Ford Warranty Question

[swanning_it]

Quick question to gauge the AFF members perception of a Ford new car warranty clause.

The clause according to my warranty and service guide states:

ITEMS NOT COVERED BY THE FORD VEHICLE WARRANTY

• replacement of items such as oil/fuel/air filters, emission control valves, spark plugs, wiper blades, engine and other belts, hoses and brakes and clutch linings

All pretty self explanatory, however my question pertains to the "hoses" item. I have a worn (holed) alloy coolant pipe which I'm told is not a warranty item as "hoses" are not covered by the new car warranty (except up until 3 years where they do cover them as a goodwill gesture....so I'm told).

My issue is, I believe an alloy pipe is not a hose and should in fact be covered under the warranty (as pipes are not excluded).

To explain the warranty, my vehicle has 98750 km on the clock and was purchased new by me in mid 2005 under a Ford Australia "Factory Bonus Time Extended New Vehicles Warranty" promotion which extended the new vehicle warranty to 5 years/100 000 km.

No one except Ford dealer workshops have touched the vehicle and all servicing has been done in accordance with the Ford service guide.

My Ford dealer claims they'd love to carry out the repair under warranty but Ford Australia has rejected it, but I don't necessarily believe that as the dealer has quoted me just under $500 to carry out the repair : . No way would Ford pay them that amount for a warranty claim! I've priced the pipe from the dealers spare parts dept. and it comes to a grand total of $71 (although their service dept quoted $93 for it.....30% mark-up over retail : ), so add some coolant and it looks like a disproportional amount for labour (estimated 1 hour job).

Given all my local Ford dealers at one point or another have attempted to bill me during various services for a pollen filter (about $100) which my vehicle doesn't even have, I've become fairly distrusting of Ford dealers in general (perhaps undeservingly) so I thought I might just throw this out to you guys for comment and see if you think I've got "WOOD-DUCK" stamped into my forehead or if Ford are correct in their assertion an alloy pipe is in fact a hose.

What do you think???????

Ian

[smally289]

Find the Customer Service Office number in the owners manual and ring Ford direct. Quite often Ford will help out with a warranty job they have rejected via a dealer. You can tell them everything you have told us, the dealer just puts the claim in and thats it. On paper (or screen) they dont get that extra info.
When I was working in a dealership I used to recommend this to customers when Ford rejected a claim on their car. More often than not, after they made the call, Ford would help them.
Give it a go.

[Spanrz]

The only time that an alloy pipe comes into question (and that fact that Ford itself has canned it), is that quality of the coolant is not up to scratch.
Meaning, that it has to be the specified coolant and was used it's entire life, and has been changed by Ford dealers at the specified maintenance time.
If you can show that evidence, you shouldn't have a problem. Then it becomes a dealer issue.

However, if the alloy pipe has been dented or scratched on the outside, causing the alloy pipe to rust and corrode. This will be no way allowed in a warranty claim.
Meaning, Ford is no way liable for a dent, scratch, mark on the alloy tubes that can have a detrimental effect on it's properties of containing coolant for it's lifetime.

If Ford can prove that it "wasn't" the coolant that created this worn area, or the alloy(properties) itself that caused the problem, then you loose. No warranty.
They must have determined that an external cause created your alloy pipe to wear.
It's a tough world.

If you disagree, talk to Ford and ask why they think it doesn't fit for warranty purposes.
You need to prove to Ford, it wasn't an external cause to get a better chance at warranty.

[ltd]

Sorry mate, but just buy the part and put it in yourself.
Frankly, ford has since 1999 been using insurance companies like sun and others to do the extended warranty, and they are not as generous as Ford is on the factory warranty. What most likely happened is the warranty clerk or your service advisor told the third party about your problem and they knocked it back.

As for the new Ford Extended Warranty? It's through Allianz and rebranded as Ford.

[XR Martin]

By definition a hose is a flexible tube for conveying liquid or gas.
Argue that point, that it is not a flexible tube, but a rigid pipe.

[bangm001]

Was your coolant replaced under 3 yrs?

[ltd]

Ring (02)8700-0100, ask for Karen Lloyd.
She'll tell you about the "Ford Extended Factory Warranty". It is Allianz, even their latest sales and optional "Ford Extended Factory Warranty" on cars sold recently have the same thing. They'll even send you a certificate.

What, you don't think it prudent that Ford should outsource a liability to an insurance company?

[swanning_it]

Originally Posted by ltd

What, you don't think it prudent that Ford should outsource a liability to an insurance company?

I think it is very prudent.....it is the fundamental concept of insurance.......but if they under insure their potential liabilities, that should not become their customers liability without at least first seeking the customers agreeance (through disclosure in the contract and on their warranty certificates). There has never been such disclosure with my documentation......that's my point, my warranty is by Ford, not some insurance company. If Ford insured themselves against claims, then that is purely between an insurance company and Ford.

On another note, it seems a Ford warranty is not the asset that it is with other manufacturers (I've had a few), so has anyone tried to negotiate a sales price WITHOUT a warranty?

[ltd]

Originally Posted by swanning_it

I think it is very prudent.....it is the fundamental concept of insurance.......but if they under insure their potential liabilities, that should not become their customers liability without at least first seeking the customers agreeance (through disclosure in the contract and on their warranty certificates). There has never been such disclosure with my documentation......that's my point, my warranty is by Ford, not some insurance company. If Ford insured themselves against claims, then that is purely between an insurance company and Ford.

On another note, it seems a Ford warranty is not the asset that it is with other manufacturers (I've had a few), so has anyone tried to negotiate a sales price WITHOUT a warranty?

Mate, if you read the terms and conditions (ie the fine print) you'll see a section about underwriting. This is where it is mentioned about an insurance company.
As for buying a car without warranty, it is impossible to do so under several trade practices acts. Basically, anything over a set amount must come with some warranty.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by ltd

Mate, if you read the terms and conditions (ie the fine print) you'll see a section about underwriting. This is where it is mentioned about an insurance company.
As for buying a car without warranty, it is impossible to do so under several trade practices acts. Basically, anything over a set amount must come with some warranty.

Yes but Ford can void the warranty...

Only problem is the warranty aspect is through Ford itself, and you buy the car through a dealer. Any discount is negotiated at the dealer cost. So you would somehow have to negotiate through Ford to drop the wholesale price because you dont want warranty. Good luck with that

[ltd]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Yes but Ford can void the warranty...

Only problem is the warranty aspect is through Ford itself, and you buy the car through a dealer. Any discount is negotiated at the dealer cost. So you would somehow have to negotiate through Ford to drop the wholesale price because you dont want warranty. Good luck with that

Ford will only void the warranty if the owner has done something which they deem endangers the reliability of the product (ie racing, modifying or abuse - as described in the beginning of the owners manual); or if the owner fails to maintain the vehicle (ie, turns up on a tow truck having done 50,000klm and never being serviced).
You are right though about the differences between dealer negotaitions and ford, but as I said under several trade practices acts they cannot sell a new vehicle without warranty. Yes they can void it after the sale should you breach your conditions of the warranty, but not before title has passed.

[swanning_it]

Thanks for the input.

Actually it is all much as I expected.

Yes, I looked up the dictionary version of hose and came up with the same answer.....flexible, an alloy pipe is rigid, so it is not a hose (according to the Oxford dictionary) and hence not automatically written out of the warranty regardless of cause.

The pipe does show signs of electrolysis pitting (?) at the hose connections but that was not the issue that caused it to leak. The leaking is definitely external wear from contact with the bracket of another pipe. The reason the holed pipe contacted the bracket of the other pipe, was because the damaged pipe brackets (two, welded to the pipe) were not secured. One bracket had the bolt missing altogether, the other was bolted but loose (the bolt was tight in the head but only about 1/4 the way in, which makes me wonder if it was an incorrect thread...still to check that) which meant the pipe was free to vibrate and being semi held by the one bolt, meant it wore in the exact same spot. That bracket also had its 10mm mounting hole elongated by the wear against the bolt to about 25mm long and the bolt also had its thread almost stripped by the bracket vibration and wear.

In the past, at 10 000 km, the timing tensioner loosened (a well know fault which has since been recalled by Ford....but that's another story for another time) and the chain came off, smacking into the head and cracking it. The head replacement and timing tensioner fix, were all repaired by Ford under warranty, so I'd suggest, since the vehicle has never been anywhere but Ford dealers, the dealer who fixed the head, failed to replace one bolt, and failed to tighten up the other. Both bolt fixing points are in the head casting. Since they had the vehicle for 2 months that time, I find it disappointing (to say the least) that they couldn't find 5 minutes to do up two bolts, or at least check the quality of their workmanship (or lack thereof).

So yes coolant was replaced within 3 years. Apart from the head replacement (which would have required new coolant), the service guide stipulates replacing the coolant every 4 years max. My vehicle has had two services (by Ford) since it's 4th birthday!

And yes, I've ordered the pipe and will not be paying the money demanded by Ford to "fix" what would appear to be their problem. Of course I won't be replacing it myself (I'm paying a suitably qualified mobile mechanic to do that..........hate to lose the rest of the warranty....which is just over 11 000km, not 1000 as I initially stated in the OP). It just gets to me that someone stuffs up (most likely a Ford dealer), and I get to pay for it. Not only that, but the service manager quite smuggly told me I couldn't drive the vehicle away from their service centre (despite me driving it there) as the leak could damage the motor and void warranty. This, I believe was their attempt to force me into paying $500 for a $200 job. I used a tilt tray instead......more to stick it right back to them (yes I know...childish). If it is warranty work, I will be billing Ford for it (and I advised them of that prior to ordering the tilt tray).

As for the warranty. I'd argue the points made here. Ford supplied me with an extention to their NEW car factory warranty as part of a "Bonus Time" promotion (essenially to get me to sign the sales contract at the time). Not some dealer extended warranty. All the documentation I have state this fact. Not one mention has ever been made (either in writing or verbally), which suggests anything to the contrary of the NEW car factory warranty conditions being bumper to bumper (subject to some stated exclusions) with no insurance company involvement. If Ford chooses to insure their possible future obligations in respect to that warranty, then by all means.......but that is between Ford and their insurer. Nothing to do with me. Ford (not an insurer) warrants that my vehicle will be covered by the terms and conditions of the New Car Factory Warranty for a period of 5 years, 100 000 km (which is stated in writing on their warranty certificate). If their insurer (if they have one) does have exclusions, it does not immediately follow that Ford has the right to exercise those same exclusions. The warranty is part of the contracted sale and they would be in breach of the sales contract to do so (it doesn't mean they can't try though)!

I tried the Ford lack-of-Customer Service number on Friday, and they agree with the dealer. What I don't know (as I didn't know on Friday to ask them) was just what (mis)information the dealer may or may not have told them?

Ian