The feud, an exercise in marketing and mechanical engineering

[flappist]

Reading some of the current literature about the impending coyote I have been thinking back over the last 10 odd years of the "feud"

HSV make a vehicle CLUBSPORT, Ford make a similar vehicle T Series then suddenly HSV release a "hero" model GTS that is much dearer (50%) and quicker that sells is very limited numbers but gives them the 400m crown (which is all that is important in school yards and public bars)

GTS rules until a few years later when CLUBSPORTs and GTs are getting as quick as a GTS and Ford release the F6 which much to the annoyance of Holden (and Ford V8) enthusiasts takes the crown.
Suddenly (well after an aborted first attempt) HSV release the W427 for a mere 100% more grabs it back.

The W427, the quickest and most powerful Australian produced sedan.

For how much longer.......

The W427, 640Nm and 375Kw, truly an inspiration but it does have one "tiny" flaw, it is naturally aspirated.

The F6 has demonstrated very convincingly how a smaller engine developing a much lower maximum power but demonstrating a long flat torque curve can outperform much more powerful N/A vehicles.
Just ask any LSx or BOSS owner what they thing of the F6, just don't do it near children....

In a short while the new S/C V8 powered FPVs will appear. The initial model is "only" 330kw and 600Nm but I suspect it will, like the F6, demonstrate this 600Nm for a significant part of the rev range. There are also rumors of a GT-HO with more power and torque.

Now the question........

What do you think the odds are that the standard GT will be not only quicker than the current HSV range and F6 but in fact quicker than the W427?

[Iggypoppin']

I think it will trounce the W427 all over the shop.
It's the area under the torque curve, and out and out power does not always mean a faster car. With ZF the coyote SC will be a winner.

[Ryan]

I wish the W427 was also supercharged.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by Ryan

I wish the W427 was also supercharged.

Why didn't HSV use the LS9? They charged enough, didn't they?

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

Why didn't HSV use the LS9? They charged enough, didn't they?

I've always wondered that myself.

[jpd80]

Agree with above post, with the right tyres the F6 would beat the W427....

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Agree with above post, with the right tyres the F6 would beat the W427....

What if the W427 had fatter tyres than it came with?? I'd say high 11s are for the taking. There's the main issue with this; we have an idea of what power and speed the GT is capable of, but there is little known about the tyres. Once that is established we'll have a better idea who/how/what will be quickest.

Originally Posted by SpoolMan

King of what?
W427 may be the king of price and numbers but that's where it ends it isn't a king of any track..

The new GT 1st hurdle will be getting over a FG XR6 turbo 12.59@110 mph, FG F6 12.36, I am not saying it wont, respect is earned at the track, not on a keyboard and hype....
Time will tell until then we can keep talking about will it, could it, should it or gunna.

In fairness, Mark, were those times with 100% stock vehicles? I know the XR6T had an XR8 intake with aftermarket filter, and generally the XR6T in stock form is around the 12.8s mark, which is about 0.3s slower than the HSV. The W427 is also getting 118mph.

F6, though...

[data_mine]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

Why didn't HSV use the LS9? They charged enough, didn't they?

Couldn't call it a 427 then. The LS9 is a LS3 (6.2L) + blower.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by data_mine

Couldn't call it a 427 then. The LS9 is a LS3 (6.2L) + blower.

I am aware of that. With a motor like that they could call anything they wanted to.

It's a real shame, even as it is, it would have been an instant legend had they figured out how to make it at a reasonable price. The problem was (from memory) they had to include the extra work involved in removing the LS3 and fitting the LS7. Plus they had to absorb the cost of that LS3 which the donor car came with. I believe that was the reason the price was higher than what HSV wished for. In the end that price brought about it's early demise.
As an overall package, especially when considering a circuit, it will remain king if FPV think they can make a more powerful car without upgraded suspension, driveline and braking hardware.

[mcnews]

Originally Posted by Iggypoppin'

I think it will trounce the W427 all over the shop.
It's the area under the torque curve, and out and out power does not always mean a faster car. With ZF the coyote SC will be a winner.

No the brakes and suspension (let alone trick stuff like diff and box coolers) is what will make the W427 absolutely whop the pants off anything FPV will be game to produce. And so it should for the money. But if anybody thinks the Coyote GT will pants a 427 in all round performance I think they must be on drugs.

[Falc'man]

Without starting another hypothetical poll; "What tyres will the new GT/P/H/XYZ have?", I will say the following: The GT will match the W427 IF they improve on the current tyre quality and increased width.

Another poll would have been required if you want apples for apples; "If the F6 had bigger tyres, could it beat the W427 in a straight line?"

[BOSHOG]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

Without starting another hypothetical poll; "What tyres will the new GT/P/H/XYZ have?", I will say the following: The GT will match the W427 IF they improve on the current tyre quality and increased width.

Another poll would have been required if you want apples for apples; "If the F6 had bigger tyres, could it beat the W427 in a straight line?"

and what suspension will be used? there is more to a car than an engine/trans combo

[ELGT4me]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

Without starting another hypothetical poll; "What tyres will the new GT/P/H/XYZ have?", I will say the following: The GT will match the W427 IF they improve on the current tyre quality and increased width.

Another poll would have been required if you want apples for apples; "If the F6 had bigger tyres, could it beat the W427 in a straight line?"

Brilliant reply & oh so true!!!

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by flappist

W427 will still be the king?

King of what?
W427 may be the king of price and numbers but that's where it ends it isn't a king of any track..

The new GT 1st hurdle will be getting over a FG XR6 turbo 12.59@110 mph, FG F6 12.36, I am not saying it wont, respect is earned at the track, not on a keyboard and hype....
Time will tell until then we can keep talking about will it, could it, should it or gunna.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by SpoolMan

King of what?
W427 may be the king of price and numbers but that's where it ends it isn't a king of any track..

The new GT 1st hurdle will be getting over a FG XR6 turbo 12.59@110 mph, FG F6 12.36, I am not saying it wont, respect is earned at the track, not on a keyboard and hype....
Time will tell until then we can keep talking about will it, could it, should it or gunna.

when you say 'track', does that include ones with corners? i'm no holden fan, but i'm not one eyed blue either. i believe the w427 owns all other local products on a track with corners.

[Gobes32]

Another important point, these cars will never be as fast as their donor vehicles, i.e Ford get s/c coyote from Mustang GT and Holden score whatever LS is in the corvette, BUT, the aussie cars will never be allowed to be faster than the hero vehicle it received the motor from. For Holden this is not as much of an issue due to the ZR1 Corvette being so quick, however Ford have a great opportunity to even better the Mustang with Coyote. The yanks would never admit it, but a s/c GT with ZF auto and brembo's will be a very worthy comparison to the Mustang GT. I may be a dreamer and have no idea what I am on about, but I can't wait to see if I am right.........

[Kryton]

375kw N/A, when do you propose that Ford will ever reach such a number N/A?
They wont and the 427 will still be sitting on top of the pedestal.

Comparing S/C to N/A is just silly to start with.

[irish2]

Originally Posted by davway

Comparing S/C to N/A is just silly to start with.

FI or NA, a motor is an air pump primarily. One is just more effecient.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by davway

375kw N/A, when do you propose that Ford will ever reach such a number N/A?
They wont and the 427 will still be sitting on top of the pedestal.

Comparing S/C to N/A is just silly to start with.

I think that's incorrect. We're talking about the whole package, and specifically acceleration over the quarter mile. Not specific power outputs or type of aspiration or capacity. That's a different argument - refer to Roadrunner, it too may be pulling close to those numbers but with only 5 litres (which would make the 7 litre LS7 look a bit stupid).

If you were to say the W427, as a package, was greatest around a circuit then yes, that is almost unarguable, but even still you would need to factor in price because, again, that's what you're paying for said package.

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

What if the W427 had fatter tyres than it came with?? I'd say high 11s are for the taking. There's the main issue with this; we have an idea of what power and speed the GT is capable of, but there is little known about the tyres. Once that is established we'll have a better idea who/how/what will be quickest.


In fairness, Mark, were those times with 100% stock vehicles? I know the XR6T had an XR8 intake with aftermarket filter, and generally the XR6T in stock form is around the 12.8s mark, which is about 0.3s slower than the HSV. The W427 is also getting 118mph.

F6, though...

W427 done a 12.5 stock? I seen one in Sydney had a cam and tuned do 12.5.
What if the turbo car had another pound of boost from factory, what if, like the tyre being to small on W427 its all what ifs..

I think it time he took the $165 xr8 air-box off the xr6 turbo, the few mm diameter on the snorkel intake seems to putting many cars to shame even those that cost more the 3 times price.
We going to use general times or best times, I would expect the W427 to get big MPH look at the power its engine pushes out, but last I seen ET is and always will be king...
Factory FG F6 12.36 is the king, no keyboard times, real world times with no what if's, we shall wait have to and see if there will be a new king.

[FreddyDUZ747]

QUOTE:flappist-What do you think the odds are that the standard GT will be not only quicker than the current HSV range and F6 but in fact quicker than the W427?
In which fassion?

20 full tilt laps around Bathurst will see the W427 king easilly.

Straight line 1/4 sees the F6 proven almost 2tenths faster.

HO,well we dont know btu using your power figures above and Fords love with Dunlop Im still going to tip the F6 for bruisin and the W427 for cruisin tracks.

All depends where you like your bragging rights really.

[flappist]

Ummm, I did mention the "400m crown".

Yes I am quite aware of all the politics of 400m vs circuit (those who know me know my history and I do currently drive a datto) but to the majority of "performance car people" the 400m time is the benchmark.

My argument is that the F6 has demonstrated that in a large sedan a forced induction engine that demonstrates a torque curve that shows maximum from 1800 to almost 6000 rpm will deliver a better 0-400m time than a vehicle powered by a naturally aspirated engine of larger capacity and greater peak power.

The coyote while being super rather than turbo charged should, I suspect, still demonstrate reasonably similar characteristics so therefore the FG2 GT theoretically should be an icon.

One can only hope......

[04redxr8]

I kinda think that its irrelevant. What difference does a quarter time make to somone buying a car? If that was a decision making aspect, wouldn't the buyer look at which has the most potential? After all, if your concern is 400m times, you would spend more to get the time lower at a later date.

I think a better question would be, Do you think the new Coyote will be a better performer with more aftermarket go fast options? Will it have more potential for modding? Will the $/Kw ratio be more favourable?

Otherwise if you want quicker 400m times, mod an F6, or Holden 8.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by 04redxr8

I kinda think that its irrelevant. What difference does a quarter time make to somone buying a car? If that was a decision making aspect, wouldn't the buyer look at which has the most potential? After all, if your concern is 400m times, you would spend more to get the time lower at a later date.

I think a better question would be, Do you think the new Coyote will be a better performer with more aftermarket go fast options? Will it have more potential for modding? Will the $/Kw ratio be more favourable?

Otherwise if you want quicker 400m times, mod an F6, or Holden 8.

The majority of new FPV and HSV buyers never modify their car in any way.

Purchasing a GT, F6 or Clubsport is an almost purely emotional not logical decision.

How many GT owners bought their vehicle for any reason other than they had a V8 and a GT badge?

The V8s outsell the T6s by a large number yet the F6 is both quicker from the factory as well as lends itself far more readily to performance modification.

As far as the marketing not being based on acceleration....

Can you find even one FPV or HSV brochure or advert that shows lap times or braking distances or maximum turning G?

As opposed to 0-100km/h or 0-400m......

[04redxr8]

Originally Posted by flappist

The majority of new FPV and HSV buyers never modify their car in any way.

Purchasing a GT, F6 or Clubsport is an almost purely emotional not logical decision.

How many GT owners bought their vehicle for any reason other than they had a V8 and a GT badge?

The V8s outsell the T6s by a large number yet the F6 is both quicker from the factory as well as lends itself far more readily to performance modification.

As far as the marketing not being based on acceleration....

Can you find even one FPV or HSV brochure or advert that shows lap times or braking distances or maximum turning G?

As opposed to 0-100km/h or 0-400m......

I can understand that. But do you think that the decision to buy is based on a run completed by a journo, or is it more a case of I have $70k to spend, what Ford or Holden can I choose.

Remember that the typical buyer of these cars will 1. be an enthusiast, and 2. will no doubt already have a preference as to which brand they want. The rest will come down to bugdet and choice.

I still think any buyer who weighs the purchase decision on 400m times will mod their car. After all, if you didn't care which was quicker, why would you even look at the times?

[onfire]

What a beautiful country we live in, where we can get a practical sedan with super car power.

[burnz]

will the GT-H get MRC, AP brakes, dry sump, wider tyres, tuffer driveline???

[flappist]

Originally Posted by burnz

will the GT-H get MRC, AP brakes, dry sump, wider tyres, tuffer driveline???

MRC, no idea...there are lots of technologies to control suspension although I do note that MRC enabled the 317kw GTS to keep up with a 230kw 350Z in the 2008 MOTOR shootout.

AP brakes, doubtful....FPV have always used Brembo, the ones you get on BMW/AMG/McLaren/Audi/Aston Martin/Ferrari/Lamborghini/Porsche and of course Corvette, just to name a few. Brembo have actually owned AP since 2000.

Dry sump, doubt it....unneeded extra expense that will be compensated for by positive manifold pressure.

Wider tyres and tougher drive line.... quite probably and Ford have a bit of history making tough drive lines.

I am fairly confident however that it will not get ugly bright red seats or owner fit bow-tie performance upgrade badge.

[4Vman]

Tony, for the sake of clarity and consistency of discussion here are we talking "best" times recorded by journo's as reported in Motor or Wheels as a point of reference?

There seems to be too much use of "optimised" times, i.e recorded at a strip where traction is perfect, special launch techniques used, tyre pressures set perfect, no filter, 1/4 tank of "special" fuel used etc etc etc..... getting bandied about to muddy the water....

The mags, like it or not, seem to be using STOCK cars in real world situations and the more modest times seem more realistic from a day to day perspective and make better use for comparison...

Under those REAL conditions yes the W427 is king, but i suspect the new GT might be a very close match....

[flappist]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Tony, for the sake of clarity and consistency of discussion here are we talking "best" times recorded by journo's as reported in Motor or Wheels as a point of reference?

There seems to be too much use of "optimised" times, i.e recorded at a strip where traction is perfect, special launch techniques used, tyre pressures set perfect, no filter, 1/4 tank of "special" fuel used etc etc etc..... getting bandied about to muddy the water....

The mags, like it or not, seem to be using STOCK cars in real world situations and the more modest times seem more realistic from a day to day perspective and make better use for comparison...

Under those REAL conditions yes the W427 is king, but i suspect the new GT might be a very close match....

Yes exactly that. The journos use a bog standard car on a normal road surface with a full tank, all the bits still in the boot and a "normal" sized driver with the time measured on an accelerometer so you can't "creep back" on the start.

Until the torque curve of the coyote is revealed and the test is done it is all hypothetical but I suspect, like with the Typhoon, FPV are keeping their powder dry and will "walk the walk" rather than just "talk the talk".