Support your paramedics

geckoGT · 31-10-2014, 12:45 AM

http://www.sbs.com.au/thefeed/blog/2...under-pressure

This is the human side of it when paramedics ask for public support in regards to pay and conditions. I know for a fact that both NSW and Vic are having serious problems, QLD is in serious trouble.

I can't use my Facebook to put the word out as I would get the sack, please help out. Check in your state and see how your ambo's are going, help them with their health so they can look after yours.

MAGPIE · 31-10-2014, 11:23 AM

It's a tough gig, problem is the general public will never understand nor comprehend the half of what a Paramedic (and other service personnel) has to deal with.

I purposely avoid talking about aspects of my job with friends/family as you can see in their eyes that they just have no idea.

b0son · 31-10-2014, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

http://www.sbs.com.au/thefeed/blog/2...under-pressure

This is the human side of it when paramedics ask for public support in regards to pay and conditions.

What do they want? Reduced shift length? I assume paramedics get paid some sort of loading/overtime for the length of shift? Would they be willing to forego this extra money if the shifts were a more standard 8hr/etc length?

geckoGT · 03-11-2014, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0son

What do they want? Reduced shift length? I assume paramedics get paid some sort of loading/overtime for the length of shift? Would they be willing to forego this extra money if the shifts were a more standard 8hr/etc length?

In essence no, rostering that has shift overlap is the key here. There is overtime but the issue is the money is not worth it when you never know when you finish work.

We work 12 hour shifts which when you look at the shift length is a good system as it give more days off and more time to clear the head. Shorter shifts such as 8 hr do not allow that. The problem is we never know our finish time, a 12 hr shift often last 13 hrs, 14 hrs or even 15 hrs. You can't plan anything, you have no goal post to reach when you are tired. Then you have the issue that many ambulance services do not support trying to get crews relieved of shift until they reach the 2 hour overtime mark, by which time you are fatigued and then you have to come back in 10 hours time and do it all over again.

My question to you, would you want to go to work knowing that you have no choice you must do overtime at the end of your shift with such frequency that it happens more than you actually finish on time? It happens to us so regularly that we actually get excited if we finish on time. I can tell that if many industries tried that on their workforce there would be strike action.

TheSneakiness · 03-11-2014, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

My question to you, would you want to go to work knowing that you have no choice you must do overtime at the end of your shift with such frequency that it happens more than you actually finish on time? It happens to us so regularly that we actually get excited if we finish on time. I can tell that if many industries tried that on their workforce there would be strike action.

I get the ***** if I have to work 3 minutes extra over my finish time so imagine if I was forced to do several hours OT with no choice.

Is there no option for you to strike? I do realise there are people out there with life threatening issues that need the service however if they get a fatigued ambo after working 14 straight hours the risk is exceptionally high that mistakes can be made.

geckoGT · 03-11-2014, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rapid_Axe

I get the ***** if I have to work 3 minutes extra over my finish time so imagine if I was forced to do several hours OT with no choice.

Is there no option for you to strike? I do realise there are people out there with life threatening issues that need the service however if they get a fatigued ambo after working 14 straight hours the risk is exceptionally high that mistakes can be made.

Strike is the worst thing we can do. We are responsible for the lives and health of the public. If we strike we put peoples lives at risk and that is not what we do. The government know this, they know we won't do it and they use that against us. That is why our only hope of fixing this is public education and getting public support. The average public member thinks we get paid more than registered nurses and over $100k a year, spend lots of time at station waiting for callouts and get never-ending support from the service.

The truth is we get paid less than enrolled nurses, spend 12 hours on shift with no meal breaks, no rest pauses and if we have a problem with any of it we get "managed" out of the service.

TheSneakiness · 03-11-2014, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Strike is the worst thing we can do. We are responsible for the lives and health of the public. If we strike we put peoples lives at risk and that is not what we do. The government know this, they know we won't do it and they use that against us. That is why our only hope of fixing this is public education and getting public support. The average public member thinks we get paid more than registered nurses and over $100k a year, spend lots of time at station waiting for callouts and get never-ending support from the service.

The truth is we get paid less than enrolled nurses, spend 12 hours on shift with no meal breaks, no rest pauses and if we have a problem with any of it we get "managed" out of the service.

Thats bull****.

I have all the respect in the world for paramedics so its completely ****** that I hear this happening.

*thinks about running as a local MP*

b0son · 03-11-2014, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

My question to you, would you want to go to work knowing that you have no choice you must do overtime at the end of your shift with such frequency that it happens more than you actually finish on time? It happens to us so regularly that we actually get excited if we finish on time. I can tell that if many industries tried that on their workforce there would be strike action.

You forget that a huge slice of the workforce aren't employed on a shift-basis, but are salaried, and expected to put in whatever hours the job requires. I used to work 80hrs/week, couldn't accrue leave (was lucky to be able to use half of it), required to work weekends, discouraged from taking time off in lieu, etc.

Point is, plenty of workers in plenty of industries get the shaft.

geckoGT · 05-11-2014, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0son

You forget that a huge slice of the workforce aren't employed on a shift-basis, but are salaried, and expected to put in whatever hours the job requires. I used to work 80hrs/week, couldn't accrue leave (was lucky to be able to use half of it), required to work weekends, discouraged from taking time off in lieu, etc.

Point is, plenty of workers in plenty of industries get the shaft.

And what sort of salary did you do that for, give the whole picture? What industry was that in?

b0son · 05-11-2014, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

And what sort of salary did you do that for, give the whole picture? What industry was that in?

High $40's, mid-2000s. Scientific research.

What is the annual paramedic salary?

cram_it_frog · 31-10-2014, 01:45 PM

I did some thing similar when I was in my 20s I joined st johns ambulance in Perth and I used to go to the female under 19s basket ball matches and first aid office as a volunteer

it make you feel good and you have done some thing to help others

geckoGT · 03-11-2014, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cram_it_frog

I did some thing similar when I was in my 20s I joined st johns ambulance in Perth and I used to go to the female under 19s basket ball matches and first aid office as a volunteer

it make you feel good and you have done some thing to help others

That is true, it used to. Sometimes it still does and we still get that reward. The problem is that gets eroded by the frivolous callouts that we get. Just the other day I went to a person with a leg infection that caught a bus to see his GP the previous day and the GP told him to go to hospital. So he caught a bus back home and then the next day called an ambulance to take him to hospital because he pays tax and is entitled to it. No reward there, just frustration and it is a daily occurrence for ambulance crews. Jobs like that are often the ones that we do our 2 hours of compulsory overtime for, the ones that mean we don't see our kids for 3 days.

I guess my point here is we are not volunteers, we are professional paramedics with professional responsibilities which both the government and the public insist we have. The problem is the government use that "volunteer" and "good samaritan" nature that all paramedics have to limit our pay and place unreasonable work conditions on us. Ultimately the stress causes issues and paramedics have disproportionately high divorce rates, high incidence of depression, poor health, statistically a 10 year shorter life span and a suicide rate 20 times that of the general public.

**fordomatic** · 31-10-2014, 02:00 PM

From my experience no one will ever truly understand what a situation is like until they have experienced it themselves. Rocking up to a situation with people dead, kids and adults are visions that stick with me the most. I've done some crazy things and seen some crazy stuff in my short life and out of everything i've done it's the visions of dead innocent people that always come back to me.

No one understands, everyone thinks its a perfect world and there are not many people that actually care either. 90% of people will pass by this thread as they don't think it affects them directly, how wrong they are.

cram_it_frog · 31-10-2014, 02:49 PM

Fordomatic

I have moved to a remote mining town and the people here are amazing the life style will add years to my life because of less stress and pressure

.
No one understands, everyone thinks its a perfect world and there are not many people that actually care

That is the way many live in todays world they live is this little secure bubble and that makes them feel safe and secure that is the way many people live

nothing wrong that really it is a way of getting through the day

people do not want to know about death and such till it is often too late ie family member get cancer and has 3 months then it hits them in the face

Dalonian · 31-10-2014, 02:50 PM

In Victoria we do two 10 hour shifts (07:00 to 17:00) and then 2 14 hour night shifts (17:00 to 07:00). There aren't any extra penalty rates for nights/weekends/public holidays, rather you get what's called a rolled in rate which is meant to compensate that. However that leaves the base rate of pay fairly low in the grand scheme of things. And I am seriously thinking of taking a substantial pay cut just so I won't have to miss Christmas/nights etc so I can spend more time with friends and family. Being an ambo can be fairly lonely experience as you lose more and more friends, because you missed that BBQ/wedding etc.

I've just turned 27 and have spent almost 6 years in the industry and am now wondering where to go from here. I'm off the road at the moment temporarily because of a neck injury I sustained at work and am only now learning what a 'normal' 9-5 job is like, Mon-fri and sleeping in my own bed every night.

In short the above conditions coupled with the the stress of the job means almost every paramedic I know has some sort of mental health issue. The sad thing is its really up to us to look out for each other because there's no way the service or government will do anything any time soon to change the working conditions. But how 14 hour plus shifts are still acceptable in 2014 is beyond me.

geckoGT · 03-11-2014, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fordomatic

From my experience no one will ever truly understand what a situation is like until they have experienced it themselves. Rocking up to a situation with people dead, kids and adults are visions that stick with me the most. I've done some crazy things and seen some crazy stuff in my short life and out of everything i've done it's the visions of dead innocent people that always come back to me.

No one understands, everyone thinks its a perfect world and there are not many people that actually care either. 90% of people will pass by this thread as they don't think it affects them directly, how wrong they are.

So true.

Many think if they don't like it why don't they get out of it? Well paramedics are, they are either getting out of the job or many of the experienced paramedics are moving to rural areas to get some relief from the stress. When I first started you were not really considered an experienced paramedic until you had been in the job 10 years and not senior until you had 20 years up. Now, you are considered experienced after 2 years and senior after 5 years. At 10 years I am now being considered a bit of a dinosaur.

I feel sorry of the public, the paramedic treating your family is now more frequently a kid with 1-2 years out of Uni with no experience and some of them still have P plates. I know I would prefer someone with 10-20 years experience.

MITCHAY · 31-10-2014, 05:31 PM

I can't imagine how paramedics (and all emergency services for that matter) can cope with what they have to see and do for such long periods. I worked 12 hour shifts riding a desk (IT) and even that had pretty bad effects on me.

Maybe the exact reason they have to do such shifts is because they can't attract enough people for what they pay or don't want to employ more people. Out of all our public services these need to be properly resourced and have support for those workers too.

Itsme · 31-10-2014, 05:49 PM

Well boys I have worked in emergency situations years ago & as the old saying
" If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen"
Not being rude but it is true.
Some people are cut out for it while others are not.

**fordomatic** · 31-10-2014, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trublu

Well boys I have worked in emergency situations years ago & as the old saying
" If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen"
Not being rude but it is true.
Some people are cut out for it while others are not.

Dumbest post of the year

you have no idea, when you push people to the edge and give them no support what do you expect to happen? Paramedics are leaving the job in droves, the conditions are woeful and there is no support for any of them post career. You must be one tough old cookie buddy, i don't know a single paramedic that is not affected by what they have seen, and i don't know any that complain either. All they are asking for is support, and the support isn't there.

**buggerlugs** · 31-10-2014, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fordomatic

Dumbest post of the year

you have no idea, when you push people to the edge and give them no support what do you expect to happen? Paramedics are leaving the job in droves, the conditions are woeful and there is no support for any of them post career. You must be one tough old cookie buddy, i don't know a single paramedic that is not affected by what they have seen, and i don't know any that complain either. All they are asking for is support, and the support isn't there.

He has quite a few of those type of posts. Ambo's , like nurses, just brilliant. We'd be buggered without them.............

Itsme · 31-10-2014, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fordomatic

Dumbest post of the year

you have no idea, when you push people to the edge and give them no support what do you expect to happen? Paramedics are leaving the job in droves, the conditions are woeful and there is no support for any of them post career. You must be one tough old cookie buddy, i don't know a single paramedic that is not affected by what they have seen, and i don't know any that complain either. All they are asking for is support, and the support isn't there.

I've been involved in a job where I have to deal with terrible accidents so I don't need your comment to say I don't know what it is like, I had to give up a career as their was no support in my job.
Like I said if it is getting to you then move on otherwise pay the consequences.

Yeah you are right I am a hard bastard & I was affected but life goes on.

Dalonian · 31-10-2014, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trublu

Well boys I have worked in emergency situations years ago & as the old saying
" If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen"
Not being rude but it is true.
Some people are cut out for it while others are not.

You're not looking at all the issues. Looking at trauma, watching people die is not something everything can deal with, but when you combine that with an ever increasing workload, working nights EVERY week, regularly working public holidays and weekends and being paid peanuts means no one will be able to do it for the rest of their lives. Do you do two 14 hour shifts every week?

**GasoLane** · 31-10-2014, 08:48 PM

Just out of curiosity what are the hourly rates and conditions (holiday loading, sick leave etc)

Dalonian · 31-10-2014, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GasOLane

Just out of curiosity what are the hourly rates and conditions (holiday loading, sick leave etc)

In Victoria, the standard 4 weeks of annual leave. Then we get an extra week because we work weekends/public holidays. So 5 weeks of annual leave.

The roster we work is x2 10 hours shifts and x2 14 hour shifts so we work 48 hours a week. As a result we earn roughly 3 weeks worth of ADOs.

So it works out to be 8 weeks of paid leave. The common misconception is that we get 8 weeks of annual leave (or even 10 as stated by our beloved health minister) however if you break it down we get the same 4 weeks as everyone else and the rest is essentially compensation for overtime.

geckoGT · 03-11-2014, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dalonian

In Victoria, the standard 4 weeks of annual leave. Then we get an extra week because we work weekends/public holidays. So 5 weeks of annual leave.

The roster we work is x2 10 hours shifts and x2 14 hour shifts so we work 48 hours a week. As a result we earn roughly 3 weeks worth of ADOs.

So it works out to be 8 weeks of paid leave. The common misconception is that we get 8 weeks of annual leave (or even 10 as stated by our beloved health minister) however if you break it down we get the same 4 weeks as everyone else and the rest is essentially compensation for overtime.

Ours is a bit complex, we work 12 hr shifts that is loosely a 2 days and 2 nights arrangements but there are periods throughout the roster where we have multiple afternoon shifts or multiple day shifts.

My base rate of pay at the highest increment (we have 3 increments spaced at 2 years apart) is $29/hr which is less than an enrolled nurse gets paid in QLD.

We get 6 weeks annual leave which is good and two weeks accrued leave to make up for the fact that we average 40 hours per week, not 38. We do not get weekend penalties and will soon lose our night shift penalties as well in exchange for a "aggregate rate" that is unaffected by how many weekends or night shifts we actually work.

The end result is we work an average of 40 hrs per week, plus at least 5 hrs overtime, 7 days a week missing 3 1/3 weekends out of 6, not seeing our family for days on end and having no ability to plan social lives or sporting interests. We also have extreme pressures at work with the decisions we make with responsibilities far beyond the pay we receive. We deal with trauma, death, destruction and the darkness of humanity daily and we do it all for about $70-80k a year at the highest increment.

Itsme · 31-10-2014, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dalonian

You're not looking at all the issues. Looking at trauma, watching people die is not something everything can deal with, but when you combine that with an ever increasing workload, working nights EVERY week, regularly working public holidays and weekends and being paid peanuts means no one will be able to do it for the rest of their lives. Do you do two 14 hour shifts every week?

I've worked the hard shifts for 11 years, yeah it burnt me out eventually.
Next question!

Dalonian · 31-10-2014, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trublu

I've worked the hard shifts for 11 years, yeah it burnt me out eventually.
Next question!

And that is exactly what is happening, people are burning out and in some cases committing suicide at an alarming rate. So do we just acknowledge that that is what happens and have a defeatist attitude or do we try and prevent it by tweaking working conditions and supporting our emergency service workers?

Itsme · 31-10-2014, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dalonian

And that is exactly what is happening, people are burning out and in some cases committing suicide at an alarming rate. So do we just acknowledge that that is what happens and have a defeatist attitude or do we try and prevent it by tweaking working conditions and supporting our emergency service workers?

I have the greatest admiration for any emergency service worker, I truly hope they get more help but at the end of the day if it is getting to you it is time to get out, and that is what I did in the end & recommend this to any one else in the same situation.
Other alternative keep going until you break down! No thanks the human body & mind can only do so much.

geckoGT · 03-11-2014, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trublu

Well boys I have worked in emergency situations years ago & as the old saying
" If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen"
Not being rude but it is true.
Some people are cut out for it while others are not.

Great attitude there mate.

I wish you well with your inexperienced paramedic crew that have a combined total of 3 years experience between them when you or your family need them. I know I would prefer a crew with 20+ years experience between them managing my time of need. But you won't get that because all the experienced ones are now "getting out of the kitchen".

**Revolver** · 03-11-2014, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trublu

Well boys I have worked in emergency situations years ago & as the old saying
" If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen"
Not being rude but it is true.
Some people are cut out for it while others are not.

So much nativity in that statement.

Problem is, the heat is rising, and the kitchen is getting crowded. And there will be a point where everyone walks out of the kitchen. What happens then?

And you say that it wont happen, they wont strike, because they are good, self sacrificing people who put themselves out there. And that's what the Ambulance dept hold over them. They know they wont strike because its not fair on the people who need their help because they are (quite literally sometimes) innocent bystanders, who didnt ask to be in a car accident, didnt ask to get burned in a fire, etc.

And what if the majority of emergency workers cant "stand the heat" get out and only the ones who can do stay? Current staffing levels are too low. What are you going to do when your bleeding out after a car accident with no way to treat it yourself because your pinned? Beat you wish the AC got turned on in the kitchen awhile ago huh?