Toyota workers warned

[BroadyFord]

The ball is in their court.

Toyota workers warned

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politi...123-31bsj.html

Industry Minister Ian MacFarlane says the 2500 manufacturing workers at Australia's last car maker must accept cuts to their pay and ''archaic'' conditions or face Toyota's probable exit from Australia.
At a meeting with Mr MacFarlane and Trade Minister Andrew Robb, the Victorian government presented a secret plan to save Toyota's local manufacturing operations.
In an exclusive interview with Fairfax Media, Mr MacFarlane warned that 30,000 jobs could go across the industry if Toyota exited Australia. He urged workers to ''think about their futures'' and brushed off suggestions that he was a lone voice in the federal cabinet arguing for car industry assistance.
This month Mr Robb said companies lobbying for government subsidies should embrace economic restructuring, a view shared by many of his economically dry colleagues, who expect Toyota to follow Holden out of Australia.
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One Liberal MP, who asked not to be named, said Mr MacFarlane was ''out on a limb'' and that he and Treasurer Joe Hockey had very different views on industry assistance. But Mr MacFarlane said: ''I'm as dry as any of them. The issue is not whether Toyota is viable but can we get them to the point where they can compete with [Toyota operations in] Kentucky and Thailand.''
He left open the possibility of more aid from the federal Automotive Transformation Scheme, which has an estimated $1.38 billion left in it until next year, but said he would wait for the Productivity Commission to hand down its final report on March 31 before making a decision on co-investment.
Mr MacFarlane said Toyota was doing everything it could to continue making cars in Australia but the biggest threat was a battle with unions over pay and conditions.
''All I can do is plead with employees on the shop floor to think about their futures and the need for competitive work practices. I'm not comparing them to an assembly line in Thailand. I'm talking about the Toyota plant in Kentucky.
''The unions need to show leadership. The priority should be preservation of jobs, not maintaining archaic conditions in the award.''
Toyota is trying to slash labour costs by $17 million by altering workers' entitlements that allow four hours' paid time off to donate blood, cutting Sunday penalty rates from 2½ times to twice the normal rate as well as changing provisions that allow workers to take sick leave without a medical certificate.
The Federal Court blocked the company's attempts to cut costs by $17 million through amendments to 27 conditions in the workers' enterprise bargaining agreement.
The cuts to labour costs are part of an overall move to reduce production costs per car by $3800 by
2018 and keep the car maker in Australia.
Toyota will decide this year whether Australia will make the next-generation Camry. Toyota's Australian president, Max Yasuda, warned in December, after Holden announced its exit, that the company now faced unprecedented pressures.
The car maker built 106,000 cars and 108,000 engines in Australia last year and, unlike Holden and Ford, exported about 70 per cent of those cars.
Victorian Premier Dennis Napthine will seek a ''significant contribution'' from the federal government to help ensure Toyota makes the next-generation Camry in Melbourne after 2017.
The national secretary of the vehicle division of the Australian Manufacturing Workers' Union, Dave Smith, said the union could find common ground with the company on some of the cost reduction measures. ''Some of what they want we could get through quickly, but some of it is nonsense.''

[82XD393.3v]

wow double time and a half for Sundays thats a bit rich, and 4 hours pay for giving blood not to mention the prayer times for Muslims (not mentioned in quote) this is where the unions have screwed the employers and why Australia will lose most of its manufacturing.

[TheSneakiness]

They better take it, then they can realise what work is like for the majority of the rest of the country.

[BroadyFord]

More details here. Totally obscene. I'd kill for these conditions in my job!

I cannot see this ending well. My reckoning is 70% chance Toyota will close.

Victoria pleads for federal car assistance

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...257C6A00085FD0

VICTORIA’S Liberal state government has drawn up a detailed plan designed to keep Toyota Australia producing cars after Ford Australia and GM Holden have closed their factories by 2017.

The main plank of the plan appears to be the provision of extra financial support – believed to be around $300 million – by the federal Government.

The emergence of the plan coincided with another plea by federal industry minister Ian Macfarlane for car industry unions to help the company meet its cost-cutting targets and to drop their campaign of resistance.

Mr Macfarlane has been in Melbourne for two days this week, being briefed on the state government plan and attending a manufacturing forum.

The full plan will be delivered to Mr Macfarlane next week, according to a report in The Age newspaper. It was drawn up over the Christmas break under the guidance of state manufacturing minister David Hodgett.

Both governments are constrained by Toyota’s timing. The company has already announced it will make a decision on the future of the Altona operation by mid-year.

It is believed the $300 million of extra funding under the Hodgett plan would be allocated to retooling the Altona plant in preparation for the introduction of the new model. It is not clear whether this would come out of the Automotive Transformation Scheme (ATS) or would be in addition to any ATS grants.

Mr Macfarlane went on ABC radio station 774 in Melbourne today urging workers to help the company cut costs by allowing changes in their workplace agreement.

Late last year Toyota asked workers to consider immediate changes to their work conditions instead of waiting for the 2015 workplace agreement (WPA) to be settled.

Four members of the Australian Manufacturing Workers Union (AMWU) took action in the Federal Court to prevent any changes under the current WPA.

Mr Macfarlane said this block on making changes to the WPA was the single biggest threat facing Toyota Australia.

"The reality is that unless we can reduce the cost of producing cars in Australia, then the Toyota workers will not have a job in the long-term," Mr Macfarlane said in his radio interview.

He said changes would need to be made if Toyota was to regain some competitiveness against its international competitors, and if Toyota Australia was to become more competitive against other Toyota plants producing the Camry. "So what I'm saying to the workers of Toyota is think very carefully about the current situation, with the current reforms that Toyota is trying to put in place," he said.

"If those reforms don't take place then there's a very high chance that Toyota will not be able to compete and, therefore, the last car manufacturer in Australia will close."

In fact, it is not so much the Toyota workers that have stymied the proposed changes as the Australian Manufacturing Workers Union (AMWU).

The company asked workers to consider the proposed changes and vote in a plebiscite to indicate whether they would accept the changes.

In a similar plebiscite last year, GMH workers agreed to the requested changes, but that wasn’t enough to save the manufacturing operations in the face of strong cabinet opposition to continued car industry support in Canberra.

However, when Toyota approached its workers, four members of the Australian Manufacturing Workers Union led by Charlie Marmara, a senior convenor with the union, applied to the Federal Court for an injunction to prevent Toyota initiating changes to the current WPA.

The court ruled that Toyota did not have the power to modify the existing WPA, so no plebiscite was held. Toyota is appealing the decision. It believes workers would approve the changes if given a chance to vote.

In December, Toyota told the Productivity Commission that a decision would be made in the middle of 2014 as to whether the Altona plant would be able to transition to making the next-generation Camry, due out in 2018.

If it does not get approval from head office, it would mean the last Australian vehicle mass producer would close.

In a bid to stay competitive, Toyota told the commission it was aiming to reduce the cost of production of each Camry by $3800 by 2018. The proposed changes to workers’ conditions were part of this plan.

As a start to this cost reduction campaign, the company wants to make a total of 29 changes to the current WPA as a way of offsetting the two pay rises that have been agreed for 2014 and which Toyota is willing to implement. The first would be a 3.25 per cent rise in April and the second a 2 per cent rise in September.

Court documents show the 29 changes include the chance to cut down the mandatory Christmas break from three weeks to two weeks if demand in Toyota Australia’s Middle East markets is strong.

Workers would be given four months notice if Toyota wanted to cut the break to two weeks in any particular year. They would be able to take the leave at some other time. In addition, the company wants to change the overtime rules for very senior supervisors. At present, they start collecting overtime from the first minute after their normal shift. Toyota believes that, as senior employees, they should be prepared to put in a little extra time before clocking up extra pay.

The company wants to vary the rules so that overtime pay does not start until at least one hour after the normal shift ends. Another variation the company wants involves the pubic-spirited blood donor leave rules. At present, employees can claim four hours of leave after donating blood.

However, the company has found that workers tend to take the blood donor leave in clusters on Friday afternoons and on Monday mornings, compounding an absenteeism problem, leaving the plant under-staffed and hindering efficiency.

The company wants to cut the blood donor leave to two hours and have the blood collections done on site in Toyota’s own medical rooms.

The company also wants to tighten up the sick leave rules. At present, employees can take five days with a doctor’s certificate and two days without one. The company wants every day off to be supported by a doctor’s certificate.

Toyota Australia president Max Yasuda explained the need for the changes to conditions when he outlined the company’s intentions last year.

He said the company could not achieve its targets without changing some of the employment conditions built into the current WPA, some of which date back 50 years.

"We need to improve our productivity and reduce the cost of each of our locally built vehicles by $3800 by 2018,” he said.

“Although we have made progress, the speed of change has not been fast enough.

"We need to take urgent action because we are now seeing gaps in our transformation plans. We must develop detailed plans to close these gaps if we want to remain at the negotiating table for future investments."

This was a reference to the competition between Toyota plants for the right to produce certain models.

He said wage rises promised under the current workplace agreement and due this year were not under threat.

"We want to stand by our commitment to our employees and honour the two scheduled pay rises for 2014," Mr Yasuda said.

"During the coming weeks we will work closely with our 2500 manufacturing employees, their families and the union to explain why we need to modernise our work practices."

[irish2]

Originally Posted by BroadyFord

More details here. Totally obscene. I'd kill for these conditions in my job!

I cannot see this ending well. My reckoning is 70% chance Toyota will close.

More like 100%. It is only a matter of timing.

[Wretched]

We'll soon see where the priorities lie.

These recent events within the manufacturing industry are hopefully a wake up call for everyone, employees, employers and government. Hopefully all three can work together to ensure doing business in AU is viable. Now is the chance to change, to bring AU into the 21st century and show we're a player on the world market. Now is the time to sow the seeds for future generations to succeed. Hopefully people can see this opportunity.

[Adamz Ghia]

They only change I don't like is the need for a medical cert for each day off. That's a pain in the bum. Where I work it's two days without, 3 or more need a cert, also Friday and Mondays if they request one.

[TheSneakiness]

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

They only change I don't like is the need for a medical cert for each day off. That's a pain in the bum. Where I work it's two days without, 3 or more need a cert, also Friday and Mondays if they request one.

I don't think its that much of a burden honestly, if you are sick prove it.

For me its one day off without, two or more require cert, Friday and/or Monday also require cert.

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by Rapid_Axe

I don't think its that much of a burden honestly, if you are sick prove it.

For me its one day off without, two or more require cert, Friday and/or Monday also require cert.

So when you want an appointment with the doctor you have to contend with heaps of people trying to get a certificate, because they have a stomach bug or migraine and can't just take one day off.

I think some common sense a certificate for just one day is absurd. For one thing our GP's don't need their waiting rooms filled with people who normally would just take the day off in bed and taking up the time of the GP better spent with other patients who have reason to be there beyond their employer doesn't trust them.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

So when you want an appointment with the doctor you have to contend with heaps of people trying to get a certificate, because they have a stomach bug or migraine and can't just take one day off.

.

You can call a doctor to make a house call, so no waiting rooms.

Bulk bill ,often with no gap payment.

My son is a locum doctor and does it some evenings.

[xr6turboford]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

So when you want an appointment with the doctor you have to contend with heaps of people trying to get a certificate, because they have a stomach bug or migraine and can't just take one day off.

I think some common sense a certificate for just one day is absurd. For one thing our GP's don't need their waiting rooms filled with people who normally would just take the day off in bed and taking up the time of the GP better spent with other patients who have reason to be there beyond their employer doesn't trust them.

I see you haven't heard the latest, you can now go to the chemist and get a certificate for a sickie and your employer has to except it. The government brought this in to help free up the GP'S so next time you get the runs you now know where to go

[bangm001]

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

They only change I don't like is the need for a medical cert for each day off. That's a pain in the bum. Where I work it's two days without, 3 or more need a cert, also Friday and Mondays if they request one.

Im sure companies like that would have alot more people taking more than one day off when the person may have only required the one day,espcially if they have to a few hrs of the day getting a cert. (not to mention the ever increasing costs of visiting your local GP). If that were the case where i work I would take a min of three days off at a time...

[vztrt]

The employees can accept it...Toyo is still gone.

[Franco Cozzo]

Stiff **** boys its over, start skilling up and looking for new jobs, regardless if you take the new conditions or not it will close, just like Holden.

We have to provide certs for any days off even though you are legally entitled to two without a cert, they still argue and hassle and threaten if you dont, not a big deal, go to a bulk billing centre, I got the runs, here is a medical certificate.

[mr smith]

Won't matter. They are getting ready for an exit.

Shows that Ford have been the most honest in their appoach.

Ford - Make the anouncement without the blame game.
Holden - Blame the govt.
Toyota - Blame the workers.

Going to be a hell of a ride over the next few years.

[mik]

It looks like the workers are on a pretty good wicket, most of those concessions look pretty minor too me, possibly working an extra week at xmas ..... cool a few extra buks around at the end of the year.
Sad to say , but it is hard to see the last remaining car maker staying............ welcome to australia, import dumping ground of the world.

[Brazen]

Forcing them to get a medical certificate will probably cost them more as the doctor will probably given them two days off to be on the safe side.

At my work we can take 10 days off a year without a certificate, I think it works well.

[jd dad]

Nothing over the top in what Toyota are asking, as long as they give an iron clad guarantee that if workers accept them the plant stays open till a set date as a minimum. Really a small hit is better than out the gate for good even if it only gets another 4 plus years.

[XP6]

Gee 10 days, we get 2 "blueys" only because its shift work in a process with no stop buttons... a bit hard to get a cert for a sat nite in a country town with not enough Doctors and we refused to clog up the A&E dept as the company wanted.
10 days sick is the max per year and we get grilled after 7 days.

We did have unlimited sickys with no accumilation, it was the most stupidest thing they ever did... of course the lazy "GY" idiots rorted the hell out of it. The only good thing about it was for long term injurys/operations so we could keep our "skilled labour" supported without loosing them to the dole queue.

[MercuryT]

Toyota are doing the right thing, the conditions (especially 2.5 on Sundays, just madness....) need a rethink.

Sick leave is a tough one though, its easy to say "none without a certificate", but i'm not sure about other cities but it can be really hard to see a Dr my way on the odd day you are crook.

So I think a few still needs to remain for that reason...

[gtfpv]

I See plenty of room for negotiation there . unfortunately though if a company has the right ( THE RIGHT ) to seek cheap labour to cut costs , then we cant compete on any level . the problem is not unions or the companies , or workers .
It's free trade . we are going into trouble because of this . GLOBALIZATION is a stupid thing . It allowed capitalist greed to rule over everything , there are no laws preventing one person starting a company , and becoming a trillion air on the backs of homeless hungry people . thats pretty much whats happening to our world .
the formula doesnt work anymore .
i think our capitalist inflation ways will shortly crash , as there will be high unemployment and STAGFLATION . this means people wont even be able to buy cheap things .
i'm not blaming anyone here inthe case of the toyota situation , i think ultimately, they are doomed unless they get asian labour , aside from that we will all shortly follow with the road to poverty , aside from unfair top end wealth , unfortunately .
letting the poorest nations on earth , build evereything for the world , will make those very workers your only customers , and you dont pay them enough to buy your products .

[JG34JA]

lol "capitalist greed" GTFPV

Look at the greed in those conditions! Greed is everywhere, on both sides and here in Australia it's gone so far that the parasite is killing its host.

And if you want the definition of inflation it's an increase in the money supply permitted through the central banking system - more dollars created chasing the same commodities, prices of these rise - and the establishment of central banks is chapter 5 in Mr Marx's "Communist Manifesto", bet you didn't know that.

& those poorest workers become wealthier from their efforts and their savings drive consumption - relatively - and the cycle of prosperity continues, but only where policy allows PRODUCTION to continue

Hey Toyota, you are being looted blind - "Who is John Galt?"

[GREGL]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

I See plenty of room for negotiation there . unfortunately though if a company has the right ( THE RIGHT ) to seek cheap labour to cut costs , then we cant compete on any level . the problem is not unions or the companies , or workers .
It's free trade . we are going into trouble because of this . GLOBALIZATION is a stupid thing . It allowed capitalist greed to rule over everything , there are no laws preventing one person starting a company , and becoming a trillion air on the backs of homeless hungry people . thats pretty much whats happening to our world .
the formula doesnt work anymore .
i think our capitalist inflation ways will shortly crash , as there will be high unemployment and STAGFLATION . this means people wont even be able to buy cheap things .
i'm not blaming anyone here inthe case of the toyota situation , i think ultimately, they are doomed unless they get asian labour , aside from that we will all shortly follow with the road to poverty , aside from unfair top end wealth , unfortunately .
letting the poorest nations on earth , build evereything for the world , will make those very workers your only customers , and you dont pay them enough to buy your products .

In your many replies to the closures of the various manufacturing identities you have/are negative towards the capitalist way which is fair enough , it's your opinion . On the other hand you haven't put forward an alternative solution / theory that may solve Australia's current problems .
Unless of course your advocating something along the lines of a communist economy . After all what other alternatives are there ? Come on put it out there , what is your alternative to make this country strong again ?

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by GREGL

In your many replies to the closures of the various manufacturing identities you have/are negative towards the capitalist way which is fair enough , it's your opinion . On the other hand you haven't put forward an alternative solution / theory that may solve Australia's current problems .
Unless of course your advocating something along the lines of a communist economy . After all what other alternatives are there ? Come on put it out there , what is your alternative to make this country strong again ?

funny how many complain about the capitalist society in which we live yet reap the benefits from it to purchase their GT Falcons

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by GREGL

In your many replies to the closures of the various manufacturing identities you have/are negative towards the capitalist way which is fair enough , it's your opinion . On the other hand you haven't put forward an alternative solution / theory that may solve Australia's current problems .
Unless of course your advocating something along the lines of a communist economy . After all what other alternatives are there ? Come on put it out there , what is your alternative to make this country strong again ?

Top executive earns a max of 12 times the lowest paid employee. This excludes owner/operators of companies. If the executives want a payrise and bonus, everyone gets one. They all work for the same company and they are all employees. As for threats of leaving. Well you weren't there for the right reasons if it was only the pay and there are plenty of other Australians who will step up and take the opportunity they exit from. Far from a disaster I think they will create opportunities for people with true passion for companies and a desire to do well. It will destroy the boys club that pervades the current management structure.

All raw materials must be processed at least one level, before it can be exported.

All free trade agreements are null and void if the other country impose any direct or indirect tax that is designed to go against the spirit of the free trade agreement.

All foreign national businesses that setup in Australia and produce in Australia have their corporate tax reduced by a third compared to those who import only.

Having opportunities for all Australians to work in many sectors of trade and business is important for our long term viability and for the good health and welfare of all Australians. Government policy must always strive for a balanced economy where Australians are involved in all areas of research, manufacturing, science, medicine, agriculture, engineering, mining and others. The current imbalance in our economy must be seen as unacceptable.

Australian startups are given access to larger cash loans and investments from Government with less red tape.

Australian government agencies must always, always purchase Australian made goods wherever there is one available. Their purchases to be subject to Federal government oversight and fines issued if it is decided they breached these conditions.

Our transport and utilities are to stay in Australian government ownership for the good of all Australians. Those sold must be reacquired at the same market value they were sold.

Government policy is about our future, our kids future and our grand kids future. Not about what happens before the election. When things are deemed to be in the national interest Labor and the Coalition must have terms of reference to what they WILL NOT change should they come to power. This is particularly important as it comes to how we do international trade and relations.

The good of the many must outweigh the greed of the few. All government policy should reflect this.

Nation building is not an antiquated concept and each government must declare to the public what projects it will/is undertaking for us and future generations of Australians.

Australia is not "Open for business" as our current PM likes to waffle, but should be "Open for business partnerships". Companies that are willing to take a long term view of their engagement in Australia, will be favoured accordingly both financially and in opportunity for government contracts and co-investment.

No more tax cuts until it can be proved the public good is being well taken care of and paid for. In other words no buying votes which our most vulnerable members of society pay for with less services and support.

Australians come first.

[GREGL]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

Top executive earns a max of 12 times the lowest paid employee. This excludes owner/operators of companies. If the executives want a payrise and bonus, everyone gets one. They all work for the same company and they are all employees. As for threats of leaving. Well you weren't there for the right reasons if it was only the pay and there are plenty of other Australians who will step up and take the opportunity they exit from. Far from a disaster I think they will create opportunities for people with true passion for companies and a desire to do well. It will destroy the boys club that pervades the current management structure.

All raw materials must be processed at least one level, before it can be exported.

All free trade agreements are null and void if the other country impose any direct or indirect tax that is designed to go against the spirit of the free trade agreement.

All foreign national businesses that setup in Australia and produce in Australia have their corporate tax reduced by a third compared to those who import only.

Having opportunities for all Australians to work in many sectors of trade and business is important for our long term viability and for the good health and welfare of all Australians. Government policy must always strive for a balanced economy where Australians are involved in all areas of research, manufacturing, science, medicine, agriculture, engineering, mining and others. The current imbalance in our economy must be seen as unacceptable.

Australian startups are given access to larger cash loans and investments from Government with less red tape.

Australian government agencies must always, always purchase Australian made goods wherever there is one available. Their purchases to be subject to Federal government oversight and fines issued if it is decided they breached these conditions.

Our transport and utilities are to stay in Australian government ownership for the good of all Australians. Those sold must be reacquired at the same market value they were sold.

Government policy is about our future, our kids future and our grand kids future. Not about what happens before the election. When things are deemed to be in the national interest Labor and the Coalition must have terms of reference to what they WILL NOT change should they come to power. This is particularly important as it comes to how we do international trade and relations.

The good of the many must outweigh the greed of the few. All government policy should reflect this.

Nation building is not an antiquated concept and each government must declare to the public what projects it will/is undertaking for us and future generations of Australians.

Australia is not "Open for business" as our current PM likes to waffle, but should be "Open for business partnerships". Companies that are willing to take a long term view of their engagement in Australia, will be favoured accordingly both financially and in opportunity for government contracts and co-investment.

No more tax cuts until it can be proved the public good is being well taken care of and paid for. In other words no buying votes which our most vulnerable members of society pay for with less services and support.

Australians come first.

I don't think anyone would have a problem with the majority of your policies , however there would have to be a totally new party as none of the current ones advocate nor are capable of advocating 99 % of them due to self interest .

[mr smith]

The wealth shift is on. Bill Gates this week said there will be no poverty by 2036 or something, he knows this as he has access to the social engineers making sure the poorest will have a cut of the richest workers cash.
As long as we lap up the cheap crap from Asia we are screwed and probably deserve it.

[gtfpv]

I'M a worker my friend , i started working for a U.S pharma company as an apprentice the day after i left school. it was a gold watch job and a gold watch trade , ( fitting machining) . i saved money and also worked at a pub at night .
back then i could buy a house for about 70k tradesman were earning about 30k inc OT .
My prospects were good , there was manufacturing and production expertise in this country .
FAST FORWARD 28 YRS . i am now in essential services , my production prospects are pretty well gone , i havent gotten wealthy out of working . i coul'dve if i'd invested ( which is capitalism) < money for no labour .
over the years i seen peoples employment prospects grow by joining industries that produce nothing , ie law , accountancy, economic management, banking and investing . those of us manufacturers either changed jobs accordingly , or transferred to essential service industries . the essential service industries dont make people wealthy but pay a living . wealth comes from the capitalist type jobs which produce nothing , and save or cost cut .
my point being if the whole country aims to be an accountant , or lawyer or doctor , and wants to attain a good standard of living , who is going to pay them for thier services .
it's said even today that the gap between the rich and the poor is growing .
what we are seeing in this country is our work given to other countries . the reasoning is the workers want ( not need ) too much , and are ripping the company off, therefore the company is (forced)forced to seek cheaper labour to compete with cheaper countries, meanwhile nothing is coming down in price. ( shareholders and stake holders make money out of this ( < free money and quickly)
my children are now faced with fewer job prospects out there , there are many uni qualified professionals unemployed with no work , because a lawyer simply cant produce a car or house or food for us, therefore poverty is now moving to professionals also,as those trying to avoid it become competition ( more lawyers than required). leaving only attained wealth with only chances to increase or maintain .
blaming workers cause houses went from 70k to 700k , and electricity rises 6% per year , and taxes and private user pays systems end health and education costs etc , and seeking ( free money ) < thats what creates wealth now , free money for no labor . is a failing formula.
i have no fix . sorry . start your own business maybe and try not to pay people enough to make a living and i might have a slim chance of being able to obtain a decent living .
my only answer would be to stop free trade . as unionists and communists tried to do all along but failed . then we can produce our own and buy our own at the rate required , that would mean i buy a falcon or holden at 35k and not a lancer at 19k . but we let our corperate money spinners allow cheaper people to put us out of business and yet increase living costs here .
not being a financial analyst with a degree . houses <our mainstay costs and essential services have not come down , they are the things we NEED TO BUY .THEY ARE THE THINGS THE USER DOES NOT MAKE MONEY ON , ONLY THE OWNERS MAKE MONEY ON THESE ESSENTIAL SERVICES our sytem is flawed . whinging about it without doing something about it wont change that . moveing companies off shore definately wont change that unless houses and capitilist pricnciples fold into bankruptcy. then my children might be able to play on a level playing field with cheap labour . they can work for 10 bucks hr , and buy houses for 70k . to do this anyone with any money now, mainly the richest ones will have to lose it all, as the poorer people don't have enough left to lose . WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT THE BAD WATER IS FLOWING UP HILL . THE ONLY FIX NOW IS THE TOP TO LOSE IT ALL , THE POOR HAVE nothing to trade off, the middle class is starting to lose where most of the wealth is . the top will have to lose all as well

i have edited this to try and make more sense ( PLEASE RE READ )

[GREGL]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

I'M a worker my friend , i started working for a U.S pharma company as an apprentice the day after i left school. it was a gold watch job and a gold watch trade , ( fitting machining) . i saved money and also worked at a pub at night .
back then i could buy a house for about 70k tradesman were earning about 30k inc OT .
My prospects were good , there was manufacturing and production expertise in this country .
FAST FORWARD 28 YRS . i am now in essential services , my production prospects are pretty well gone , i havent gotten wealthy out of working . i coul'dve if i'd invested ( which is capitalism) < money for no labour .
over the years i seen peoples employment prospects grow by joining industries that produce nothing , ie law , accountancy, economic management, banking and investing . those of us manufacturers either changed jopbs accordingly , or transferred to essential service industries . the essential service industries dont make people woealthy but pay a living . wealth comes from the capitalist type jobs which produce nothing , and save or cost cut .
my point being if the whole country aims to be an accountant , or lawyer or doctor , and wants to attain a good standard of living , who is going to pay them for thier services .
it's said even today that the gap between the rich and the poor is growing .
what we are seeing in thand given to other countries . the reasoning is the workers are ripping the company off therfore the company is forced to seek cheaper labour to compete with cheaper countries, meanwhile nothing is coming down in price.
my children are now faced with fewer job prospects out there , there are many uni qualified professionals unemployed with no work , because a lawyer simply cant produce a car or house or food for us therefore poverty moving to those trying to avoid it . leaving only attained wealth with only chancves to increase or maintain .
blaming workers cause hoiuses went from 70k to 700k , and electricity rises 6% per year , and taxes and private user pays systems end health and education cost5s etc , and seeking ( free money ) < thats what creates wealth now , free money for no labor . is a failing formula.
i have no fix . sorry . start your own business maybe and try not to pay people enough to make a living and i might have a slim chance of being able to obtain a decent living .
my only answer would be to stop free trade . as unionists and communists tried to do all along but failed . then we can produce our own and buy our own at the rate required , that would mean i buy a falcon or holden at 35k and not a lancer at 19k . but we let our corperate money spinners allow cheaper people to put us out of business and maintain increased living costs here .
not being a financial analyst with a degree . houses <our mainstay costs and essential services have not come down , they are the things we NEED TO BUY . our sytem is flawed . whinging about it without doing something about it wont change that . moveing companies off shore definately wont change that unless houses and capitilist pricnciples fold into bankruptcy. then my children might be able to play on a level playing field with cheap labour . they can work for 10 bucks hr , and buy houses for 70k . to do this anyone wioth any money now mainly the richest ones will have to lose it all, as thew poorer people dont have enough left to lose .

Fair enough , your reasoning like mine is very simplistic and like most people commenting on these subjects is swayed by personal experiences . Yes house prices are out of reach of the poor , but they always have been ! When I first started work at 18 my pay was something like $100 a week yet houses were 30k or thereabouts , at 23 maybe $200 and 54k . It was ALWAYS hard to get into the market .

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by GREGL

Fair enough , your reasoning like mine is very simplistic and like most people commenting on these subjects is swayed by personal experiences . Yes house prices are out of reach of the poor , but they always have been ! When I first started work at 18 my pay was something like $100 a week yet houses were 30k or thereabouts , at 23 maybe $200 and 54k . It was ALWAYS hard to get into the market .

I agree with you . however i remember getting pay rises tied to inflation and the same penalty rates back then , they were pretty much a given . infact in 1988 , my pay went up around 15% because inflation sky rocketed . i didnt even know it was coming . the whole company got it white collar and blue collar , and as far as i know the whole country did . and it wasnt given in july , it was just a pay correction , we still got annual pay increases tied to inflation without any negotiation every july 1st.
. if your going to compare apples , does this happen today ? infact the company would shut down today .