Anyone tried the Petrol with Ethanol fuel?

[johnydep]

I've only just noticed it around my area and wondering if it's worth trying in my Territory, I use Premium fuel 90% of the time. It is 95 Octane and about eight cents a litre cheaper than Premium.

I've heard some horror stories about it, like it rusts metal parts of the fuel system, causes condensation to pool into blobs of water in the tank which blocks fuel filters.
Is this true or just a scare campaign from the oil industry?

Is it any good?

[The MaDDeSTMaN]

I tried it in the XF, thought I had nothing much to lose seeing as I have a complete spare car I can pull bits from and replace anything that might break in the XF if it was a bad idea, but it didn't seem to do any harm, if anything the XF went a little better. It idled smoothly, had no less power then usual, didn't seem to have any troubles with it.

I'd put it in again, but I have the safety net of a complete replacement for anything that might not like the 10% ethanol.

[Paxton]

John, I tried it in my Territory, and found that it Pinged like hell. Worse than with 91 Octane Caltex Crap that I normally run in it. I would run it in an older Carbie car, or the Lexus, however I would not run it in my Territory again. My Car has a history of Pinging, however I know what it normally sounds like compared to ethanol. Try it, and tell me how you got on.

-Andrew

[dogbreath_48]

Is this the new mid-octane stuff at mobil (series 5000?)? I tried that and my car pinged it's nipples off, but then i can make it ping on premium :P

If i had of known it had ethanol in it (...which it may well not have) i would never have put it in! Don't think my original 1985 fuel system would like it...

-Stu

[The MaDDeSTMaN]

Originally Posted by dogbreath_48

Is this the new mid-octane stuff at mobil (series 5000?)?

That's a good question, which fuel from which petrol station are you talking about? I tried the 10% ethanol blend from united, which was cheaper then the normal unleaded and had a higher octane rating, so I decided it was worth a try

[johnydep]

i don't think Mobil use it.

There may be a few different names, one is E10

paxtonandrew, I think I may try it out, oncee shouldn't hurt.

The MaDDeSTMaN, I don't have a spare engine, but like I mentioned ^^ I may try it, depending on the poll.

[jabba]

It is better if used in the newer cars, as it does have a tendency to ruin spark plugs in older cars. the first time I used E10 I was less then impressed. But towards the end of the first tank My ute was behaving alot better. I have now filled up with it 7 times and My ute is running the best it has in a long time.

Regarding the issues about rust issues in the fuel line and water ponding in the tank. Ithink this would only affect those in the USA ase they are using up to 30% ethonol in there fuel.. And just for your info about ethonol being used as a fuel for our cars. my grand father spent some time living the the States and told me that in the Good old days you would pull into a Gas station and the pump operator would ask you " Ethel or Methel" meaning do you want ethonol or methonol.

In my opinion ethonol is a good thing and I do recomend it

[ltd]

Originally Posted by jabba

It is better if used in the newer cars, as it does have a tendency to ruin spark plugs in older cars. the first time I used E10 I was less then impressed. But towards the end of the first tank My ute was behaving alot better. I have now filled up with it 7 times and My ute is running the best it has in a long time.

Regarding the issues about rust issues in the fuel line and water ponding in the tank. Ithink this would only affect those in the USA ase they are using up to 30% ethonol in there fuel.. And just for your info about ethonol being used as a fuel for our cars. my grand father spent some time living the the States and told me that in the Good old days you would pull into a Gas station and the pump operator would ask you " Ethel or Methel" meaning do you want ethonol or methonol.

In my opinion ethonol is a good thing and I do recomend it

Too right. In the USA it is very hard to find fuel without at least 25% ethanol, and their octane rating of fuel is lower than ours too. The americans are using much higher blends of ethanol too, as they don't like grabbing their ankles on the white house lawn waiting for some OPEC delegate to speak. Ethanol is really clean, keeps motors clean, easy to produce, cheap and renewable.

In this country, as the sugar farmers have been dudded by the free trade agreement, I think it's only fair that we stop relying so much on crude oil and start running ethanol blends made from sugar cane. This will keep our farmers happy, the environmentalists, the greens, the motorists and basically everyone but the oil companies really happy.

Apparently there is only a little retuning to be done in order to run ethanol, (ie injector strainers need to be swapped to brass instead of polypropylene etc). I heard some guy on the radio the other day talking about how he filled his car up with pure ethanol, and it supposedly ran great. He also reckons that it cost him 4-5 cents per litre. The government could still charge its fuel taxes and all that and we'd still only be paying 50-60 cpl.

I honestly believe in the next few years we are going to look back on the days we used crude oil for fuel and say to ourselves; "how stupid were we to use that filthy crap". Go the ethanol.

[Des]

Before I bought the XR8, tried it in our Explorer and Corolla, and had pinging, idle problems and surgeing rpm's. I'd never put it anything I own again. This was before the big "crackdown" here in NSW, so they blends may be better now. I'm still worried though as all the countries that run higher blends of ethanol have their engine/ fuel systems designed and built from the word "go" to cope with the blends. About the info tallied about in Australia, almost all of it is by groups who have an interest in the results, so who do you believe? My father was employed by a fuel company for 33+ years, all of the company scientists always ran and recomended PULP, because if it's cleaner properties (in regards to engine internals). It's your car, it your choice, but remember some of the detergents and other agents added to petrol to help keep your engine clean may be "killed off" by the ethanol.
Later, Brad....

[OzJavelin]

At the rate we consume petrol, how many acres of sugarcane would we need to plant to run 10% ethanol across the board? A lot I'd think? It would make Qld a "resource capital" ...

[Gammaboy]

Originally Posted by ltd

I heard some guy on the radio the other day talking about how he filled his car up with pure ethanol, and it supposedly ran great. He also reckons that it cost him 4-5 cents per litre.

Ahahahahahha. yeah, right. An engine set up to run on alcohol consumes 3-4 times as much fuel to achieve Stoichiometric fuel air ratio, this translates into massive consumption....(one of the tricks on a carbied alcohol fueled car is to simply remove the main jets to get enough fuel flow) *And* its cost per litre is still quite high. I somehow think this guy was off with the pixies, having consumed a little too much ethanol himself.

Originally Posted by ltd

One of the things to remember in regards to the expose that the media did on service station owners recently was that it was toluene that was causing the biggest problems. This is because it is essentially a very potent caustic stripper, and it was responsible for stripping the lining out of fuel lines, rubber seals, coated metal etc. Also, it effectively lowered the octane rating of fuel, bringing about the pinging that everyone complained about.

Toluene isn't caustic, however it is a very agressive solvent. Its also used as an Octane *BOOSTER*. During the Turbo F1 era when the teams were allowed to blend their own fuels, they used alot of toluene to raise the octane and make the engines live with a 6:1 compression and 60-70Psi of boost. The bottles of "Octane booster" that you can buy are pretty close to straight toluene with a couple of other aditives...
Try getting your facts straight instead of watching Today tonight or listening to John Law's braindead callers.....

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by ltd

Too right. In the USA it is very hard to find fuel without at least 25% ethanol, and their octane rating of fuel is lower than ours too.

There's a reason its lower. They use a different measurement system. In Australia, we use RON (Research Octane). The formula Americans use for their octane goes as follows

RON + MON / 2. (MON = Motor Octane).

In reality, 91 RON is about the same as their 87 octane regular.. and 98 RON is about the same as their 93 octane premium. Plus they have 95 in some places...

[bindi]

I know that in NSW, as some ppl have stated here, that Today Tonight and all those godawful shows kicked up a big stink over both ethanol and toluene, and I can't remember what happened but now we have big stickers on some of our servos which say stuff about the petrol being petrol and nothing else... can't think of it off the top of my head though.

Does anyone remember this, and what was the outcome? I am curious. If I don't use at least Optimax in the Rolla she runs like the Monty Python Machine That Goes Ping.

[The MaDDeSTMaN]

Originally Posted by bindi

I know that in NSW, as some ppl have stated here, that Today Tonight and all those godawful shows kicked up a big stink over both ethanol and toluene, and I can't remember what happened but now we have big stickers on some of our servos which say stuff about the petrol being petrol and nothing else... can't think of it off the top of my head though.

Does anyone remember this, and what was the outcome? I am curious. If I don't use at least Optimax in the Rolla she runs like the Monty Python Machine That Goes Ping.

I remember, I was still working at Shell at the time and every second customer was asking about ethanol. After a week or so we went and added stickers to each bowser that head office had sent us that said there is no ethanol.

[johnydep]

Just found this article on it; http://www.unitedpetroleum.com.au/Co...3_company1.htm

BOOST 98 AND PLUS ULP – TWO NEW PETROL GRADES FROM UNITED PETROLEUM
Wednesday, 29 June 2005

“United Petroleum has today introduced two new grades of petrol, BOOST 98 and PLUS ULP, at its retail sites in Adelaide. United’s customers will for the first time be able to choose between normal unleaded petrol and ethanol enhanced petrol grades”, David Szymczak, the General Manager of United Petroleum said today.

“ BOOST 98 and PLUS ULP are high performance grades of petrol, both enhanced with 10 per cent ethanol. BOOST 98 has a 98 octane rating and PLUS ULP has a 94 octane rating as compared to 95 octane premium unleaded petrol and 91 octane for normal regular unleaded .

BOOST 98 will be sold at United at a substantial discount to the price of normal 98 premium unleaded. For the first time Adelaide motorists will be able to buy 98 grade petrol at heavily discounted prices.

PLUS ULP will also be discounted compared to regular unleaded petrol, so motorists will obtain a price advantage and a higher octane fuel.

Adelaide will be the first city where these new innovative fuels from United will be offered.

Ethanol is produced in Australia from renewable crops such as sugar cane, which generates new economic activity and employment on Australian farms and in regional communities.

United have entered into an alliance agreement with CSR for the supply of ethanol for BOOST 98 and PLUS ULP.

“CSR have been very helpful in the development of BOOST 98 and PLUS ULP”, Mr Szymczak stated.

“Ethanol has been used extensively as an additive in petrol in America for more than 20 years, and it is becoming increasingly popular in Europe and Asia for its performance and environmentally friendly qualities.

Ethanol is a natural octane enhancer, so the addition of 10 per cent ethanol to petrol boosts its octane level and its performance. Ethanol contains oxygen which helps the other components in petrol to burn more efficiently. It also assists cleaning of the car’s fuel system. Ethanol is widely used in high performance racing fuels.

Ethanol also assists in reducing greenhouse gas emissions, which are a major contributor to global warming. Petrol with a 10 per cent ethanol blend reduces carbon monoxide and total hydrocarbon emissions from a car’s engine, and it contains less toxins and carcinogens than regular unleaded petrol.” David Szymczak explains.

Both BOOST 98 and PLUS ULP fully comply with Australian Fuel Quality Standards, and most vehicles can run on petrol containing 10 per cent ethanol. The Australian Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries (FCAI) has determined that existing vehicle warranties can support petrol with an ethanol level up to 10 per cent.

Motorists can switch between Boost 98 and PLUS ULP and other grades of petrol.

As Lead Replacement Petrol is being phased out by local refineries, it will be replaced by BOOST 98 and PLUS ULP at United sites. However, cars manufactured pre-1986 using BOOST 98 or PLUS ULP may require a lead substitute additive.

BOOST 98 and PLUS ULP are available now at the United Adelaide Airport and United Croydon Park sites. Over the next week it will also be available at United Kurralta Park, United Salisbury, United Richmond, United Pooraka, and United Pennington. Construction of the new United Blair Athol site will be completed in late August, and will open offering these new products.

Mr Szymczak concluded by saying that:

“Ethanol blended petrols such as BOOST 98 and PLUS ULP are the way of the future, so motorists will save money while providing a BOOST to the environment, a BOOST to the economy and a BOOST to their car’s performance.”

I'm thinking about filling up tonight for a try, as I'll need petrol tomorrow any way.

[clampy]

aint seen anything like that in WAWA land yet..

[EFIwindsor]

Originally Posted by jmartion

aint seen anything like that in WAWA land yet..

Same goes for Sunny QLD Nothing like that here.

[jabba]

Originally Posted by nvy069

Same goes for Sunny QLD Nothing like that here.

Independent fuel supplies have E10 in QLD

[Pinkbits]

Have been using United "plus ulp" for a week now, in the work van (90 Econovan) carting around tools etc, seems to go and idle better and does not ping any more.

[Kryton]

ive havent seen it or heard of it yet.
cheaper petrol....ill believe that when i see it.

[brenx]

I tried it in the XB the 95ron one. Not an issue. It's an oxygenated fuel though. So keep that in mind. Meaning you'll use more fuel to make the same power as you did on unleaded. In the end you save nothing. It would have to be at least 10-20c cheaper to make it worth wild.

[ZC-Cruiser]

Originally Posted by brenx

I tried it in the XB the 95ron one. Not an issue. It's an oxygenated fuel though. So keep that in mind. Meaning you'll use more fuel to make the same power as you did on unleaded. In the end you save nothing. It would have to be at least 10-20c cheaper to make it worth wild.

This article would seem to contradict that:
http://seven.com.au/todaytonight/story/?id=24813

[ZC-Cruiser]

And this article has a lot of good info - including some info on the water issue

Ethanol-blended petrol is a great fuel, so what's the fuss?
By William Wells

The Australian press for the past few months has printed many articles about low-percentage blends of ethanol and petrol. The public has been left with the feeling that something is "wrong" with these fuels, and that the parties promoting ethanol in fuel are trying to foist something on an unsuspecting public that is somehow bad for them.

This article seeks to lay out the truth about ethanol, and as well tell the rest of the story: that it is fuels without ethanol that should give us cause for concern, because of the levels of toxic chemicals that they contain or emit during incomplete combustion.

What is ethanol?
Ethanol is an organic chemical, similar in properties to the hundreds of other components of petroleum-derived gasoline. Yet, there is a big difference: ethanol burns cleaner itself, and also it burns more completely the petrol it is blended into. This is due to the phenomenon of enleanment, possible because the ethanol is already partially oxidised.

Ethanol can be made from fossil fuels such as natural gas liquids or coal, but the source that is most valuable is natural raw materials like sugar cane or grains. This is because the raw material will be remade in exactly the same way during the following crop cycle. This is a result of the action of photosynthesis upon the carbon dioxide released during fermentation at the distillery or combustion in the automobile.

Ethanol and your car.
Engine performance and total emissions are both improved by the addition of ethanol to gasoline. The clean burning nature of ethanol allows you to capture more of the work from the fossil portion of the gasoline, which compensates largely for the lower energy content of ethanol itself. In a 10 per cent blend (E10), all other things being held the same, you might get a zero to 2.7 per cent loss in mileage (kilometres per litre).

Another performance benefit from ethanol is its high octane addition to fuel. Of all the commercially viable octane enhancers possible, nothing delivers more punch than ethanol. The populace still feels the ill effects of the tons of poisonous lead that were spewed into urban environments because of the poor decision to accept lead over ethanol as the octane additive of choice.

Comments have been made in the Australian press that ethanol octane benefits due to an increase in Research number is accomplished at the expense of the Motor number so that the benefit cancels. This is simply untrue. Octane is a measure of the resistance in an engine to damaging knock, which is premature detonation of the fuel before the spark plug fires at the optimal point in the cycle of crankshaft rotation. Research Octane Number is measured under normal driving conditions under light load on a level road. Motor Octane Number is best described as pulling a heavy trailer up a hill; that is, the engine is under considerable load. Like all high octane components added to gasoline, the Research number climbs higher with ethanol addition than the Motor Number, but certainly both values increase.

Other benefits due to ethanol in your car are technical in nature, but may be summarized as follows:

Cleans engine over time, especially harmful combustion chamber deposits.
Improved front end volatility for better cold start and improved operation (driveability and distillation curve effects).
Dissolves any fuel line and fuel tank water, which are sources of corrosion, and eliminates them out the exhaust.
The higher octane of the ethanol blend allows the new cars with higher compression ratio to run without changing refinery operations.
Exhaust versus evaporative emissions.

Adding ethanol to regular unleaded at 10 per cent is an easy way to make unleaded premium, and it extends supplies by 10per cent. Without any modification of the base gasoline, however, the vapour pressure of the fuel will increase slightly, leading to more evaporative, or fugitive, emissions. These are primarily vapours that escape the carbon canister on the automobile, or are forced into the air as the level in a fuel tank rises. They do not include fuel spills, because normally the entire volume of a gasoline spill will evaporate in any case.

The question is whether this greater evaporative mass gives rise to greater pollution potential than the large benefit of exhaust emissions reduction. It is my opinion as a fuel scientist that the nature of the chemical make-up of this new vapour space is less harmful that the unblended, but lower pressure, base gasoline. Ethanol itself, for example, which is now part of the vapour, has a lower ozone-forming potential than olefins and aromatics.

Ethanol and health.
After years of ethanol use in once-polluted major cities in the USA and Brazil, the air is demonstrably cleaner and within federal guidelines for a healthy lifestyle. Not only are toxic species reduced, such as carbon monoxide and aromatics, but also the potential to produce ground level ozone is lower because the elements necessary for its production have been greatly lessened. In particular, high octane benzene, known to cause leukaemia, can be nearly eliminated because ethanol can provide the octane it once did.

The benefit to citizens of urban airsheds is enormous. Cleaner air means healthier people, especially those that suffer from respiratory diseases. Mortality rates will improve, health care visits will decrease in number and severity, health care costs and insurance rates will benefit, and productivity will improve as absenteeism and performance is improved.

Experience
Ethanol has been blended in the US in significant levels since the early 1980s, and today blends of no more than 10per cent are warranted for use in every internal combustion engine sold, whether two stroke or four, land or water use, big engine or small. These are the same types of cars and marine engines sold in Australia, and there is no reason that ethanol blends at 10per cent or less will not work just fine. Additionally, in the US, there is a growing fleet of Fuel Flexible Vehicles (FFV) that runs on straight gasoline, straight ethanol, or anything in between. The number of stations dispensing the preferred fuel, E85, is growing. There are government incentives to car manufacturers for producing FFV.

Here at home, E10 has been trialled by BP successfully in the Brisbane market since April of 2002, with no negative incidents recorded. Over this same period, Q Fleet vehicles have also successfully run on E10. There has been intermittent blending in Queensland historically since 1927. Brazil, which also has abundant sugar resources, began blending during World War I. Today, all gasoline in Brazil contains 22per cent ethanol, and some fuel is straight ethanol. All cars in Brazil are specially designed for these levels of addition.

There are other countries besides the US, Brazil, and Australia that are incorporating ethanol into their motor fuels pool. In one form or another Sweden, France, Spain, India, Canada, Mexico and Thailand are actively using bio-ethanol at some substantial level.

Ethanol energy balance compared to gasoline.
Ethanol yields more energy net to the planet than it takes to produce it. Gasoline, or any fuel derived from fossil sources such as petroleum, cannot possibly do so. You are always at a deficit because you must consume some of the energy contained in the fuel to transport and process it, and you never get anything back. The carbon oxides from combustion add to the atmospheric inventory of other Greenhouse Gases.

With ethanol, the carbon dioxide produced either during fermentation or combustion will be remade into exactly the same amount of plant matter from which it was made. This photosynthetic cycle is what is meant by the renewable nature of ethanol, which in fact is classified as a solar fuel. Doing a complete energy balance, to include inputs at all levels of processing and giving credits where due, still makes for a positive balance using modern methods of farming and ethanol manufacture. This is an important part of what is meant by ethanol being sustainable.

Since carbon dioxide (CO2) is also heavily implicated in the atmospheric build-up of gases that are suspected agents of global climate change, it follows that, if the energy balance of ethanol is improved over fossil fuels, then burning it as a partial replacement for fossil fuels will help to abate these Greenhouse Gases. Further, there are two other subtle ways that ethanol helps in this area: (1) because unburned fuel is reduced in the tailpipe, more of it is being burned to useful work, and therefore additional fossil fuel will be saved; and (2) because of its high octane contribution, ethanol substitutes for aromatics, which give higher yields of CO2.

Another aspect of sustainability involves concerns about stress on the lands and tidal waters if ethanol use increases farming. There is little danger of this, as Australia can divert a portion of the agricultural commodities now shipped in export at increasingly low prices into ethanol manufacture, moving their value up the chain and improving prices for the remaining exports. Not one extra plot of land need be farmed to provide food on Australian tables and to produce fuel ethanol for our domestic needs.

Energy security.
Ethanol is a ready-to-use fuel that can be blended directly into gasoline. Australian refineries convert about 40per cent of crude runs to usable petrol. Therefore, one litre of ethanol produced in Australia substitutes for more than two litres of imported crude oil. This is not only helpful to the balance of payments but also provides us security of fuel supplies with content that is not dependent on foreign and uncontrolled sources. As a corollary, increasing numbers of jobs, in the rural areas where they are needed, will be created with widespread E10 usage.

Limit of ethanol in petrol.
Strong evidence exists that ethanol blends up to 10per cent are, in the words of the US Environmental Protection Agency, "substantially similar to gasoline." Every manufacturer of petrol-burning engines, for any transport application in the US, warrants the use of E10 as acceptable, and some go so far as to recommend it.

While there is no compelling evidence that blends up to 20per cent might cause harm to the current and future fleet of Australian automobiles, neither is there any evidence that harm will not be done, other than good fortune in the experiences so far.

Until such time as credible evidence proves otherwise, and the production of ethanol in Australia is so great that we can afford to provide some blends higher in percentage than E10, it is the opinion of this author that prudence requires that a limit of 10per cent be applied.

What is needed?
In order to grow a viable fuel ethanol industry, the federal government needs to establish a clear policy in support of alternative biofuels, and especially ethanol for petrol. The following actions are suggested for ethanol:
(1) set volume targets with a timetable,
(2) long term excise relief (or domestic producers credit) is needed to give lenders faith that debt will be repaid,
(3) provide a capital subsidy for new ethanol capacity to attract investment capital from potential owners,
(4) devise a mechanism to ensure market access, and
(5) legislate fuel standards that include renewable fuels such as ethanol.

These actions will level the playing field for all stakeholders in the fuel markets and give Australia a good chance or bringing to life a new and valuable industry.

[LTDHO]

I come to the conclusion that Ethanol fuel is only good for EFI.

I have been running my nonEFI unleaded suzuki on it. I find it has alot let power (didn't have alot to start with) and I am only getting 300 out of a tank instead of 350.

Maybe someone who has had their car on the dyno at Hallam performance and hasn't mod'd their car could do a back to back??

So I will be filling it back up with non ethanol fuel tonight.

[johnydep]

OK, I filled up with PLUS ULP @ 112.6
The BOOST 98 was 118.9
Unleaded @ 116.9

I was tempted to get the BOOST 98, but decided I'd try the PLUS 95.

So far I can't feel any difference, but I will keep a close watch on everything, including fuel usage.

[The MaDDeSTMaN]

Originally Posted by johnydep

OK, I filled up with PLUS ULP @ 112.6
The BOOST 98 was 118.9
Unleaded @ 116.9

I was tempted to get the BOOST 98, but decided I'd try the PLUS 95.

So far I can't feel any difference, but I will keep a close watch on everything, including fuel usage.

Yeah, that PLUS ULP is the one I tried. Tell us how it goes

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by johnydep

OK, I filled up with PLUS ULP @ 112.6
The BOOST 98 was 118.9
Unleaded @ 116.9

I was tempted to get the BOOST 98, but decided I'd try the PLUS 95.

So far I can't feel any difference, but I will keep a close watch on everything, including fuel usage.

OK, here are my findings;
After using PLUS 95, I then filled up with ULP, and yesterday I filled up with BOOST 98.
There seemed to be no power difference with the Plus, fuel usage may have increased ever so slightly, especially at idle (according to the Instantaneous trip meter), but so slight it is hard to be certain.
Boost 98 is a different matter, after switching from ULP the engine is more responsive, and I can see a definite improvement in fuel consumption, not much but it is noticeable.

I've always prefered to use BP & Caltex Premium, but at the prices have found it hard to substantiate for the benefit. The BOOST 98 may be my answer, I'll need one more tank to convince me.

Some more info; http://www.farmersfuel.com.au/

And this is not good for fuel prices; http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...772409154.html

The International Monetary Fund's chief added to the uncertainty, warning the high price of oil posed an increasing risk to global economic growth, which under current estimates will be above 4 per cent this year.

[MickyB]

I have just filled up with the Boost 98, so far my car has felt exactly the same after 50km, I'll let you guys know on the economy of the car when I fill up next.

[ltd]

One of the things to remember in regards to the expose that the media did on service station owners recently was that it was toluene that was causing the biggest problems. This is because it is essentially a very potent caustic stripper, and it was responsible for stripping the lining out of fuel lines, rubber seals, coated metal etc. Also, it effectively lowered the octane rating of fuel, bringing about the pinging that everyone complained about. Ethanol on the other hand is a great way to increase the octane rating, and it does not harm fuel systems.

Seriously, it is only a small adaption in manufacturing to make an engine run on pure ethanol, and it's also not that hard to adapt existing engines. For the sake of saving billions of dollars that would otherwise go to the saudi's; I really hope we grab this opportunity by the short and curlies and help our sugar, wheat, barley etc farmers out. Sure, we may need 66 litres where we currently use 60, but at 50-60cpl who really cares? I for one would love to hear the price of oil on the television and laugh my head off knowing that it won't effect me anymore.

Go the ethanol.

[mcflux]

Originally Posted by ltd

Seriously, it is only a small adaption in manufacturing to make an engine run on pure ethanol, and it's also not that hard to adapt existing engines. For the sake of saving billions of dollars that would otherwise go to the saudi's; I really hope we grab this opportunity by the short and curlies and help our sugar, wheat, barley etc farmers out. Sure, we may need 66 litres where we currently use 60, but at 50-60cpl who really cares? I for one would love to hear the price of oil on the television and laugh my head off knowing that it won't effect me anymore.

Go the ethanol.

The problem is that the arabs have a sh*tload of oil, and have a massive undercutting potential. Say an Aussie company sets up a massive Ethanol plant promising to sell Ethanol for under $1/litre, all the arabs need to do is cut back their prices (and the middle men will follow suit) until they match or better the Ethanol price, the Ethanol plant goes out of business, and the arabs jack up their prices again. As long as they've got the monopoly on good old fashioned crude oil, we're not going to see an alternative fuel successfully counter the oil market.

On the other hand, South Africa had a coal-to-oil system for decades, due to sanctions placed on them because of their Aparteid regeime. Because of these sanctions, converting coal to oil was the only way they could fuel their nation. Same with the nazis in WWII.

In Gippsland we had a coal-to-gas plant (the Lurgi plant) which supplied gas to Melbourne until the 70s, when the Bass Straight gasfields were opened up.

It'll always cost more to make oil than take oil.

-Dave-