Camperdown rail smash

[Charliewool]

Did anyone see the footage on the news last night about this (Adelaide-Melbourne line)... What a mess!

[The Dok]

Indeed I did, I'm familiar with that particular area (& crossing) having spent many days in Lismore when I was younger (late grandfather worked the weighbridge) a terrible tradgedy, & you are right charliewool, "what a mess". LINK HERE

[Pedro]

It got about 5 seconds on TV news yesterday. I searched it on 9MSN and the train hit a B-double at a crossing killing the truck driver.

Reports the truckie was half asleep. It was the truck that ran into the second locomotive and it derailed that and a few container carraiges.

[The Dok]

Originally Posted by BlackLS

Reports the truckie was half asleep. It was the truck that ran into the second locomotive and it derailed that and a few container carraiges.

FOG was said to be the cause, this area is certainly prone to it, visibility was said to be @1-2 metres, combine that with both vehicles travelling @100ks + no warning bells or lights (as reported) & the result is this, could have been a lot worse though as it's also a passenger line! :

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by The Dok

FOG was said to be the cause, this area is certainly prone to it, visibility was said to be @1-2 metres, combine that with both vehicles travelling @100ks + no warning bells or lights (as reported) & the result is this, could have been a lot worse though as it's also a passenger line! :

If the truck was anywhere near 100km/h in those conditions, and had that crash not happened, the driver if caught by HWP should have faced serious driving charges.

100km/h in heavy fog does not surprise me one bit with some people, particularly the 'speed limit conditioned' variety.

(I am NOT saying that was the speed in this case).

When I visited the Peoples Republic of Victoria a few years ago on way to a coronial crossover inquest, I had fog down to 10 - 50 metres max on the Hume very early one morning, here, a couple of trucks I had passed 15 - 20 minutes earlier at 130km/h eventually caught up with me, and passed staying at 100km/h. ( A smart investigator can now easily tell how far ahead I was before the fogbank).

My car at the time a Toledo with rear fog on.

I made a point to them on UHF of their speed, the visibility and of their risk, the reply (expected) by one of them was that;- 'fog's not thick till I can't see the whitelines below me'.

lane separation lines are spaced 4 metres between each.

Some of you will remember the Trawalla bus and truck intersection crash a year ago in similar heavy fog conditions.

Intersections and railway crossings combined with heavy fog, particularly in daylight are deadly.

I *know* of one very easy AND CHEAP way of improving the red signal given at crossings.

[Full Noise]

This level crossing is only a few hundred metres form the Hamilton Highway intersection. I’ll be polite here by saying that it would be highly unlikely that the B-double would have reached 100 kph in that distance. I wouldn’t believe every word the Herald Sun tells you.

Originally Posted by Keepleft

If the truck was anywhere near 100km/h in those conditions, and had that crash not happened, the driver if caught by HWP should have faced serious driving charges.

100km/h in heavy fog does not surprise me one bit with some people, particularly the 'speed limit conditioned' variety.

(I am NOT saying that was the speed in this case).

The last time I checked, we didn’t have a separate speed limit in this country for foggy conditions. So what would the HWP officer do, tell him to slow down and then speed off in his patrol car at 130 kph?

Keepleft, you seem to be a great source of information, however, are you familiar with this area?

[Keepleft]

Full Noise wrote: - This level crossing is only a few hundred metres form the Hamilton Highway intersection. I’ll be polite here by saying that it would be highly unlikely that the B-double would have reached 100 kph in that distance. I wouldn’t believe every word the Herald Sun tells you.

* Don't read the Herald Sun and never take as actual fact anything written in newspapers. I appreciate your statement however, that it would be unlikely that the driver was at or near 100km/h, even in clear conditions at that locale.

That possibility only further shows just how dangerous heavy fog conditions can be for all traffic, and that by my experience is nothing new. I could easily find out determined detail to date, but will not in this instance.


The last time I checked, we didn’t have a separate speed limit in this country for foggy conditions. So what would the HWP officer do, tell him to slow down and then speed off in his patrol car at 130 kph?

In effect yes, but the officer would not then do 130km/h in such prevailing conditions.

Remember you are legally required to always drive at a safe speed that would enable you to come to a safe, full-stop without skidding or losing control. On that basis, police can action drivers for 'speed dangerous', 'negligent driving' or any other number of offences.

Germany and indeed many EU states automatically apply a 50km/h maximum in fog condtions. On the F6 we often say 70km/h and that is nuts, and again we ask folk to drop to 90km/h on the Jolls part in similar conditions, even nuttier.

What applies at law by way of punitive action is state dependent.

Often in such conditions to have a driver slow down, police only need momentarily flash their headlights or activate the flashers.


Keepleft, you seem to be a great source of information, however, are you familiar with this area?

I am familiar with most rural zones here in NSW and some VIC locations. I write hazardous weather tutorials for road user handbooks throughout AUS, NZ, U.S etc, amongst other evil activities.


FN - Whilst I state above at post 17 that primary fault lies with the driver (right or wrong - or in part), 'the state' CAN be found as a contributor in negligence. Here, the spots 'history' can be called into question - where people in the past have requested remedial action. Surviving members of family and friends can take legal action, perhaps on the basis of nervous shock, but should, naturally, seek legal advice.

That course of action could be worthwhile, in the end, it could mean engineered changes at the site. It is a sad fact of life in Australia that remedial actions are often carried out after death.

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by BlackLS

Reports the truckie was half asleep. It was the truck that ran into the second locomotive and it derailed that and a few container carraiges.

So where did you hear this, one of your Sydney shock jocks? Like The Doc said, the cause was extremely heavy fog. Why don’t you research the facts before you post garbage next time?

[megsy]

Wheres the truck?? thats one hell of a mess. it takes quite a while to pull up a B dub' with 50 ton of weight behind it let alone a train of that size, and going on the conditions neither were at fault

my condolences go out to all involved in this tragedy

[EDManual]

as if the truck was doing 100 in extreme fog! make that 50.

[The Dok]

Originally Posted by EDManual

as if the truck was doing 100 in extreme fog! make that 50.

If you were familiar with the area, you would know that fog can be very patchy hence difficult to see in places, it's quite possible the train driver was immersed in fog, & the truck had good visibility, but if the fog was within that treeline (pictured), they would not have seen each other at all!!

Originally Posted by megsy

Wheres the truck?? thats one hell of a mess. it takes quite a while to pull up a B dub' with 50 ton of weight behind it let alone a train of that size, and going on the conditions neither were at fault

my condolences go out to all involved in this tragedy

The truck is "buried" under the mess. There was NO attempt to pull up by the truck, because he just didn't see it coming. Note the trees in the top of the pic, the train would have almost appeared from nowhere.

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by The Dok

If you were familiar with the area, you would know that fog can be very patchy hence difficult to see in places, it's quite possible the train driver was immersed in fog, & the truck had good visibility, but if the fog was within that treeline (pictured), they would not have seen each other at all!!

I had to deliver a load to Portland the night before, Wednesday, and the fog started around Inverleigh on the Hamilton highway. I stopped in the main street of Lismore for around 30 minutes, around 9:00 pm. Closer to Mortlake the fog was getting heavier, visibility was down to approximately 25 metres, then in small patches it would disappear. The heaviest patch at this stage was between Ballengreich and Purnim on the Hopkins highway. Once through Killarney the fog was quite light. On the way home the fog was extreme. Going through the main street of Mortlake, at around 3:00 am visibility would have been no more than 10 metres or around 30 feet in the old money.

Heading east through the 80 zone in Derrinallum I noticed a small red glow to my right and instantly jumped on the brakes as I knew that there was a level crossing there. A freight train had just gone through. I thought to myself how close this could be for people not familiar with the area. This level crossing would only be six or seven kilometres from where the accident occurred. I have the utmost respect for trains and level crossings out here, basically the trains are big, they go fast and more importantly, there’s plenty of them. Heading east through Lismore’s main street there’s a radar set up to some warning lights to warn drivers of a sharp left-hander. I found it odd that this wasn’t working and wondered if the fog had anything to do with it. Apparently the accident happened around 7:00 am and as The Doc and eb2fairmont would be able to confirm, there’s nothing more dangerous than daytime fog.

At 7:00 am, the train and truck would have been almost invisible to each other.

Sorry about the long post.

Danny

[eb2fairmont]

Exactly. I know this crossing well, and let me tell you the Fog would have made it impossible for the truckie to realise what was going on.

I remembers stand next to the siding as a train came by at 100, bloody hell did the tracks move when the bogies went over it

[TheSneakiness]

So there were two trains involved with this crash?

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by AUII_SE_Ute

So there were two trains involved with this crash?

No, only one train with two locomotives.

Cheers, Danny

[alesia]

It was one Freight train and the one truck.
and the truck is under that mess .

[XRchic]

I feel bad for the poor bloke driving the truck, and also for the train driver/s who would feel terrible too.

I reckon truck drivers should be paid danger money! Seems so dangerous to drive trucks out there, all hours of the day and night and under such bad conditions some of the time. And truckies seem to get blamed for a lot of things.

Would it make a difference if there were crossing lights and boom gates as there are closer to city areas? Or would the fog just block it all out.

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by XRchic

Would it make a difference if there were crossing lights and boom gates as there are closer to city areas? Or would the fog just block it all out.

The red light signal you see issued on 'some' rail crossings, in car terms, is about on par as almost having the brightness level of a vehicles brake-light.

For rural zones, this level is insufficient, the cheap answer is to give them near rear fog light levels of photometric brightness, this will easily add an additional six or so seconds warning.

The same photometric outcome should have applied to bus zig-zag amber warning lights. We got second class design specification instead, so created by state employees ignorant of other realities and outcomes.

I doubt this simple lesson will be comprehended by the Victorian 'experts'. I will take steps to ensure they apply in NSW next year, and they *will*. Implementation however on the ground will take 2 - 5 years.

The primary onus here in this example will fall to the road driver.

[Melz]

Originally Posted by Keepleft

The primary onus here in this example will fall to the road driver.

Yes well its always nice for someone to place the blame.... unless you were there or are on the investigation team i don't find how you have the right of saying this!!

I have 7 mates who all drive trucks for a living, its hard enough to get up and do the km's and the hours they do, without someone always willing to blame the truckie first. From what i heard the conditions are the major contributing factor to this terrible incident. And the fact that there was a lack of lighting at the intersection too.

Last easter i lost a dear friend of mine when her car was hit by a train, on another rail crossing that didn't have signals and in poor visibility too! Do you think there is a pattern developing???

I understand that a set of boom gates and lights may not always help... but i strongly believe it will make a difference.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by Melz

I understand that a set of boom gates and lights may not always help... but i strongly believe it will make a difference.

Out of this whole thread we finally come to the point in your last para Melz.

Its just extraordinary in this country that we have unprotected grade crossings on mainlines where train speed can be up to 100, even 160kph (XPT). Grade separation is the ideal but until that happens crossings should be protected with boomgates. And until that happens there should be a STOP sign on the road at the crossing. No excuses from bureaucrats and pollies. STOP signs can't cost that much. There will be grumbles like the 40 k zones outside schools but what's a human life worth.

[LUXO_8]

my boss and i were discussing this today....

what difference would it make if trains had at least 1 high intensity red light on each side of every carriage...???
i think it would be extremley helpfull in cases like this where crossings are unlit / unserviced


i also find it extremley negligent that in this day and age, we still have unlit / unserviced level crossings....... its rediculous...

[FirstFord]

Originally Posted by MADNC_8

i also find it extremley negligent that in this day and age, we still have unlit / unserviced level crossings....... its rediculous...

I'm with you on this one. EVERY crossing should have lights/bells etc. For f***s sake, we still have at grade crossings in suburban Melbourne - sydney got rid of its in the 1930's. Its disgusting that on the main line between two major cities, that this is not in existance. We live in the 21st Century for Gods sake, not the 18th. For a matter of a few thousand dollars? I still can't get over the fact that with the billion or so $ spent on the "fast train" upgrade here in Vic, that there are still crossings on the upgraded lines without boom gates and lights. To this little black duck, that borders on criminal (particularly when you consider that the initial budget for the fast train network was $80 million - WTF another $20m on something that's blown out to a billion).

I heard on the News tonight that they still haven't located the drivers body. That really is awful. I feel so sorry for the family. This was so preventable.