Ford's local six could live on

[Road_Warrior]

http://watoday.drive.com.au/motor-ne...725-1hw2q.html

LPG development program hints at another life extension for Ford Australia’s locally made inline six-cylinder engine

Ford Australia has hinted that its new LPG engine developed for the Falcon will help the inline six-cylinder powerplant survive beyond 2015 — and even tougher clean emissions requirements.

Speaking at the launch of the Falcon EcoLPi engine in Melbourne this week, Ford’s base engine and alternate fuels supervisor Simon Flint said the Euro IV-compliant gas-fed powertrain was ‘‘capable of meeting future emissions targets’’.

This is the strongest hint yet that the inline six-cylinder will live beyond the 2015 cut-off that Ford will need to meet to comply with much tougher Euro V emissions targets — although whether it will continue to burn petrol is still under a cloud.

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According to Flint, the EcoLPi will use more fuel than the petrol version, but its strength is the lower overall emissions.

‘‘We can’t match the 9.9L/100km [fuel use] of the petrol as the energy density of LPG is at least 30 per cent less than petrol,’’ he says.

‘‘But the important point to make here is the CO2 performance of LPG, and the optimisation of benefit we’ve been able to achieve through the LPi program ... LPG produces about 1.5kg of CO2 per litre compared to 2.35kg for petrol.’’

‘‘It shows that LPG is really the greenest fuel, and the EcoLPi program brings the best out of it.’’

However, those numbers also suggest that any big future emissions benefits are more likely to come from the LPG engine rather than the petrol version.

Basing the new LPG engine on the current petrol one — the former EGas system, carried over from the former BF Falcon when Ford switched to its new FG Falcon in 2008, missed out on a lot of the work poured into the petrol engine’s development — means that the LPG engine now uses the same exhaust system as the petrol one, including a catalytic converter that helps it to meet the Euro IV emissions target.

Asked if the petrol version of the 4.0-litre six-cylinder engine would live on beyond the Euro V emissions targets, the response is quite restrained.

‘‘The engine is Euro IV compliant — could it go beyond that? It could with a development program, so there’s no reason why we can’t develop it further,’’ Ford's powertrain development supervisor Ian Cole says.

‘‘Both petrol and LPi [versions of the inline six] are capable of meeting Euro V in a similar scope to the catalyst program [helping with Euro IV],’’ he says. ‘‘Are we doing one? Wait and see.’’

Usually Drive are first to chime in with their doom-and-gloom crap with anything to do with Ford Australia, but this piece is interesting. Continuing the engine past 2015 (which is also the threshold for the supposed next gen large car) begs the question: what will it be fitted to?

[Polyal]

I guess you could see it also as talking up a new product thats about to go on sale.

Are you getting at the I6 stay and the architecture going? That would be a possibility but then they need to sit it in a car big enough.

[Hally]

Can anyone explain to me how a litre of petrol (or LPG for that matter), which would weigh approximately a kg, can give of 2.5kg of CO2 as per the article?

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Hally

Can anyone explain to me how a litre of petrol (or LPG for that matter), which would weigh approximately a kg, can give of 2.5kg of CO2 as per the article?

As above. I don't remember much about chemistry but I do know that those oxygen molecules that team up with the released carbon molecule are way heavier than the hydrogen that is given up as fuel.

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by Hally

Can anyone explain to me how a litre of petrol (or LPG for that matter), which would weigh approximately a kg, can give of 2.5kg of CO2 as per the article?

there's no accounting for accounting. i've always thought there was something going on there. i think their figures are a bit academic.

[Road_Warrior]

More info - GoAuto this time:

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...2578D8007F8071

FORD has given its strongest indication yet that the lifespan of its venerable Australian-built inline-six engine will extend beyond 2016 and meet the forthcoming Euro 5 emissions standard, following the development of the EcoLPi system just launched in the FG Falcon.

Speaking to GoAuto at the EcoLPi launch in Melbourne last week, Ford Australia powertrain engineering manager Pritika Maharaj said the new LPG system was designed to be in service “beyond Euro 4” – the current standard, which brought an end to the previous E-Gas system last year – as circumstances dictate.

While she would not comment on the life expectancy of the Geelong-made I6 in future Falcon and Territory models, Ms Maharaj said there was little point in Ford Australia investing heavily in the Euro 4-compliant EcoLPi system if it was to be replaced before long.

Ford Australia also confirmed last week that the EcoLPi system was compatible with higher-tech engines, including direct-injection units like the EcoBoost V6, which could replace the I6 later this decade and bring an end to local Ford engine production.

“You have to ask why Ford would bother developing the LPi engine that was ‘beyond Euro 4’ if it wasn’t going to have a future,” Ms Maharaj said.

The federal government announced last month that from November 1, 2016, all new vehicles in Australia must comply with Euro 5 emissions requirements, while stricter Euro 6 regulations come in for all new cars sold from July 1, 2018.

FordFalcon center imageLeft: Ford Falcon EcoLPi. Below: Falcon I6 powertrain.

‘Core Euro 5’ measures will also be introduced from November 1, 2013, although these will apply to cars, SUVs and light trucks new to the market from that date.

Ford Australia public affairs director Sinead McAlary told GoAuto in June that, while the I6 in all its iterations can be engineered for Euro 5, “significant time and resources would be required to do so”.

“One of the advantages of the regulatory timing we have received is that we actually have the time now to work through all the options to determine if that is the right course of action to take,” she said.

Integral to Ford’s planning will be the switch to a new-generation Falcon around the same time as ‘full Euro 5’ takes effect in 2016.

The ‘E8’ platform underpinning the current Falcon and Territory reaches the end of its life in 2016, with Australia adopting a new-generation global large-car platform under the ‘One Ford’ philosophy.

To form the basis of Ford’s future Mondeo, Taurus and various mid-sized SUV replacements for the Territory and (eventually) US-market Explorer, the new platform is expected to use transverse-mounted engines such as a derivative of the 3.5-litre direct-injection EcoBoost V6, and drive either the front or all four wheels depending on the application.

Not coincidentally, the FG Falcon’s EcoLPi system is not only unique in the world, it has been engineered to be adapted to other engine sizes and configurations.

According to Ford Australia’s base engine and alternative fuel supervisor, Simon Flint, while there is nothing in the pipeline from his point of view, EcoLPi can be applied to any future engine development, including the direct-injection units like the EcoBoost V6.

“Direct injection is the future,” he said. “And LPi liquid injection has the most future potential. The ability to apply the EcoLPi technology to essentially any high-level multi-point port gasoline engine is there. There is no real technical reason why you couldn’t do that.

“The biggest challenge is the different markets around the globe. Ford is now very much more a global engineering company – we’re not so much Ford Australia as Ford Asia Pacific – so on that perspective clearly the Australian engineering team is very proud of our achievement and believe the technology can go many ways.

“There’s no technological reason why you cannot combine LPi with direct-injection engines. Of course, that’s still in its infancy as far as that technology moving towards the customer is concerned.

“There are real engineering benefits in combining direct injection and LPi, too. It’s a big area of research at the moment, and that’s probably the next evolution.”

It is now known that Ford Australia originally set out to engineer an LPi system for the proposed Duratec V6 engine that was previously to be imported for the FG Falcon and the petrol-powered Territory from 2010 until a decision was made to stick with the Geelong-built I6.

Some of the $232 million that Ford Australia has invested in the latest Falcon and derivatives – with the help of $42 million in federal government green-car funding – has been used to develop the EcoLPi system, along with the TDCi V6 diesel introduced in the SZ Territory earlier this year and the four-cylinder turbocharged EcoBoost engine due to be released in the facelifted Falcon in the first quarter of 2012.

So theyre saying that the LPG version of the I6 may continue...maybe that airport tug plan has come up again.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

More info - GoAuto this time:

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...2578D8007F8071



So theyre saying that the LPG version of the I6 may continue...maybe that airport tug plan has come up again.

Airport tug plan never got off the ground.

Reading between the lines of that article I think the engineer is really implying that Ford have developed the LPi technology, and it wouldn't be too hard to fit the system to another engine ie V6. Thats what they were planning on doing pre 2010 anyway, at least initially, I have been told they dropped the idea of an LPG V6 further down the track before they started working on V6 FG, but with the LPi technology developed now it wouldn't be too much work to get it going on the Duratec.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Are you getting at the I6 stay and the architecture going? That would be a possibility but then they need to sit it in a car big enough.

It could go either way.

The engine could stay and the Falcon disappear but as you said you would need to find a vehicle that the I6 could fit. F series maybe but that gig is taken with the Duratec and Ecoboost V6's.

Then again the engine may soldier on along with a next-gen RWD Falcon. There would need to be a pretty compelling business case for it though.

[mik]

good stuff, nice to see a positive.

[Angeldust]

O2 is added to the carbon molecules increasing the mass of the resultant molecules.

[FPV GTHO]

F150 wont go I6, that'll stick with what its already got as its the bulk of Fords RWD engine/transmission development which has implications for Mustang and Falcon.

[Luke Plaizier]

The weight increase comes about because of the addition of Oxygen during the burning process.

http://www.comcar.co.uk/newcar/compa...s/co2litre.cfm


Lukeyson

[jpd80]

But.....but.....Drive have been telling us that the I-6 is dead and the next Falcon is definitively a Taurus....


Maybe Holden have been tardy with the cheque this month..........

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by jpd80

But.....but.....Drive have been telling us that the I-6 is dead and the next Falcon is definitively a Taurus....


Maybe Holden have been tardy with the cheque this month..........

Cheque might have bounced

I still don't think there is light at the end of the tunnel for the I6. All good things must come to an end

The engineers at Ford USA and Ford Australia can work together to improve the new stuff, think of the bright sides.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Cheque might have bounced

Nah it's just that Drive didn't recognise the payment made by Centrelink was on behalf of Holden.

[atec77]

Originally Posted by jpd80

But.....but.....Drive have been telling us that the I-6 is dead and the next Falcon is definitively a Taurus....


Maybe Holden have been tardy with the cheque this month..........

I will believe what drive says when they get a seeing eye dog and find their own butt

[GS608]

Interesting stuff..just delaying the inevitable though, unless FNA pull their heads out their **** and see how good a product the I6 and Falcon is. Maybe experiment with a Lincoln I6/I6T over in the states?

[janddbone]

One can only hope this artice is on the money...........................

[vztrt]

Good to see some positive news on the Falcon and the I6......sure we'll get 10 doom and gloom ones throughout the week.

[Bossxr8]

We've know for a while it can be made Euro 5 compliant, but it won't continue on past 15/16.

They are spending absolutely nothing on it or the plant except bare minimum maintenance.

Global powertrains are now part of One Ford, not orphans built in tiny numbers.

[Road_Warrior]

The only way I can see an I6 powered Falcon proceeding past 2015 is a G6ET-esque car for export to like the middle east. They'd love it and could care less about emissions and fuel consumption.

[z80]

LPG might produce less CO2 per litre of fuel, but because you need 30% more of it to go the same distance it actually isn't as green as the claims suggest.


All the claims for LPG usually focus on kg/Litre instead of Kg/kilometre.


LPG is all about the lack of taxes to make it viable.
Put more tax on it, as the Govt has said it would, and it soon loses it's main attraction...savings versus petrol.

Ford, Holden and everyone else know that the govt could sabotage a lot of their LPG investment overnight by putting the same taxes on it as petrol.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by z80

LPG might produce less CO2 per litre of fuel, but because you need 30% more of it to go the same distance it actually isn't as green as the claims suggest.


All the claims for LPG usually focus on kg/Litre instead of Kg/kilometre.


LPG is all about the lack of taxes to make it viable.
Put more tax on it, as the Govt has said it would, and it soon loses it's main attraction...savings versus petrol.

Ford, Holden and everyone else know that the govt could sabotage a lot of their LPG investment overnight by putting the same taxes on it as petrol.

There is just no please some people!!

Actually CO2 is measured as g/km!! So yes EcoLpi is as green as there say!!


http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor...721-1hqbc.html


"Emissions are better on gas, too. Even though the engine will burn through more LPG than petrol per kilometre, carbon dioxide emissions for the gas are only 203 grams per kilometre, compared with petrol's 236g/km."

[PoweredByCNG]

Originally Posted by z80

LPG might produce less CO2 per litre of fuel, but because you need 30% more of it to go the same distance it actually isn't as green as the claims suggest.

All the claims for LPG usually focus on kg/Litre instead of Kg/kilometre.

LPG is all about the lack of taxes to make it viable.
Put more tax on it, as the Govt has said it would, and it soon loses it's main attraction...savings versus petrol.

Ford, Holden and everyone else know that the govt could sabotage a lot of their LPG investment overnight by putting the same taxes on it as petrol.

Get your facts straight before posting your dribble on this forum.

Yes, litre-for-litre LPG has less energy than petrol so you do use more of it (between 20% and 30% more on average), but at the end of the day, you're consuming the SAME amount of energy while producing LESS CO2, CONSIDERABLY LESS particulate matter, LESS unregulated emissions components, and most importantly, relying LESS on imported fuel sources.

[z80]

Originally Posted by PoweredByCNG

Get your facts straight before posting your dribble on this forum.

Yes, litre-for-litre LPG has less energy than petrol so you do use more of it (between 20% and 30% more on average), but at the end of the day, you're consuming the SAME amount of energy while producing LESS CO2, CONSIDERABLY LESS particulate matter, LESS unregulated emissions components, and most importantly, relying LESS on imported fuel sources.

You check your own dribble mega mouth.

Carbon monoxide emissions from LPG are significantly more than petrol or diesel.

Especially with the primitive mixer ring delivery systems.

[Elks]

mmm I6, in FWD chassis should work great, so long as you dont mind a car that's 2.5m wide

LPG Injection on a V6 is the only thing that makes sense. Hopefully it will remain RWD.

[Jim5_0]

Originally Posted by Elks

mmm I6, in FWD chassis should work great, so long as you dont mind a car that's 2.5m wide

Ala Daewoo Tosca err sorry Holden Epica?

Inline sixes are inherently smoother than V6's & the twin cam Falcon engine is still one of the worlds great engines especially when you add the development dollars up (which by world standards have been very little)

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by z80

You check your own dribble mega mouth.

Carbon monoxide emissions from LPG are significantly more than petrol or diesel.

Especially with the primitive mixer ring delivery systems.

EcoLPI doesn't have mixer ring, the CO2 is less than petrol version.
There's less carbon atoms and more hydrogen in LPG compared to petrol.

[z80]

Originally Posted by jpd80

EcoLPI doesn't have mixer ring, the CO2 is less than petrol version..

yes...I know that, but all his povvo cars are mixer ring.

Originally Posted by jpd80

There's less carbon atoms and more hydrogen in LPG compared to petrol.

Sure...just use 30% more and produce more CO

[kpcart]

Originally Posted by jpd80

EcoLPI doesn't have mixer ring, the CO2 is less than petrol version.
There's less carbon atoms and more hydrogen in LPG compared to petrol.

are we talking carbon monoxide or carbon dioxide? carbon monoxide is bad, but carbon dioxide is not even bad for humans, we need it to live. you know our atmosphere consists of about only 0.27% carbon dioxide, and apparently we need a carbon tax in a country that has about 0.3% of the population of the world. :P