding and then the cops reply about him being passed by other cars is true there will be a recording on the tape, and well your brothers home free..

Dimi_Ghia · 06-08-2006, 09:36 AM

I was told by an ex Federal Cop that the best things to have with you in a car is a camera and a voice recorder (most new mobiles have either one or both). He said that when you get pulled over just start recording the conversation as you never know when you might need to defend yourself.

FordACE · 06-08-2006, 10:09 AM

Thanks for all the info guys. It just seems way too hard doesn't it? Are these guns able to store more then one speeding motorist at a time? Ie, do they have a memory?

GCFordChic · 06-08-2006, 11:09 AM

Interesting that they could get him if he was coming around the corner towards a stationary cop on the side of the road with other cars infront of your brother. How were they able to single him out and how were they able to get an accurate reading of his speed if there wasnt much time to 'follow' him with the radar to record it? (does that make sense when anyone else reads that?!?!) It is going to be hard to prove, because it seems as if he is guilty until proven innocent, which is much harder to argue.

I'll just look up a few things and hopefully be able to post something a little helpful...

FordACE · 06-08-2006, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GCFordChic

Interesting that they could get him if he was coming around the corner towards a stationary cop on the side of the road with other cars infront of your brother. How were they able to single him out and how were they able to get an accurate reading of his speed if there wasnt much time to 'follow' him with the radar to record it? (does that make sense when anyone else reads that?!?!) It is going to be hard to prove, because it seems as if he is guilty until proven innocent, which is much harder to argue.

I'll just look up a few things and hopefully be able to post something a little helpful...

Okay, well any advice would be good I guess.Thanks

Redrum · 06-08-2006, 02:35 PM

Tell your brother to gather evidence, go to court and have his day with a magistrate.

David See · 06-08-2006, 11:11 AM

I have an associate that beat a fine but could not get his points back. He was told there is no power above the RTA when it comes to things like this. They just don't care and the cost for him to fight the RTA would have been enourmous.

The RTA will NOT give his/her points back.

FordACE · 06-08-2006, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David See

I have an associate that beat a fine but could not get his points back. He was told there is no power above the RTA when it comes to things like this. They just don't care and the cost for him to fight the RTA would have been enourmous.

The RTA will NOT give his/her points back.

It's more the money that's the problem. Plenty of points to spare, since he is 28 and never been fined before. However, the money, and the fact that he wasn't speeding is a joke.

XA-Coupe · 06-08-2006, 02:41 PM

Get him to go see a solitcitor, the internet isn't the place to get advice about this sort of stuff.

85zl · 06-08-2006, 08:08 PM

Please note that this advice is from a lot of NSW speeding fine experience, and yes I do win.

LIDAR stands for Laser Indicated Direction And Range.

Lidar is a laser based "range finder" direction is not shown, range is. So technically they don't do what they are called.

Lidars are generally Idiot proof, however there is an Australian Standard (yes you can buy this from Standards Australia, there are two parts) that ALL Australian police are signatories to IE will abide by. This will give you some clues how to get around them.

I personally have a very big DOUBT as to the officers accuracy with one of these, basically they have to 'hit' the number plate at 100-600m at speed, yes the cops do have shooting practice but not at MOVING targets at speed.

If you take it to court look at/do the following;
attack the man not the machine.
get a map of the area, not the street directory, go to the dept of lands and get an Orthophoto map, these are massive about 1200mm x 1000mm and I think about $50. Its an aerial photo with contours overlaid on it. It seems to give you some points with the magistrate.

Do your research you cannot have enough

Take lots of pics, an SL/R with interchangeable lenses is the best, you can alter the 'depth' in the pics.

With all of these you can then attack the man.
Speed by definition is distance/time=km/h
60km/h = 16.66667 m/second
84km/h = 23.33333 m/sec

Ask the copper to estimate 20m or any other distance you like, be aware the longer the distance the greater the inaccuracy but not out of the court room. Take a big tape measure.

Ask the copper to estimate time, about 20 seconds does the trick, while outside influences are distracting him, like in the real world.
Any error starts to open up your defense.

The copper is to assess the validity of the lidar reading, before pulling you over, in case of error. Therefore you have proved the operator cannot tell distance and time which in turn shows the copper cannot asses speed.

Use the map;
ask the copper where he first saw you, there is an observation period of three (3) seconds
ask the copper where he started and stopped 'painting' you
again his indicated points on the map should show something very different to his reports

Me clocked speed 120km/h+ in court indicated speed of 24km/h in the other direction.
that copper was transfered and demoted. His partner, yes there was two of them, gave a conflicting view, the Judge stated in court, he had grave doubts about the evidence given.

Was I doing 120km/h, well thats is not going to be said here.

I hope that this is of help.

It is also possible to get off parking, no left turn, red lights etc. all with a bit of research.

Belle_Hemmi · 11-08-2006, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 85zl

Please note that this advice is from a lot of NSW speeding fine experience, and yes I do win.

LIDAR stands for Laser Indicated Direction And Range.

Lidar is a laser based "range finder" direction is not shown, range is. So technically they don't do what they are called.

Lidars are generally Idiot proof, however there is an Australian Standard (yes you can buy this from Standards Australia, there are two parts) that ALL Australian police are signatories to IE will abide by. This will give you some clues how to get around them.

I personally have a very big DOUBT as to the officers accuracy with one of these, basically they have to 'hit' the number plate at 100-600m at speed, yes the cops do have shooting practice but not at MOVING targets at speed.

If you take it to court look at/do the following;
attack the man not the machine.
get a map of the area, not the street directory, go to the dept of lands and get an Orthophoto map, these are massive about 1200mm x 1000mm and I think about $50. Its an aerial photo with contours overlaid on it. It seems to give you some points with the magistrate.

Do your research you cannot have enough

Take lots of pics, an SL/R with interchangeable lenses is the best, you can alter the 'depth' in the pics.

With all of these you can then attack the man.
Speed by definition is distance/time=km/h
60km/h = 16.66667 m/second
84km/h = 23.33333 m/sec

Ask the copper to estimate 20m or any other distance you like, be aware the longer the distance the greater the inaccuracy but not out of the court room. Take a big tape measure.

Ask the copper to estimate time, about 20 seconds does the trick, while outside influences are distracting him, like in the real world.
Any error starts to open up your defense.

The copper is to assess the validity of the lidar reading, before pulling you over, in case of error. Therefore you have proved the operator cannot tell distance and time which in turn shows the copper cannot asses speed.

Use the map;
ask the copper where he first saw you, there is an observation period of three (3) seconds
ask the copper where he started and stopped 'painting' you
again his indicated points on the map should show something very different to his reports

Me clocked speed 120km/h+ in court indicated speed of 24km/h in the other direction.
that copper was transfered and demoted. His partner, yes there was two of them, gave a conflicting view, the Judge stated in court, he had grave doubts about the evidence given.

Was I doing 120km/h, well thats is not going to be said here.

I hope that this is of help.

It is also possible to get off parking, no left turn, red lights etc. all with a bit of research.

I went through a similar inncedent and paid $3500.00 on a good lawyer and never saw the court room due to him knowing the judge very well. Its not what you its who you know and a little reseach will go along way.

GCFordChic · 11-08-2006, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belle_Hemmi

I went through a similar inncedent and paid $3500.00 on a good lawyer and never saw the court room due to him knowing the judge very well. Its not what you its who you know and a little reseach will go along way.

Hopefully i interpreted this the wrong way because i would hate to think you classify a 'good lawyer' as one who was corrupt and able to convince a judge out of court, on the basis of 'knowing the judge very well' to find you not guilty, when you obviously saw the posted speed signs in coming up to the toll (because you are able to recall them now) but you chose to ignore them and continue doing 101 in a 60 zone... I understand you wouldnt want to lose your licence, but this is definately a case of 'well you knew the law, you continued on to break it anyway, you should suffer the consequences...'

Its great for you that you 'beat the system' and i dont want you to think im being a b*tch or in any way getting all high and mighty, but hopefully you will tell me that it was just you that didnt have to appear in court for some reason, and there was a fair legal process... Otherwise once again my faith in justice and my chosen profession is left a little dented...

Jennifer

David See · 06-08-2006, 08:39 PM

Very interesting and thank you so much for the input. Us "plebs" are rarely "taught" how to defend ourselves properly as we just assume there are never any tools to help us: The cops must always be "right", because, let's face it, they're "cops".

I would request a couple of things:

(1) Would you please elaborate on the details of using the map

(2) I would like to know how to get off a fine (in my case an illegal right hand turn - your closing line pricked my ears up) if you have already admitted you did it to the cop who stopped you and sent away the payment for processing. Payment means you have accepted the guilt I guess?

Thanks again for your input and taking the time to add some amazing value to this thread.

85zl · 17-08-2006, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David See

Very interesting and thank you so much for the input. Us "plebs" are rarely "taught" how to defend ourselves properly as we just assume there are never any tools to help us: The cops must always be "right", because, let's face it, they're "cops".

I would request a couple of things:

(1) Would you please elaborate on the details of using the map

(2) I would like to know how to get off a fine (in my case an illegal right hand turn - your closing line pricked my ears up) if you have already admitted you did it to the cop who stopped you and sent away the payment for processing. Payment means you have accepted the guilt I guess?

Thanks again for your input and taking the time to add some amazing value to this thread.

As for 'plebs', please don't think I'm some kind of toffee nosed ****er, I work for myself driving a truck. Just lots of experience.

(1) Use the map by getting the copper to indicate on the map where he first saw you, first started 'painting' you, stopped 'painting' you and the time intervals. Using your map with a different scale,( the coppers use a photocopy out of the street directory ), so if they are 'schooled' on their map, it throws them.

(2) sorry but if you have admitted that you did it/ payed the fine your stuffed.

All states have a 'statute of limitations' ,in NSW 12 months, if the summons is not issued before that date, then the fine is 'stale'.

I did see a comment about taking fines to court. DO IT.

Why? because if the government decides it is all to hard they will give up.

David See · 06-08-2006, 08:41 PM

In addition, what about your points...do you get them back as well?

I heard it is impossible to get them back.

85zl · 17-08-2006, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David See

In addition, what about your points...do you get them back as well?

I heard it is impossible to get them back.

If you didn't get found guilty then your points aren't lost. You only loose them when you are found guilty, or pay the fine.

David See · 06-08-2006, 08:43 PM

FordACE, with respect, I think it is ALL about the points - because (even though the loss of money is not good) we have limited points and the ones you lose stay with you for three years.

GT-E · 06-08-2006, 08:44 PM

85zl has some very good info.
For anyone that thinks LIDAR (Laser) is idiot proof, there is heaps of evidence about operator errors.
If the cop was not using a tripod or mono pod, you have a VERY good chance of getting off, so long as you do some research.
Panning errors can make a +/- 15% difference in the recorded speed.

David See · 06-08-2006, 08:44 PM

PS - the term "Lidar" makes me laugh, too. So relevant.

David See · 06-08-2006, 09:06 PM

Here is an extract from "Highway Robbery" that relates to the points not being reinstated and the fact that the RTA will fight tooth and nail to prevent you from getting them back:

"On A Current Affair on 17 June 2005, it was shown that even if I had committed to spending a budget of $50,000 (required to ensure a win), for taking the matter through the court system, that I would not receive my points back, the very reason for going to court and spending the money. Also, the judge can make a decision as to how much of the $50,000 I receive back.

In addition it is the word of a police officer who has an incentive to lie, there are onus operator offences where rather than the government having to prove guilt, you are deemed guilty and have to prove innocence when at times this is just not possible. There are cases where people who have proved they were out of the country at the time, cannot prove their innocence. Others are forced to prove that they can't see through solid objects to see hidden and concealed speed limit signs. Others prove their case only to be found guilty anyway due to rules of evidence or a minor lack of knowledge of the legal system.

Furthermore, there are difficulties in obtaining documentation and the admissibility of evidence. NSW Police commonly withhold documentation. I submitted a request for "all manual relating to the radar used" and received one, only after much delay and after reviews by two higher authorities. At least 4 manuals were not handed over. One because, even though it appeared in Hansard and I had a fax from the State Library confirming its existence and both The Australian Law Society and Australian Bar Association had a copy, I was told it did not exist.

In the case of Peter Conridge, he requested the manuals relating to a Lidar. He received an Occupational Health and Safety manual. In his next request, he received a revised copy of the Lidar manual that did not have the precautions and warning section. It was not until a third attempt that he was able to obtain the manual. And it proved that the police had broken their own guidelines, ie. guidelines that ensure the reliability of the instrument's reading.

Even in rare instances when innocent motorists do win their cases, the RTA pursues them to the Supreme Court. The Daily Telegraph 12 August 2005 reported how even though Peter Nicholls had won his case against a faulty Hunter Valley speed camera, he had been summonsed to appear in the Supreme Court. Furthermore, the newspaper states "The RTA is spending thousands of dollars fighting other borderline speeding fines knowing that motorists will just give up the fight in the face of mounting costs and time."

So, even if you spend THOUSANDS fighting the fine and WIN, you WILL NOT get your points back. Even if proven innocent.

David See · 06-08-2006, 09:09 PM

Sorry, for some reason the post went in twice.

Jet-Star · 06-08-2006, 09:56 PM

What a crock, just another cop on a power trip. Oh and have any of you's used a radar gun before? I have and its not that hard to keep it on a car if they are coming/going straight towards/away from you but its a real pain to try keep it on a moving target side on as the camera's don't have enough weight and are the wrong shape for swinging it smoothly like that...I would probably have a bit of advantage over your average cop using one of these too as I shoot skeet every weekend & ducks in season..I seriously doubt alot of these officiers ability with these devices..Its not easy.

My advice to your bro is do what's cheepest.

FordACE · 06-08-2006, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse06

My advice to your bro is do what's cheepest.

It appears that is the way it will have to be. I mean, short of using more money, then I think it's pointless fighting this. $250 for not breaking the law is a joke. It's not like he doesn't have the money to pay it, but that is besides the point. I'm a poor uni student, if it was me that copped a fine I'd be spewing. Where would i pull $250 from, certainly won't be from my wallet. Anyway, until something is done about some proof on these guns, ie, maybe a picture along with the speed? then I think we are powerless to prove much.